Mark Stavish knows his Masonic history, and in this searching interview, he takes us deep into some of its most hidden recesses. There is a resurgence of Masonry as a spiritual practice and a quest for self-realization, and in this interview Whitley’s own profound esoteric understanding intersects with Mark’s deep knowledge in what turns into a enlightening, and finally riveting, exploration of lost secrets and how they are finally re-emerging into the modern Masonic movement.

What is Masonry? Why, as it is devoted to doing good, is it looked upon with such suspicion by so many? Where did it come from and, more importantly, where is it going right now? Is there a place in it for the spiritual searcher, or is it primarily a social and charitable organization?

All of these questions and more are covered here. Some of the deeper ones: What is the significance of the three gifts of the Magi, and who was Hermes Trismigistus? What is the connection between Masonry and the Knights Templar, and what was the real secret that they brought out of the Islamic world to Christendom?

Get set for a wonderful adventure of soul and mind.

To read Mark Stavish’s blog Voxhermes, click here. To order his book through us, click here.

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  1. I am so stunned right now. The past few weeks i’ve had my focus on Masonry, and more specifically the Knights Templar. To keep this comment short, i’ll save the boring details.. these past few weeks i’ve been curious as to my family ties to the Knights Templar, as usual, i spent my night doing research/ and searching through my lineage. At 7:27 a.m. almost exactly an hour ago, following a direct line I found who happens to be William Marshal a well know Knights Templar. I have been searching “Knights Templar” in the search bar of unknown country for weeks now!!! I just barely finished a podcast from either 2007, or 2008, and when I finished I refreshed my search, and to my surprise this one was at the top. Whitley you could not have released this at any absolute, perfectly better time. Thank you from the depths of my soul!!!🤍

    1. CAMIE, this is waaay cool, especially when it comes in such a surprise.

  2. I am taking the first degree Entered Apprentice initiation this next Tuesday, in good part thanks to Mark’s book. While I don’t agree with some of his politics, Mark Stavish is a very knowledgeable expert on esoteric themes. I just finished reading this book, along with Robinson’s “Born in Blood” which makes a solid case for Freemasonry’s origins with the Knights Templar. I listen to “Dreamland” every week, so this is a big synchronicity for me. Mark would be a good regular guest on Dreamland, he is learned in so many fields of interest to listeners.

    1. “While I don’t agree with some of his politics” – and what are they exactly?

      1. I wouldn’t put a label on Mark’s politics. I just said I don’t agree with some of it – some I do agree with. You can read his opinions, which he is entitled to, of course, on his Facebook page, along with many very interesting and intelligent articles on esoteric topics. It should be noted that it is forbidden to discuss politics or religion in a Masonic Lodge. A good rule.

    2. Author

      I don’t actually inquire about the politics of my guests. I do try to avoid guests who insist in interjecting their politics into the interviews, which is why I’ve dropped a few along the way. My life involves politics only to the extent of watching out for political activity that might become dangerous to me. To me, politics is a useless endeavor which will never come into balance. As G.I. Gurdjieff used to characterize such activities, it’s “pouring from the empty into the void.”

      1. I wholeheartedly agree – that’s why I’m always curious why people feel the need to caveat their comments when guests/speakers are of a particular political persuasion. Anyone can be a source of wisdom regardless of their stance on whatever the “issue du jour” happens to be.

      2. I very much appreciate that you avoid politics and guests that try to push their political agendas unlike some other well-known radio hosts. I believe that will continue to be paramount as we get closer to the 2022 and 2024 elections. So, thank you! Also, I am drawn to this interview for two main reasons: 1) I found a billfold many years ago with the Masonic symbol embossed on it long before I knew what it meant, and 2) Recently I have become interested in why the Magi gave the 3 gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh to Jesus as a baby. It has intrigued me to the point that I actually bought Frankincense essential oil to give as a gift this past Christmas. I look forward to learning more from Mark Stavish as I continue to listen to your interview.

      3. That’s pretty funny how totally wrong Gurdjieff was on this count.

        Politics IS balance. It is embedded into the Universe and the behavior of conscious beings in this fantastically diverse Universe, AS balance.

        It’s everywhere in Nature – dolphins, house cats, tigers, and ant colonies sorting out their politics; human culture over eons, and all over the place both in incarnated and discarnate life in … well in all of Creation that I’ve ever seen.

