As far as those of us without insider access are concerned, the question of whether or not the greys even exist remains an open one, and will remain open until we have access to physical proof. In this intense and provocative interview Danielle Sliverman and Dr. John Biggerstaff explore what their longtime colleague Nigel Kerner thought these entities are and why the might be here. Using information from his book Grey Aliens and Artificial Intelligence, they make a case that they are indeed real, and that they are synthetic beings who are engaged in a quest for souls–ours.

Both Danielle Silverman and Dr. Biggerstaff were close to Nigel Kerner, who died in 2022, and know his work intimately. In this interview they discuss not only his theories about why the greys may be interested in our souls, but also what we can do to protect ourselves from this bizarre and extremely dangerous form of assault. 

Was Nigel Kerner right? The argument is a powerful one, which makes this interview essential listening. The image to the right is an illustration of the Planck Length, the distance between two atoms, which Kerner sees as the escape route for souls intent on freeing themselves from bondage to the material world, and the threat of being taken by the greys.

Nigel Kerner’s website is still active, and you can reach it here. To get a copy of Grey Aliens and Artificial Intelligence, click here.

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  1. The way this is being conveyed, gives me the sense of regurgitated doctrine, or supposition masquerading as fact, rather than open questioning.

    The same sense I might get if I wondered into an inviting looking building, but upon listening to the conversation around me, realising I might have walked into the headquarters of some kind of cult… causing me to simultaneously try and quiet mental alarm bells, and naunchalantly scan for the exits.

    The subject matter does interest me intensely but not the way it is being discussed here, by these two.

    Having only managed to listen to half of it, I may try again tomorrow.

    1. I believe John Leer told Art Bell the Grey’s set up a machine on the moon to capture our souls when we passed on.

  2. I have come to believe as you have, that Jesus was an enlightened being who came to show us how to ensure that our souls ascend from love. I don’t believe he intended to be worshipped. Religion holds nothing for me, and I hope I am living and giving enough to not ‘catch’ the edge of the atoms when it’s my turn. This was probably the most profound of your podcasts that I’ve heard since becoming a member and am now ready to read your ‘Jesus’ book which I bought and put on the shelf waiting for the ‘right’ time to read it. Thank you for your generosity towards your ‘free’ listeners when it’s a most important message. I want to go into that blue sky you described and will do my best to get there. Thank you Whitley.

  3. I second the comment by Sherbet UFO. Maybe this material is better explained in the 3 books, but I can’t say that the 2 guests made me feel like reading these books.
    Speaking of robotic greys: I am now reading the book by colonel Corso. According to him, the army speculated that the bodies retrieved at Roswell might be biological robots (so +1 for Nigel). According to many abductees’ reports, there are two kind of greys: the short greys and the tall greys (and the tall ones seem to be in charge). Could it be that the short ones are robots manufactured by their taller bosses?

  4. Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water…I drift in and out of dreamland, but then by chance I listen to this show, and my mind is spinning again. Great show thank you!

  5. One of your great shows Whitley – thank you. You are the lifeline for the week! Fabulous work!

  6. One of the most extraordinary conversations that I’ve ever listened to. If it wasn’t for Dreamland and Unknowncountry, I doubt that I would ever have come across the idea that the soul is not something ‘paranormal,’ existing in some alternate and untouchable reality, but rather a so-far hidden part of our natural world, and something that can be effected positively or negatively in one way or another. I think that the Master of the Key said: ‘find science, find God.’ I’ve been finding that statement to be more and more true.

    1. I couldn’t find that phrase in ‘The Key’ but did manage to find “Communion with God is a science…”, from the following section…

      “Q: Why do our religions have victims?
      A: Because they demand belief, and belief is always a lie, for the essence of reality is not fact but question. There are no facts, only truths. So love of God has nothing to do with belief. Belief rejects God. Communion with God is a science, the science of self-discovery and self-knowledge. Among you, though, this is a lost science, the science of faith.”

      1. Indeed Sherbet UFO… Belief impedes release we know that from the Key. And we have lost the science of soul ascension…according to the MOTK.

        But what is the science of the SOUL? Is it to meditate and spin our atoms tighter and tighter so that we stay together after death and move away from the light and into an enlightened being?

        What culture had this? A lost one? The Sumerians? the Egyptians?


  7. Wow. Not your usual fare and something I have been waiting for. It seems to me that we are all talking more and more about light and combining that with current, scientific theories. Although I probably wasn’t ready for this last year, I am this year…

    Thanks guys

  8. I thought that the two speakers should look at Von Neumann’s work. Kerner argues that greys are intelligent automata which will eventually break down because of entropy (as I understand it) and are consequently trying to capture our souls which are immortal. Von Neumann saw self replicating machines not as static machines but as ones which would evolve in complexity under natural selection over time. Moreover, just as we have dna, so Von Neumann’s machines would have operating instructions which would be passed from one generation to another. The consequence of this evolution might well be that some machines would develop in a way which would ensure the survival of their type over many generations. Why then would they need to capture our souls?

