Angel Millar sheds light on the mysterious journey of the soul in this deep dive into the meaning of our lives. He explains the three stages of initiation that we can attain over the course of our lives, what each one means and why we need to understand it in order to understand our own life journey.

You can learn more by visiting Angel at his website, and reading this powerful and deeply researched book. Get Three Stages of Initiatic Spirituality in our Amazon store. Click here.

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  1. Only having listened to 20 mins of the interview so far, one thing that struck me is the male-centric language Angel is using in connection with and when talking directly about ‘the initiate’. I understand that free masonry is clearly massively male dominated and the term Magician, certainly evokes an image in my mind of a male… but is there more to this? What role have women played in the initiatory traditions, and is this bias there for a historic reason other than domination / control… also, is that bias shifting at all?

    1. Thank you for your comment. I had to make peace with his male-centric view in order to be able to this interview. Every example he used was male identity issues, male god images, and male wisdom keepers. When the author suggested taking up cooking, I stopped listening.

      1. As souls we can become the mother of God in human appearance:

        While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.
        Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

        He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
        ~Matthew 12:46-50

        What is doing the Father’s will?

        “And this is the will of Him that sent Me: that every one who seeth the Son and believeth in Him may have everlasting life, and I will raise him up at the Last Day.”
        ~John 6:40

        Then said they unto Him, “What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?”

        Jesus answered and said unto them, “This is the work of God: that ye believe in Him whom He hath sent.”
        ~John 6:28-29

        Believing is an act that takes place in the one who does the work of believing. In this case it is God Who as the human we seen to be believes that indeed He is God. Because He send Himself in our appearance to this world. Also now, in what seems to be but our human appearance, but which is really God’s. God is our true Being, our true Self and Identity.

        And when we allow God in and as our Soul to believe “I am God, be it in human appearance”, our soul becomes the mother of God here.

        The Spirit took the initiative to incarnate as if a male seed of consciousness or light. And the Soul receives is as if a women, and bears a child, in this case a Divine Child: God.

        “To him that believes in Him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
        This is the work in which we may be doing the works of Christ, for even our very believing in Christ is the work of Christ. It is this He works in us, not certainly without us.”
        ~Augustine, Tractate 72 (John 14:10-14), § 2.

        And when we find fault with our human self and appearance, it is God Who finds fault with His human appearance and self, as we now:
        “The Son Himself says, ‘Your Eyes have seen My imperfect being. That which is imperfect in My Body, Your Eyes have seen’.”
        ~Augustine, Sermon 85 § 6.

        That is still undergoing the crucifixion…

      2. Whitley, the links in the above post make the text overflow over the right side border as you can see. (At least I see that in my Brave, Chrome, and IE11 browsers.)
        Can you have it removed as I have re-posted it without those links and it appears as it should now?

    2. I, too, was uncomfortably aware of the male-centricism, until close to the end. Nary an acknowledgment of the Triple Goddess’s archetypal functions of maiden, mother, crone, the female parallel to the male stages of craftsman, warrior, magician. The androgeny of the magician was acknowledged in the closing section.

        1. My comment was not a criticism of Dreamland and the topics of discussion found within it’s archives. But it seems like Angel’s area of focus is like a coin collector only interested in the ‘heads’ of their collection, leaving the merits of the ‘tails’ to be discussed by other more tail-centric researchers. I’m probably being naïve but surely the whole coin is of interest?

          1. Yes, depth matters.

        2. Yes, thanks Whitley, and when the focus of an interview has been on the feminine, this is made clear by the title and it is addressed in the discussion. The difference here, and what I find off-putting, is that the fact that the female half of humanity is almost entirely ignored is not mentioned. It’s just taken for granted. That it doesn’t ever occur to the two speaking to acknowledge (or notice?) that this discussion is focused on the male, that neither feels any need to mention this, that speaks volumes. (I want to think that Anne might agree…)
          I love this website and and I enjoy the Dreamland podcasts in particular. Thanks for all you do, Whitley.

    3. I had similar concerns, but stuck through the end…I’ll leave it at that.

      BUT… That being said, there is an excellent book about the exact type of memories that Millar addresses and I highly recommend, ‘The Memory Code’ by Dr. Lynne Kelly, along with her follow-up book, ‘Memory Craft’:

      1. I havent had the chance to listen yet, BUT…..
        I am so happy to see YOU, Cosmic…you have been missed. Well, i watch for several folk, Sherbet and Von Hausenburg to name a few. Most everyone here has a great take and thought provoking comments, but Im glad to see you still active CL.

