Archived podcast for paid Subscribers only. Please login to access.Is it possible to square all of the high strangeness phenomena reported in ufology with aliens or time travelers? David says yes, Jeremy says no, and Stephen says sometimes in this well-rounded roundtable discussion of what we believe is probable and why. And as tidy as that sounds, it wouldn’t be The Experience without a few unseen twists and a Trickster ending winking and nudging at the whole thing!
From Whitley: Get ready for that Trickster ending!!
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So, David. The second half of
So, David. The second half of this interview certainly has the feeling of Huldufolk…….
From Whitley: Get ready for that Trickster ending!!
Surveys suggest that more than half of Icelanders believe in, or at least entertain the possibility of the existence of, the Huldufolk – the hidden people. Just to be clear, Icelandic elves are not the small, green, pointy-eared variety that help Santa pack the toys at Christmas – they’re the same size as you and I, they’re just invisible to most of us.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27907358
http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/huldufolk-supernatural-creatures-hiding-iceland-005870
The premise of this debate is
The premise of this debate is flawed. That premise being that knowing where they’re from will explain what they are. Why should it and how could it? It seems to me that the debate simply masks differing agendas, that each theory has assumptions associated with it which support particular world views. From the ETH we get advanced technology, free energy, a continuation of the meme of conquering natural laws to our own ends. The rejection of the ETH is more accurately a rejection of this world-view, and while less conclusive is more introspective. It questions prevailing values rather than validates them with a prosperous vision of their future. Which one leads us in the direction we want to go?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_vy-eWGKSk
It wasn’t a debate, it was a
It wasn’t a debate, it was a discussion. But I’d say that my rejection of the ETH of the type that you outlined is not a rejection of that worldview but simply that the facts, such as they are, and the totality of the experiences described, don’t support that. I’m rejecting either a lie, a wrong, or a myth-building, depending on what one’s perspective (and agenda) is. That doesn’t mean I run to another answer, but I keep looking at the unfolding picture.
Is recognizing the unknown as unknown an agenda?
I think the knowing where their from explaining what they are is a ruse. And it’s precisely this that goes into the ETH. ET per se is still a possibility. But that ETs are just us in different bodies with advanced intellect seems like a wish. Since it isn’t supported by the accounts and yet that’s the popular thinking, I’d say it IS a wish–because that we can understand, work with, and aspire to be hyper-rational, super smart doctors and engineers.
Hi Jeremy,
I was referring to
Hi Jeremy,
I was referring to the wider debate in general and not to this discussion in particular. I realize you didn’t want this to be just another argument so I apologize if I framed it so.
I did try to get at what’s behind the ETH in general and there I think we agree. Not everyone that holds a theory that this is other than a myth or an illusion has direct experience to base their theories on, and the ETH is not illogical if it’s based only on the evidence available to non-experiencers but problems arise if people become satisfied with the ETH and don’t continue to question and match evidence to phenomena, and there’s a world-view associated with the ETH that may be destructive and that people who hold it may not be aware of. I believe, for example, that Richard Dolan is sincere but because he believes strongly in the ETH he’s postulated a Breakaway Civilization, crashed saucers, and believes Ingo Swann (fraud) remote viewed alien bases on the dark side of the moon. These are all logical outgrowths of a sincere belief in the ETH, but not everyone is sincere, and if the belief in the ETH takes root in a mind that is more psychopathic than sincere you end up with a Jacobs or Hopkins perpetuating destructive myths and damaging peoples minds for the sake of an agenda, a paycheck or both.
I know we are told that is
I know we are told that is best to keep these things in question but my mind can’t help trying to make sense of the myriad unexplained or strange experiences that people report….and I find my self sitting, looking across the room, to a mirror on the wall above my eye-line. A thought comes to mind involving a torch…
Let us imagine that we are in a dark room but unbeknownst to us, there are pieces of coloured mirror of different sizes, shapes and contours, all with varying degrees of distortion, hanging and twisting from the ceiling all around us. In our hand is a torch that we switch on…and as we move around, the torch light bounces off these mirrors, back and forth in an ever-changing rainbow coloured dance. So, let’s say that each mirror colour represents a different aspects of our experience of the universe / reality…the physical, distance, time, life, death, the mind, the symbolism of the subconscious, dreamscapes, the astral, thought, feelings, myth, religious belief, divination and on and on…..and as we shine the torch around (which represents our consciousness), inevitably, eventually, we will get a flash of coloured light reflected back in our direction…and it could be of any colour…we might even momentarily see the unmistakable but distorted shape of something familiar but strange enough to cause a significant ripple of fear…but it is not resolved clearly enough, or for long enough for us to recognise the source as being our very own torch light illuminating our face from an unfamiliar direction and in an unexpected colour and proportion…but the one thing we do recognise is the light…yes, it was unmistakably light that was seen…it was unmistakably conscious.
So I guess the bottom line, which I am sure is nothing new really but it helps me to connect the dots, is that the weird, on whichever level of experience it emerges, may just be a distorted reflection of our own consciousness…or someone else’s, (if there are more people in that room shining torches around).