    1. I wonder whether the capturing of souls might just be part of an experiment. That experiment might be to design a biological body that has the necessary ‘hooks’ to receive a conciousness. They can only be tested for effectiveness by attempting to insert an already bottled (captured) soul. If it works, the template body can be used… But used by whom? Perhaps by beings that already have a soul but are trying to achieve biological immortality. When one manufactured body fails, their consciousness is just transferred into a new body….the old one is recycled. These manufactured bodies effectively then become the transporters of souls.

      The question I would ask in this instance, would be… If the experiment to insert a captured soul failed, what would happen to that soul? If it would be destroyed, then this is way too high a price to pay, surely? But if someone is doing this regardless, then they must be desperate, fanatical even… Not the kind of person you would want to meet out in the woods at night.

      1. Whatever a soul is– and the description given in this episode seems pretty good– it’s very difficult to imagine being able to destroy it, though I can’t prove that that would be impossible.

    2. I wonder, how could you tell if a body was transporting a soul, or was mearly just an intelligent machine? How could you tell if you were looking at the creator / designer, or just one of their minions?

      Regarding other reasons for capturing souls, I’m not sure I want to think about it… I can’t think of anything worse.

      1. That’s a good question. Those of us who are empathically sensitive would likely be able to sense whether “someone was in there” as opposed to just a machine.

        Whitley has on other occasions said that some of the visitors were very much individuals with distinct personalities, even more so than humans. If I remember correctly, he referred to the being whose face is on the cover of Communion as a woman, specifically.

        I understand the concept that some of the Greys (the short ones?) seem to be less individuated or perhaps even like automatons, whereas others (the tall ones?) appear to be intelligently running things. In this podcast, all the Greys are spoken of as being more like robots and part of a hive mind. I’m confused.

    3. With regards to the replication of von Neumann type machines ensuring the continuation of their species…that assumes a perfect copy of the original. In order for there to be natural selection, there needs to be variations of the original to select from. This requires mutation, which does not result in a continuation but a gradual divergence into a multidude of variants…the end result of which can be unrecognisable from the original template. The end result may actually be perfectly designed to function in their environment but could actually be an undesirable variant in other respects… for example, when present in great numbers, they may have a propensity to destroy the environment they are perfectly suited to live within…hence necessitating another mutation in order to survive…and so it goes on.

    4. I was surprised, considering the subject, that they had apparently not heard of Von Neumann machines. The concept has been around for quite a while.

      Sherbet’s point that such machines may tend to destroy an environment simply by being successfully adapted to it, and therefore replicating in great numbers, is well taken. It would take even more intelligence to avoid overpopulation– more intelligence than humans have, that’s for sure.

  9. An incredible interview. I will listen more than once for sure. This incredibly important to understand. Thank you for this offering.

  10. I was playing dolls, in my back yard one day, when I heard a voice say it was time to come with them. I was 7 years old. I ran from my back yard down into the woods. I stood on a large tree that had fallen. I waited and then saw two, golden orbs float around me. They turned into two, small, beings wearing silverish/light blue suits. They had the big black eyes. I then heard the male voice, I turned around. There was a larger being, with a whitish, blur in front of him. I asked why I couldn’t see him . He said because my mind couldn’t handle what he looked like. I asked where he comes from. He said the place your dead goes. I said “you mean heaven?” He said that’s what you call it but it’s not like what you think it is. I asked if he knew my grandmother? She died 3 years before and I was very close to her. He said “I’ve known all of your grandmothers.” I have a lot more memory of that day. I ran back towards my house as my mother was calling me. A black helicopter went over our house and from a different direction, and then, an Army looking helicopter came right over the back yard, so low I could see into his lap and the controls. He buzzed us and as we got to the back door, there were 3 men in black standing there. My mother pushed me behind her and stood with the screen door in front of her. I kept wondering what their eyes looked like under the dark glasses. I didn’t hear what they said to her. I heard her say “We won’t. please leave us alone.” I watched them get into an older, black car that was in the driveway. This happened before the story came out about Betty and Barney Hill. At that time, I thought I was the only one. I saw a paper with a picture about them. The picture of the Alien was a lot different than what I saw. But it shocked and scared me.
    All my mother asked me was if I was ok. I didn’t trust anyone enough to tell. I wasn’t supposed to talk about this.
    I was wide awake during several daytime abductions. This weeks dreamland scares me a bit. I could never forget him saying where they come from.
    I saw my mother on a ship, asleep, in another room a year later. That’s another time. Before she died, she admitted she knew about them. She asked me what ones I had seen. I’ve seen several kinds of ET’s.