        1. Thanks for your kind words, Harley! The last year has been a challenge, but, yes, still active. Always here in spirit…🙏

    4. I’m 25 minutes in and I have not heard those triggers. What should I take personal in this person’s information?

      1. My question, or comment regarding ‘The initiate’ was why Angel was referring to them as male…and wondering why that was. Whether there is some historical or other reason for that, or is it just a mode of speech? So again, to balance things out, what part do females play in the initiatory role? It can’t just be one-sided, surely? Also there is no expectation for you to be triggered by it…but I thought this bias was worthy of note.

        Quote (minus a few ums and ers.) from about 10 minutes into the free version…

        “…and re-orientate the ‘initiate’ towards what is beyond that and before that, which is the Golden Age. So kind of gives him a glimpse of the harmony of the Golden Age when everything was allegedly in harmony with man, with Nature, Nature with the Deity…and it re-orientates him towards, in a sense, through his own death by trying to get him to, in a sense, create his own Golden Age within, whichever age he might find himself, including in the Kali Yuga, or the Iron age…”.

    5. Thank you, Sherbet UFO,

      Just to quickly address the issues you raise: the male language, the question of whether I am using male terms for domination and/or control — and to briefly address female intiation as well. Throughout history, there have been male traditions of initiation and female traditions of initiations. I am less aware of the latter, and, but to name only a few modern examples, Wicca is, from a certain perspective, female-oriented (I wouldn’t say female-dominated though the high priestess is, I believe, the most important figure in a Wiccan coven, and Dianic Wicca is only open to women, not men). There is an all-female lineage of Freemasons, which emerged out of “regular” Freemasonry and which recently founded a Grand Lodge in Washington D.C., which has been recognized by the United Grand Lodge of England (really, the mother lodge of Freemasonry). And, of course, there are authors on female spirituality, such as Barbara Walker. Walker is probably best-known for her Tarot, but she has also published many works on women’s spirituality, such as “The Woman’s Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets” and “Women’s Rituals,” to name only two. (She also has her own knitting project, as well.)

      As mentioned in the interview, in my book I focus on the archetypal vocations of craftsman, warrior, and magician, firstly, because it has been claimed these formed the basis of ancient societies (as castes — in Hinduism (or more properly Sanatana Dharma), still today, you have the brahmin (priest/magician) caste and the kshatriya (warrior) caste), etc. I also focused on these because you find the craftsman, warrior, and magician (broadly speaking) turning up later in cultures both east and west, e.g., in Sufism, which drew together the artisan guild structure (craftsman) with Islamic chivalry (futuwwa), and Sufi/Islamic spirituality (magician — i.e., spiritual guidance) and of course in Freemasonry (Craft Lodge, Templar degree (warrior), and Rose Croix and Knight of the Sun degrees, influenced by alchemy (magician)). And, of course, you find them in such figures as Samurai Miyamoto Musashi (who was a martial artist, accomplished painter and calligrapher, and who also practiced meditation and introspection).

      As mentioned, also, these three archetypal vocations and castes reflect my own life journey, e.g., studying fine art painting and writing (craftsman), practicing martial arts (warrior), and practicing spirituality on a daily basis (magician, broadly speaking). The book is intended to help people actualize there whole Self, not just one side of themselves, and I believe this model, which can be found in probably every culture in the world in different ways, is a good one, and it is the one that I have experienced. For me, it is essential to write from my own understanding and experience. That is the only way one can write authentically and pass along anything of real value.

      1. Seriously? “She has her own knitting project as well.” Wow. The High Priestess is an ESSENTIAL, central component of ALL of these high magick derived covens of ceremonial theatre contrived or originating during the 19th century, and I am including Freemasonry, Wicca, and Nazis in that group. The axe is actually quite frequently associated with the female neolithic or even paleolithic imagery, most famously in Minoan carvings, but of course, we do not know why. It is likely a pre-flood symbol that is lost to us. Even the pre-Milesians knew very little about the civilization before the cataclysm. Whitley, based on Hamlet’s Mill, don’t you think the axe symbol and the gods could be constellations and keys? I have studied, and now teach mythology and folklore in college, for many years, although not as long as I have been a mystic and shaman, and I am starting to believe, after studying the works of Stephen Buhner and others, that the archetypes and myths are actually those of the earth. And we tell them, thinking they are about us, but As Above, So Below. I have studied kung fu and a martial form of tai chi for years of which my husband is a black belt, and it is really about earthing and understanding gravity. That understanding is where the jedi tricks come from, which I have seen the Grandmaster in my lineage and a master do in person and it is quite amazing. What I have not liked about it, personally, and the main reason that I finally stopped, is the amount of time and practice in the art of war and appropriating the chi for that purpose. I prefer a more spiritual use of the chi. I’ve studied Chinese medicine and am a polarity practitioner and massage therapist myself, and what Angel is describing here are the the basic precepts of the healing arts.