        Politics is Yin pouring into Yang, and Yang pouring into Yin.

        “Yin is the receptive and Yang the active principle, seen in all forms of change and difference such as the annual cycle (winter and summer), the landscape (north-facing shade and south-facing brightness), sexual coupling (female and male), the formation of both men and women as characters and sociopolitical history (disorder and order).”

        Also, the 2nd & 4th Hermetic Principles ~

        The principle of correspondence:

        “As above, so below; as below, so above.”

        The principle of polarity:

        “Everything is dual; everything has poles; everything has its pair of opposites; like and unlike are the same; opposites are identical in nature, but different in degree; extremes meet; all truths are but half-truths; all paradoxes may be reconciled.”
        The existence of politics – everywhere in the Universe – has no bearing whatsoever on the possibility of having inner peace. In fact, from my experience, those beings who trust most deeply in their inner, infinite peace are also the most willing to fight political battles of almost unimaginable ferocity.

        Funny how that works. Seeing just how clearly it does work this way tells me I have nothing to fear or avoid about the political nature of the Cosmos. In fact I’ve learned the most important lessons of all from being so deeply involved in such things.

        As usual, fear itself is the issue. Fear of challenging experience. Fear of pain, loss, failure.

        As usual, fear is an illusion. TOTALLY. That makes the scope of what Creation can discover – through the process of politics – Yin and Yang – truly infinite.

        1. Author

          Politics is defined as the art and science of government. It is a human endeavor. It is connected to nature only in so far as it involves conflict.

          1. It is very well-known that success in nature – passing on your genes to the next generation – is as much, and possibly much more, about cooperation than it is about competition/conflict.

            Google: cooperation vs competition in nature

            And this is from the Wikipedia page “Politics” –

            “The concept has been defined in various ways, and different approaches have fundamentally differing views on whether it should be used extensively or limitedly, empirically or normatively, and on whether conflict or co-operation is more essential to it.”

            The concept that there is some really ‘firm’ idea or boundary dividing humans from nature has very much fallen by the wayside. Countless examples could be given, regarding intelligence, language, culture, consciousness, self-awareness and so on.

            Do you believe dolphins or whales don’t have their own versions of the ‘art and science of government’? We have no idea what they are saying, though their language is so complex our only hope is to use AI to even attempt to accurately understand it.

            They have to deal with group decisions, resource allocation, leadership decisions – and other things that are exactly what humans use politics for. Resolving conflicts. Making cooperative agreements. Almost certainly an ‘art and science’ that is deeply complex.

            If humans ever understood such things as ‘whale language and culture’, I’d place a bet on us learning some things that could be vital to our own long-term survival, in terms of improving how we do politics.

  3. Nice to hear people are joining for spiritual reasons instead of it being about fish fries and chicken dinners, LOL. I know their numbers are down in my area and I think they were actually taking applications instead of relying on personal invites. I will confess that my favorite part of any parade was the shriners on mini bikes. I have fond memories of them.

    1. Man, you said it. After countless Mardi Gras parades, what do I remember most? Shriners on mini bikes and, wait for it, little dune buggies.

  4. a wonderful way to pass time away from their wives.. plus high sounding titles too !
    one would wish spiritual aspirants to aim slightly higher than that.
    perhaps it was somehow different in the 18th cent, who knows.. let the dead bury their dead.
    Numbers are dropping ? Good.

  5. Lots of information in this interview. THANK YOU.

    IN MY ADULT YEARS, I HAVE ALWAYS FELT PARTICULARLY BONDED TO MASTER HERMES…….According to Cayce, many other personalities from the Old Testament and history were also incarnations of Jesus. The Cayce material describes the entire Christian Bible as part of the story of Jesus’ long struggle to attain “Christhood” and provide humanity a pattern to do the same.

    “Hermes” of the Cayce readings is the one who designed and built the Great Pyramid under the direction of Ra Ta. There is another historical connection between a “Hermes” and Egypt which is found in the Hellenistic writings attributed to Hermes Trismegistus – the sage who began the Hermetic tradition. Hermes is also referred to in the Poimandres, as the “shepherd of men” who teaches that “the Word which came forth from the Light is the Son of God.” Accordingly, Hermes also taught that human nature consists of such divine elements as Nature, Light, Mind, and Life; and that by recognizing them we may return to the invisible, immaterial world of Truth.