    1. Fascinating! In all the years since this happened, where are you currently in your thoughts or beliefs about what the beings might be?

      1. I remember Whitley talking about Ann thinking there was a connection with them and death. It really scared me because that was the first time anyone made that connection, as far as I knew. I always remembered him saying that to me. We come from the other side. The place where your dead go. I said you mean heaven? He said you call it that but it’s not like you think it is. Funny that I wasn’t scared of them when I was little. That being said to me “We’re friends, aren’t we?” I said yes. He said tell me what school is like. I asked him if he ever went to school? He said no.

        1. I would love to hear what Ann thinks of all this. Whitley, has she given any communication that might shed light on this unusual discussion of souls being stolen, or souls failing to ascend as she did?

          (Just by the way, I have heard others mention an ineffable, indescribable blue that they experienced soon after death.)

          1. Agreed!

          2. It would be fascinating to hear more from Lynn!

  11. We continue to approach this subject from the materialist perspective that they are from Elsewhere and are likely machines. It was said early on that we are also heading in the direction as a world society toward artificial intelligence, or trans humanism, as the World Economic Forum website openly admits and endorses (see their video “When Humans Become Cyborgs.” Truly sick stuff. They even have the temerity to call themselves ethicists.) The problem here is that we are missing the vital, vital missing link. What we are calling the Greys are actually US from the future who chose the divergent timeline of sinking deeper into materiality and technology obsession (which happened in Atlantis and has been prophesied as happening again by every civilization since). What we are seeing, in the view of many many esotericists, mystics, psychics, etc., is not a foreign race of beings trying to save themselves. It is HUMANS, because we are in a human solar system where every being we encounter is somehow tied to our earth, which is a consolidation sphere in an ever-evolving solar system of various spiritual impulses. Humans who choose and will choose the organic ascension timeline will not succumb to the lower astral forms created by dedication to technology and trans humanism. But those who, in the future, forsake their inherent spiritual organic natures for the seduction of materiality and technology BECOME what we refer to as the Greys. But they realize that they have fallen out of the natural lifestream and desperately try to cut spiritual corners by stealing our human DNA to rejoin the ascension timeline back to Source. That makes much more sense to me and many others as to what is really happening and why. This narrative that beings from other solar systems and galaxies can zip in and out at will is a space opera fantasy with no grounding in a structured universe. We have to regain a structured understanding of what universe we’re in before we can even hope to grasp the nature of these beings. I urge Whitley to check out Gigi Young on YouTube, as well as everyone else here, and one of her sources, Rudolf Steiner, who founded Anthroposophy. But they are far from the only ones explaining this.

    1. Barry…I’m familiar with Gigi, and I do recommend Steiner’s work. What you’re saying is spot on.

      Back in the early 2000’s, Linda Moulton-Howe investigated Dan Burisch, a microbiologist who allegedly worked at Nellis Air Force Base. His story of a being called J-Rod, a time traveler from the future and a descendant of humanity working on converging time lines in order to correct genetic deformities in our future selves is quite compelling, if true. In addition, the incidents in Rendlesham Forest at RAF Bentwaters in 1980 also appear to have involved time travelers (there is MUCH more to this story.)

      As for the dead, this from Steiner:

      “By cultivating spiritual thoughts here on Earth we can provide nourishment for the dead…. When fields lie fallow, they produce no crops to feed humanity, and people may die of starvation. The dead cannot die of starvation, of course; all they can do is suffer when spiritual life lies fallow on Earth.” ― Rudolf Steiner

      From my own experiences as an often reluctant channeller, I know that Steiner’s quote has a lot of merit…and keep in mind that any time travelers from the future who engage with us are also communicating with beings long dead.

      Yes…it’s more than mind-blowing!

      1. Thank you so much for your reply! Great thoughts and information, and I love hearing that your own experiences validate Steiner. Always good to get other confirmation. I had heard about J-Rod, and I also heard the theory that Rendlesham was a government experiment. But I don’t know what I believe about that incident. Beautiful and sad quote from Steiner. Thank you again for your reply!

        1. Barry, you’re welcome!

          I don’t know what to believe either, but then I’m not into ‘belief’ of anything. Certain things may resonate with me based on experience, knowledge, verified facts and…feelings. Beyond that is mystery.

          1. Very true.

  12. All I can say is one of my clearest memories was holding one of their hands. It was warm and covered with skin. It was a being, warm-blooded, and felt biological to me.
    They may include advanced technology. They may be partly synthetic.
    But I certainly felt like it was not a machine. It was a biological being like you or I.