“….[T]he ETH is not
“….[T]he ETH is not illogical if it’s based only on the evidence available….”
Yes, and so when do we as a “community”, or whatever ufology is, have a serious discussion about what constitutes good evidence these days?
It seems to me we’re stuck with competing fictions: the established cookie cutter fictions created by only deeming valid a portion of testimony; new fiction like Richard Dolan’s breakaway society that, as far as I can tell, is based upon his own actual work of fiction with Bryce Zabel; hypnotically-retrieved alien stories indiscriminately promoted as authentic experience; former military/government people who we’re not supposed to trust at all… until they claim to be whistleblowers–then we’re all in, even though their claims never pan out; and physical evidence that doesn’t give proof to anything specific, even when it does indicate that something out of the ordinary happened, but for which we hear all sorts of truth claims. And this is before we even get to hoaxers.
So, there’s a problem here for sure. And if you ever try to rock the boat, you’re blacklisted, because these are the backbones of belief, industry, and what all of this is about more often than not for ufologists, unfortunately, friendships.
Hi Sherbet,
I like the
Hi Sherbet,
I like the metaphor, somehow it reminds me of this song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhDXYfe5wSo
But Jeremy, it’s not
But Jeremy, it’s not surprising, or shouldn’t be. False consensus belief has always been a motivating force for humanity-in-mass throughout history. One only need look at the Inquistion, European Colonialism, and Hitler’s Germany for examples. Humanity has always had individuals that questioned the consensus and suffered the consequences, yet it is these individuals who have led humanity though this can only be seen in the retrospective. So to repeat a phrase, why should or how could ufology be any different? The proper questions are there for anyone to ask if they care to. Breaking the false paradigms of the present has never been easy or popular, just necessary.
To get at the truth in this world has always been the exception because it requires effort and introspection, a willingness to step out of a comfort zone. Going along with the consensus is easy, not asking questions is easy, or stopping short when they become uncomfortable, is easy. The consensus is flattering, it’s rewarding, it gives the illusion of stability and certainty. The quest for Truth comes from within and not from without, and whether by nature or necessity, it seems it’s an individual quest.
Quite the
Quite the discussion!
Interestingly, I had a UFO sighting in just the last few days, on October 25th. This was my 3rd UFO sighting and I am still sitting on the fence on it all, but then I have other strange stuff going on pretty frequently too. All 3 experiences with UFOs included the feeling of ‘whatever it was’ having an awareness of me. I have also have been studying all of this since I was about 12 years old. (Trust me on this one…a very long time). 🙂
Since I feel an awareness of me from whoever/whatever, I want it/them to get nothing but the best from me, meaning I really try sending kind thoughts going their way. It’s the right thing to do, even if none of it is ‘real’, or they turn out to be ‘bad guys’ (I’ve never felt that, however). After my experience on Wednesday, I told it/them, “Thanks for the show!”
Listening to this reminded me of a blog that I wrote for my own site about UFOs 11 years ago, and my blog was also carried on a Canadian website back then too. In my blog, I included a list of possibilities. They were:
• Man-made, super-secret, military aircraft
• Spaceships from other worlds in our known Universe
• Crafts piloted by inter-dimensional beings, possibly from parallel realities and universes
• Time travelers from our own past/future
• Spiritual entities
• Some previously unknown life-form living in our atmosphere
• Actual portals or “stargates” (rather than craft) between worlds or dimensions
In reading through my old blog again, I came across a quote that I used from Carl Sagan that still holds true and sums it all up nicely:
“Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known.”
I have my own quote to contribute: Are we there yet? (Repeat as often as necessary)
Having not had a UFO
Having not had a UFO experience I struggle with what purpose the experience might serve. Is it meant for only the individual or for the collective? At the same time from reports from those who have had it it doesn’t necessarily become any clearer, but logically direct experience must contain more information than that derived from just hearing reports.
Whether or not it’s only meant for individual experiencers, it has entered the collective consciousness if only as a matter of belief or disbelief. The psychological make up of those hearing the accounts as well as the sum total of their own life experience will determine on which side they fall, and no outside determination of which is right or wrong can be valid enough to override an individuals conclusion, so even if only meant for individual experiencers, the experiences are available to consider for anyone who cares to believe in them, of course with the determination of which to believe and which to disbelieve also falling on the individual, with only individual consequences, ultimately, as a result.
Falling on the side of belief, and with my own ‘strange’ experiences to aid discrimination, I can only make the most basic conclusion at this time, and whether intentional or exclusive, it is at least clear: THIS is not all there is. YOU are not all there is. It may be basic to some, so fundamental as to seem redundant, yet for others otherwise in a position to believe, it may be profound, and is independent of any particular theory.
“I have my own quote to
“I have my own quote to contribute: Are we there yet? (Repeat as often as necessary)”
Hi Cosmic,
Related questions:
“Are you where you want to be?”
“Is this it?”
“Who says?”
“How long?”
“Really?”
“Can we go faster?”
And not-a-question:
“I gotta get outa here!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXe7KNb7RqY
One more from Kansas called, simply, Hopelessly Human. The questions may be human. The answers maybe notsomuch…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy8z557aK1Y