    I read this article at and am wondering about it? Could it be true? Are all of the facts correct? 

    “I have tried to keep the true essence of his story intact. This was my debt to Dienach, whose chronicles of the future completely changed my perspective of life. Nothing more, nothing less. My only goal was to make it accessible to all of you, because if Dienach’s experience was indeed real, this book contains revolutionary information – something the (((Masons))) clearly recognized – and has the potential to radically change your view of the world and mankind.”

    Chronicles from the Future: The Amazing Story of Paul Amadeus Dienach | Ancient Origins (

  6. Doug, have you ever read Mein Kampf. I studied it in Modern European History in college. There is much about “social darwinism,” the concept that emerged out of the eugenics movement, which equates human politics with animal conflict. It is still to this day a right-wing meme.

    1. I think I owned a copy briefly while in college. I don’t think I read more than some sections here or there. But yes, I’m familiar with the social Darwinism concepts, the eugenics movement, and some of those current memes.

      btw, I totally appreciate the choice Whitley makes to keep politics out of Dreamland. I think it’s a wise choice, for multiple reasons.

      At the same time… 😉 well, I think we have to honestly address the multiple levels of radically deep irony here. Climate change, our use of nuclear energy, and our deployment of nuclear weapons are three of the most intensely political issues on Earth. How exactly could it be that the visitors think we could – and very much should – address these issues, without going deep into the jungles of politics?

      Not only that, there is a strong argument to be made that the widescale deployment (as modern and safe as possible) of nuclear energy could directly address the climate change issue. But talk about politics. Woah boy.

      But let’s level up on the irony meter. So our human discussions of political issues – even seemingly simple political differences these days – can feel difficult, troubling… even traumatic. Well, here’s some news: direct interaction with the visitors can be about 1000 times more difficult and traumatic than any human political discussion I’ve ever come across.

      How do we propose to resolve the idea that ‘political discussions’ are too disruptive and divisive to deal with here, and yet think – “yeah ok, I’m going to get involved with the visitors, and that’s going to work out just fine and easy.” ??

      Sorry, being a tad sarcastic there, but with good reason. I have many personal advantages that I can take into my interactions with ‘the visitors’ – and yet I can still find them so difficult to interact with that it is almost impossible – on a purely human mental and emotional level. Talk about challenging discussions! Human politics doesn’t even come close.


      Joan of Arc, Steve Biko, Cesar Chavez… Child labor laws, the women’s suffrage movement, environmental protections, and on and on. None of these people or processes what I would consider “useless”.

      “Love is the greatest force in the universe. It is the heartbeat of the moral cosmos. He who loves is a participant in the being of God.” ~ Martin Luther King Jr.

      1. Oh yeah, the final level of irony. One visitor who was very dear to me spoke something to me – telepathically – when I was in the heart of some of the most intense ‘internal’ feeling-discussions I’ve ever had with them, and I was basically crying out for clarity ~

        “Look for harmony.”

      2. I have come to the conversation late.
        Politics ,rightly so has become a bane in today’s world.
        I wish to put a word in for democracy. That is something free masons had a very large hand in, in this country.
        An animal sociologist did a study of gazelles on the African Savannah years ago.
        They were all drinking water at their watering hole. Slowly one perceived a lion stalking the herd. The another raised its head in the direction of the lion.
        Then another. Then another.
        When fifty percent of the herd raised them heads in the direction of the lion they all ran in the opposite direction. Democracy at work. Democracy in the animal world.

        1. I’d second that vote for democracy. And it’s interesting about the gazelles. I was thinking about the same things yesterday ~

          Google – animal voting systems

          And you get some very interesting articles.

  7. Yawn. It’s hard to believe that there are still people who believe that a valid path to pursuing answers to the question of Who am I, and Why are we here, can defend the exclusion of 51% of the population. Whitley asks about this… “Where do you go with it?”… And the answer is, “There’s no where you can go.” Really?! The offering is “Co-Masonry”? Sounds like “Separate but equal”, to me. No surprise that in the 21st century, their numbers are dropping. Slowly, slowly, the Old Guard fades away.