        1. Yet would I ask, are the meaning of ancient symbols really lost to time or can we still look within to make sense of them? Imagine a Minoan priestess wielding a dual-horned…honed l-a-b’rys (‘lab’ from labia) as she thrusts it into the dual-horned b-u-ll. This amazing ritual death, to me, becomes a l-a-b’or of love, a birthing, the birth of the “Phre-Mas”-son….Sun-Son…Sol-Soul. (“Phre-mas” with the ancient Egyptian meaning “Child of the Sun”). I’d say the mind is the only Freemason and the monuments of its personal archeology are for all eternity.

  2. The Song of Wandering Aengus
    W. B. Yeats

    I went out to the hazel wood,
    Because a fire was in my head,
    And cut and peeled a hazel wand,
    And hooked a berry to a thread;
    And when white moths were on the wing,
    And moth-like stars were flickering out,
    I dropped the berry in a stream
    And caught a little silver trout.

    When I had laid it on the floor
    I went to blow the fire a-flame,
    But something rustled on the floor,
    And someone called me by my name:
    It had become a glimmering girl
    With apple blossom in her hair
    Who called me by my name and ran
    And faded through the brightening air.

    Though I am old with wandering
    Through hollow lands and hilly lands,
    I will find out where she has gone,
    And kiss her lips and take her hands;
    And walk among long dappled grass,
    And pluck till time and times are done,
    The silver apples of the moon,
    The golden apples of the sun.

    1. Whitley, if I may be a bit presumptuous (I love Yeats), I can guess why Anne wanted you to memorize this poem. With its grand title, we recall, “The Dream Of Aengus,” a tale in which the Tuatha de Dannan’s Aengus Og, Lord of Love, searches for a swan maiden with whom he, himself, has fallen in love. Yeats also tells us to consider the Greek folksong, “Fruit of the Apple Tree.” Yet, when we begin reading, it seems but a diminuative myth indeed. Instead of godlike love there is but the vague inner fire of an ordinary youth, instead of apples a single red berry, white moths in place of swans, a trout rather than a swan princess! Still, the hazel wand portends magic. Too, white moths symbolize death and the trout is pulled from the waters of the subconscious. It is a liminal place; there is a threshhold crossed. Now, the inner fire becomes a hearth, the fish a silvery haired girl who calls his name in a trout-boned whisper, the berry…the apple blossom in her hair. He chases after this dream of a girl until, at last, he will take her in hand. The place where he with his golden fire and she with her silvery hair will meet…in the lyrical expanse of the heavens, among the gold and silver apples of eternity. That is certainly where your love, Anne, waits for you!

        1. You’re welcome…actually, thank you for the compliment, I love the layered meaning of Yeats’s poetry.

    2. I think she may have been asking you to remember a place where you could meet. She was trying to get you to remember so that you could know the coordinates of what to co-create. This is a garden on the other side. You might look at Hank Wesselman’s work on shamanism. He has a book about building your garden in the imagination. Thank you for reminding me about that by the way. I need to revisit the topic myself.

      1. Or perhaps she was but beseeching you to take counsel in the Blakean auguries of innocence…to divine the soul spark within your flesh, to find eternity in a single passing blood-red drop, to cast your infant faith into the twilight stream where dwells the infinite and know with certainty that she, your eternal love, will find you there.

          1. I believe that you are right!

  3. In union with the Creator we lovingly willed there also be others who would enjoy what we enjoyed. So we imagined being those others, in this case humans. Knowing that to experience being but humans would be like drowning in a sea of tears compared to our original happiness.
    Yet we also knew that one day we would begin to remember these things, and Who we really are. Now also as the humans, so also they would begin to enjoy what we enjoyed before experiencing being but humans.
    All entirely to the benefit of the humans, as we would but have the joy back which we had given up for the humans to have it back again when also they would have it, and thus we also, yet now also as the humans.
    In the mean time it would be a battle between this memory and what was experienced as human reality, a seeming reality which would appear so convincingly to contradict that divine memory.
    Until finally that divine inner knowledge would break through, and our divinity be recognized also in this world. Which would be like awakening from a nightmare… and now a sharing of an eternal living inheritance. As Who we are in truth, we had died for it as far as consciousness of our true Self was concerned, so also the souls here would know and enjoy that each one of them is the One Who would be willing to go through all that just to make others as happy as He is.
    That is that God Who is reading this now in human appearance, And that this is true for everyone.