    1. Thanks Darlene!

      Here is most of my comment from Whitley’s interview with LMH:

      There is a war going on, a spiritual war in the Universe. All of the Kingdoms are involved and are interconnected. Focusing on ETs is too limiting when we are running out of time.

      Last week on the day after the anniversary of the Wounded Knee Massacre, Peter Champoux and Chief Henry Red Cloud were interviewed on Kili Radio on Pine Ridge about the Masonic control at the Wounded Knee Massacre and till today at the site of the massacre to hold back Native Americans and humanity. Two minutes before their interview, Kili Radio lost the ability to broadcast out and record. As Peter Champoux noted, we are engaged in spiritual warfare. The second half hour was broadcast out and Mike Clelland was able to record it from Seattle. At the end of the interview, Henry Red Cloud called for the Lakota tribe to pull down the arch at Wounded Knee to release those souls trapped there and release ultimately humanity. This release will impact every person on our planet and allow the development of spirituality and spiritual gifts for all people.

      We are working to return the remains and possessions of the people at Wounded Knee. Almost 20 years ago, the hair of Chief Big Foot was returned to the Oglala Tribe and released through ceremony. His remains are most likely in the Smithsonian in Washington, DC. This month I am going to a historical society in Massachusetts where the Wounded Knee remains are currently located. I have been authorized by the tribe to represent them. Once these items and others are released in ceremony, the frequency will rise. The unseen and the spirits who have passed on are working overtime to help us. Let this be the year when all of us become activists. We are doomed if knowledgeable people do not stand up.

      The satanic influence on our world is pervasive in every area of our life. Which alien race is responsible for that?

      Clean out your own temples/souls. Resolve outstanding issues and tell the truth. That will align your body, mind and spirit.

      And don’t be naive. There are so many things going on behind the scenes we need to become knowledgeable about. A respected Lakota Elder shared recently that people are digging up graves and hoarding the remains of Native Americans to use in rituals. The FBI caught one man with thousands of remains in his home. Skull and Bones stole Geronimo’s skull to use in rituals. 2022 is the year of the big reveal. So much will be exposed to all of us this year. It will not be pretty.

      New Observations Magazine is publishing an entire issue on Wounded Knee. We hope to get it out to the public in April.

    2. I remember that interview, original broadcast..That factoid blew me away, though not shocking. After all, at that time the lodges were segregated, and l will speculate that the Masons at Wounded Knee were white men.

  8. Thank you for a great interview with Mark Stavish.
    There’s so much silly garbage about Masonry on the internet that’s taken as truth just because it justifies the need for a scapegoat or excites someones conspiratorial curiosities.

    I wish you had known to ask him “Is there anything such as ‘The Freemasons’ or ‘The Masons’. He is in a good position to give Understanding.

    There is NO such thing as ‘The Masons’. It just doesn’t exist as a singular organization like ‘The U.S. Army’.
    A man or woman becomes a Freemason by receiving the three degrees. He or she does this within the setting of a lodge that functions autonomously. That’s it. It is up to Her or Him to do with the experience as they please.

    It simply isn’t possible for there to be a grand conspiracy pulled of by ‘The Masons’. If you want a reliable spoiler for what happens in the degrees, go to your local book store and find ‘Duncan’s Ritual and Monitor of Freemasonry’. It’s a nearly verbatim transcription. Read what Masons themselves write about the Craft. They aren’t lying.

    Or, maybe ignore what Duncan’s says and decide to believe dubious online websites written by an ‘ex-mason’, or some other expert that “comes from a long line of 33s” although not masons themselves, that masons worship Lucifer and perform black magic holding humanity hostage. Anyone know who Leo Taxil is and his story concerning Masonry?

    Didn’t Anne say we need good questions?

    Thank you again Whitley. I appreciate you having an actual authority on the subject of Masonry on Dreamland.

  9. Every cloud has a silver lining… according to a BBC article, The United Grand Lodge of England, as of 2018 are now officially allowing females in the brotherhood…Erm…providing they were male when they joined!