  4. Thank you for this great discussion. I just ordered Angel’s book.

    We regain our magic when we own our darkest part and free ourselves in the process.

  5. A truly great interview. Many thanks, Dreamland never disappoints.

  6. Thank you for interviewing Angel Millar. I would like to see more interviews with those who are versed in the Western Mystery Traditions. I have gone down these paths and the visitors respond to the work involved like they do for the ‘sensing exercise’. There are indeed other western initiatory orders that women not only excel in but are iconic pillars of their crafts. If you don’t know of her, Dion Fortune is a good place to begin looking.

    As for the masculine heavy message, he is speaking from the position of “Fraternal Masonry”. It is a men only institution, ie a Fraternity. There are options for women who are interested in Masonry (NOT Eastern Star). Whitley interviewed Bob Hieronymus who is a member of Co-Masonry which includes both sexes. Bob’s wife wrote an excellent book on the Mysteries that I have in the library of the masonic lodge I belong to.

    As a point, the feminine in Freemasonry is hidden and subtle. Masons refer to Masonry itself in feminine terms. The lodge where a Mason is raised is called his Mother Lodge. We strive after a ‘lost word’ that was lost when the Son of the Widow of the Tribe of Naphtali was murdered because he wouldn’t betray his obligation to keep secret the Wisdom of Building and hand it over to brute opportunistic men. The lack of the feminine is intentional. The Divine Feminine in Masonic teaching is intentionally hidden because it is a very large part of what constitutes the ‘lost word’. Why are they referred to as the ‘Sons of the Widow’? What shape does the masonic symbol of the square and compass insinuate?

    Another point about the heavy masculine side of Millar.
    There is a movement within Fraternal Freemasonry that is very aware that the masculine archetypes that are displayed in the public eye are poor examples of what a man should be. Think of our politicians who are really greedy opportunists. The rich CEO who only thinks of greed and blindly acquiring more for himself at the expense of the earth and other people. Corporations, having been declared the rights of a human, also represent the malefic and horribly damaging side of masculinity. These are the examples of manhood that many brothers hold upon entering the lodge. These are all negative and need to be undone.

    So, many men who come into the Fraternity searching, find that these very archetypal ideas of manhood that are so damaging and completely ingrained in the profane world, need to be undone before any real searching for the ‘secrets’ of masonry can be engaged.

    This often leaves a gap in understanding what it is to be a man. Authors like Bro. Angel offer some ideas on how to resolve this so brothers can move forward as beneficial members of a society, and in turn begin the search that leads to the understanding of regeneration and reintegration for all of humanity.

    As a final note, if the masculinity causes you to react, that is usually a sign of a lack of balance. I agree whole heartedly that the feminine is largely ignored in our society and that we are out of balance. The developed masculine side of humanity is also lacking in value and balance. It is an equal and vital part of each of us and needs as much attention as the triple feminine and other aspects of goddess for each of us to become whole. As most of you here know, men and women both have these energies and both must be balanced. If it upsets you that you can’t go a whole hour without hearing about the balancing energies of the feminine, I would guess that possibly your masculine side needs attention.

  7. This was a great listen, and you led a very nice discussion, Whitley. One of my takeaways was that I should attempt to spend at least parts of each day focused on the Craftsman (art and music), the Warrior (exercise and health), and the Magician (spirituality and philosophy). Toss in some evening meditation before bed (and time to reflect on the things I’m grateful for), and I feel like it will let these days add up to something really wonderful.

  8. Author

    Nope what? To Mike’s comment, the show, life in general, the universe? Would love to hear more.

    1. Sorry for the snark. Definitely not directed at you. You did the best that you could. I should have removed the “nope,” because I did respond in a few places up the stream here after I posted that.

  9. The comments to Angel’s interview are lively! He made a comment that progress of mankind cannot be measured by advances of technology. That made a connection in my mind, and I immediately started thinking about how a person progresses. Being an elderly woman, I have spent a lifetime pushing against patriarchal attitudes and standards. Now, my contribution is in facing myself and others without applying stereotypes. This interview is meaningful for me. I can use those archetypes right now. I love the suggestion to take up cooking as a way of connecting with memories. During our Covid shutdown, my husband wanted to learn to cook, and went straight to the tattered Russian language cookbook of his mom, with beautiful and sentimental results. Thank you for this interview.

  10. Finished interview and will get the book. My husband and I had our own interesting discussion on somatic memory. Thank you Whitley and Angel.

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