    Anyway, regardless of specific lodge joining requirements, one of my Grandfathers was in his local lodge, a carpenter by trade and an Uncle, a teacher, on my father’s side, was in one too for years. I remember going to an evening a long while ago, when he was the current “Most Worshipful Master”, or whatever it was. It never had any real appeal to me. And up until that point, apart from the secrecy and vague notions of initiation rites, my overall impression was of a group that did charitable works, but that liked to promote jobs for the boys. As far as I am aware, that is a big thing within the mid to higher escelons of the police force, in the UK, although that may have changed now. I’ve experienced the ‘thumb over the top’ handshake a few times and been asked if I had considered joining but never had any pressure to do so. My Dad is the same… asked but wasn’t interested. My other Uncle was in his lodge too and had a fascination for owls…which is not surprising, I guess.

    Symbolism has always fascinated me, as a connection between the inner and outer worlds… but following my own unstructured threads. It seems it is the language of the subconscious, of dreams… and perhaps the Visitors too – which brings me back to the owls, that have been hooting around here of late.

  10. Author

    The difficulty as far as women are concerned is that there are rites which involve nudity, apparently. When I was growing up in Texas, Masons and Catholics did not drink from the same cup, so joining was never an issue.

    1. Concerning nudity, that isn’t quite correct.

      In the Entered Apprentice, the left breast is bare.
      In the Fellow Craft, the right breast is bare.
      In the Master Mason degree, both breasts are bare.

      Symbolically, it reflects the opening of and focusing on the heart.

      Everything from the waist down is covered through ALL degrees, including Scottish Rite, York Rite, and Memphis Misraim, the list goes on.
      Actual full nudity is not a part of any Masonic Rite at all, at all.

      In Co-masonry where both sexes are welcome, the awkwardness of women exposing their breasts in mixed company is overcome by simply allowing women to wear a white, very clean t-shirt or something of the sort with bra on. Covering the breast in this manner takes away nothing from the ceremony or what is gained through the process of initiation.

      I don’t know what all women lodges do. I’m not allowed in them. It’s their business anyway.

      I’m sure any of these lodges or Grand Lodges would answer any questions if contacted. The issue of what to do about the exposed breasts in the degrees isn’t exactly a new question. ;0)

  11. My main issue is the secrecy and exclusivity, whatever the organization, belief system, religion, etc. I do understand the need not to tell everything, and creating motivation for anyone to seek, learn, and explore.

    I also grew up in Texas where, Masons and Catholics, hispanics, blacks, the poor, and other groups did not drink from the same cup, so joining was never an issue—yet it was, and still is. Secrecy and exclusivity in women’s lodges is no better.

    The secrecy around things such as ‘UFO’s’ is a huge flashpoint these days, but humans have tolerated secrecy and embraced exclusivity in other ways for centuries. Except for a very few women, (Linda Moulton-Howe and Leslie Kean come to mind), the whole UFO thing is male-dominated too, and Lue Elizondo seems to get more street cred because he was involved in the military secrets—and seems to be fond of wearing gimme caps (just one regular guy).

    I am not a Christian, but I do see the Bible as one of many sacred texts. Interestingly, the number ‘7’ has significance as well:

    Matthew 7:7
    “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:”

    1. “I do understand the need not to tell everything, and creating motivation for anyone to seek, learn, and explore.”

      I was just rewatching Whitley’s absolutely wonderful special video that he made, and posted on the Dreamland June 11 thread with Jacques Vallée and Paola Harris – “What are the Mantis Beings…”

      That video is jam-packed with such effortless wisdom, experience and beauty. All inspired by Whitley having the motivation to ask a good question, and being open to experiencing an answer.

    2. Yeah, I agree with you on the exclusivity thing to a point. The words ‘exclusive’ and ‘elite’ go too quickly to peoples heads.
      Masonry has to guard itself against many things. None of them in my opinion are against women. Not all masons agree with me. Education among masons reflects the level of education in the cultures they reside within.
      There is nothing specifically ‘male’ in any of the degrees that should exclude anyone, except the most basic entry requirements of proper age, a belief in deity, and a record without a felony. But that’s my humble opinion. Masonry, like most of the western culture and its creations, suffers under the oppressive thumb of the western cannon and patriarchal attitudes. Drives me nuts!

      Most all of what we do has been published since 1730s. There really is nothing that hasn’t been exposed already.

      So why continue with secrecy and private windowless rooms? What purpose does secrecy serve?
      It serves two important purposes. One is to keep the prying eyes of dogmatic institutions like the Catholic Church out of our business and us off the torture racks. Masonry is old enough to know the vitriol of the church. I know of at least one brother who was excommunicated from his Catholic Church because he is a member. I know others who have had to explain themselves to Bishops of various diocese. The popes seems to still struggle with us. The last Papal Bull wasn’t that long ago. I come from a Southern Baptist background, and grew up with lessons of Masonic conspiracies galore.

      Second, and more importantly. When someone is on a mystical path that falls outside of what is typically understood in the common world, speaking about what is experienced in the lodge has the direct result of deflating the experience. Same thing that happens to abductees who speak out excited to inform the world of their new found understanding and experiences. They become pariahs.

      So, if someone accuses us of being Secret, that really isn’t true. It’s all out there for those with the patience to read through it all.

      At this point, without the threat of direct prosecution from church or state, we are really just a collection of unrelated private organizations, whether female, male, or both, with roots in the Masonry Guilds that rebuilt London after it burned in the 1600’s that carried much of the framework for the Hermetic Western Mystery Tradition. As the elite and royalty thought is was important to become members for whatever reasons, much of what constitutes the esoteric teachings were pushed aside in favor of a rather bland liberal fraternalism that focuses on simple moral lessons and charitable works. It’s a shame and near apostasy that this happened, but the understanding of the enlightenment leaned towards scientific materialism as dogma, and so it goes today.
      The framework of the Western Path is still within it though if one knows how to see it. Like the parables spoken by Jesus, there are many layers to understanding it, from simple moral to complete union with Godhead.

      The trouble comes when people believe conspiracies before they find out the often less enticing truth for themselves.

      As to why aren’t more women involved? I wish I understood. I know one woman who is a Master Mason. If my lodge knew I interacted with her, I could be kicked out. That is the result of living on the bible belt. If I was in a lodge in California, it would be ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’.

      I find women excluded along many other disciplines too. Think about the fact that we know next to nothing of Nannerl Mozart, even though she possessed the same freakish talent for composition.
      How many female alchemists can you count? I think you only need one hand.
      One of the greatest saints the Catholic church produced was Hildegaard von Bingen. How many know who she is, let alone where are the other women who followed in her footsteps? It’s easy to go on, but I know people here get the idea.

      It’s very strange to me that women don’t have a stronger presence on the path of return. My guess is,
      we have been so badly poisoned in the West over the past 2 millennium that we no longer recognize our own heritage of paths to illumination. It surely isn’t recognized within any public church I’ve interacted with either. They need to understand specifically how Whitley described Jesus in his book. Whitley is dead on understanding who Jesus was and what he did.
      And you don’t need to become a Christian or Mason to gain this understanding. Just be an honestly questing (questioning) human.

      1. Indeed, how many women are rarely mentioned in history? I have owned music by Hildegard Von Bingen for many years—her sacred music, sung by the beautiful voices such as the group ‘Sequentia’, is probably as close to the sounds of angels as you’ll find. She was a genius. The Church even considered her a genius, and during the Dark Ages, that was astounding. If she hadn’t been a nun and Abbess, she might have been persecuted as a witch.

        How about women who preceded Von Bingen? How many know about Hypatia? She was another genius of her day in Alexandria. She was literally torn to pieces by Christian zealots.

        Buddhists have long considered an incarnation as a woman as undesirable, but not because women are inferior. They know that the life of women is much harder and more difficult than even the worst life of many men.

        And you’re right—you do not need Masonry to chart a path of illumination.

        1. Need? No. But there are those who are drawn to Masonry who will understand it and be able to benefit greatly from it, and we will be here. In spite of silly and paranoid Infowar type logic accusing us of whatever slander it can dream up, we will still be here living out Matthew 7:7 in truth. (p.s. there’s no such thing as ‘master numbers’ in masonry, that’s pure fiction)

  12. I’m surprised I haven’t run into Mark sooner, thank you for introducing him to us. I am also a Pennsylvania Freemason, Past Master in the Blue Lodge and on the York Rite side I am a Past Thrice Illustrious Master, Past Most Excellent High Priest, Past Emminent Commander and currently serving as Emminent Commander again for my Commandery of Knights Templar. I belong to a few invitation-only bodies as well. PA Freemasonry is a splendid and rewarding experience to join, no other State or Country does Freemasonry like PA does, we are truly unique!

    Mark had some amazing insights and I’ll definitely need to listen a few more times, thanks again Whitley!

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