    1. In keeping with my post above yours, your experience and impression would reinforce the idea that these are humans who went down a divergent path of technology and trans humanism, and having realized that they are now out of the organic ascension path toward Source, they want to rejoin but are trying to do so by cheating, stealing our human material in the misguided hope of becoming wholly organic again. The only way that can really happen is by reincarnating until they evolve themselves back into their own ascension timeline.

      1. Why does Marduk’s experience “reinforce the idea that these are humans who went down a divergent path of technology and trans humanism”? Marduk simply said that the being seemed to be biological.

      2. No idea. They’ve never given me any kind of message. They’ve never said one word to me at all. I was once shown a book with photos, but I didn’t understand the point.

        But… I don’t think the premise of this interview is correct. I didn’t get a good feeling at all about this interview. It’s one of the few dreamlands I struggled to get through, and abandoned.

        They might have some interesting ideas, and I applaud Whitley for exploring this… but I think they’re wildly off-base and speculating here.

        I don’t know what these beings are, or why they are here. If anything, I think Michael Masters and Paul Wargo are closest to being something akin to what’s happening here.

        But again, I’m not sure. They’ve never explained themselves to me.

        1. I thought this was a great Dreamland. I have only had one contact with a Grey. To me it felt utterly alien/machine. There was no feeling of good or evil, just almost a void there. It was either a partly mechanical being (it even let out a sound like a robot cats meow) , a lifeform using technology, or a purely artificial one. No reason why there can’t be a mix of the two.

  13. I really am not sure what they are. I feel some are robots. When I was about 16, I was brought back to my bed, by a being that looked strange to me. He was about 5 1/2 feet tall. He moved strange with longer arms and a long thin neck. I remember thinking how hard it must be for him to hold up his head. He had a big round head and his face was a bit longer with sunken cheeks and pointed chin. I asked him not to leave me here. He stood there looking at me. It was like he was waiting to be told what to say. He then said ….We’ll come back.

  14. One thing you might find interesting. The beings that I was around most of the time were taller white beings. They had long white robes. I didn’t feel they hurt me for quite a few years. I don’t remember being hurt as a child.
    At 4 years old, I did cry about the doctor. I tried to describe him but my sister and mother didn’t listen.

    One time when I was a teenager, I was being brought back to my house. I was coming down in the light. I tried to reach out to grab some leaves off the tall trees near our 2 story house. I tried to push my hand, through the light I was in. I couldn’t reach through it. I took my fist and turned my hand sideways and punched through the light.
    I could feel the warm summer air. I grabbed at a branch on a tree up above , on a hill by the house. I pulled it back in. The next morning, I woke up with all these wilted leave s and a branch in my bed. I remembered what happened. It worked to help me remember.

  15. I have a great many thoughts about this episode, which will take a while to put together, especially since I am still reading a sample of “Grey Aliens and Artificial Intelligence.” But for now:

    The Planck length is NOT “the space between atoms.” It is tremendously smaller than even the protons and neutrons in the nuclei of atoms. Here is a brief discussion of the Planck length and related concepts:

    And remember, in space, atoms themselves can be very, very far apart. If human souls, or anything else, were to slip into the space between atoms, depending on the density of the substance the atoms were making up, they might have a huge amount of room to maneuver.

    “The space between atoms” seems like a bizarre description of the path human spirits take to the next world. It might make a good poetic metaphor, but these guests seem to mean it quite literally.

    1. Yes, I caught that as well. And it wasn’t the only time I thought to myself “that’s not actually true” or “that’s not the way physics works” during this interview.

      Planck units are simply units derived from universal constants, such that the constant is 1 in that unit.

      A Planck length is about 1.6 x 10exp-35 meters and is several orders of magnitude smaller than the distance between atoms. In fact, it’s commonly thought of as the smallest measurable distance possible, due to uncertainty.

      The space between atoms in solid objects is around 10 exp -10 meters, or 25 orders of magnitude larger. The upper distance between atoms is unbounded, because atoms can be any distance apart in space.

      1. Thank you for that clarification!

        One of the many things I appreciate about Dreamland is the fact that when something sounds nutty to me, that gets me to go off and look it up and study. So I learn even from the things that seem to be wrong.

  16. Author

    The authors will be in the Subscriber video room this Saturday at 11 AM. That’s Saturday, January 21, 2023.

  17. Author

    Also, always remember that I am, as a host, neutral about my guests’ ideas and theories. I’m usually enthusiastically interested because I don’t have people on that bore me, obviously.

    1. Thanks for the clarification, Whitley. I’m often a little confused with these podcasts because you may sound like you are very much in agreement with the guests even when they are espousing ideas that are the opposite of what you have said or written in the past.

      So I’m trying to keep it all straight in my mind and remember what you’ve put in your books. Not that you couldn’t change your opinion…. and of course a lot of this is so nebulous anyway and has so many possible interpretations…..

  18. Oh there is so much in this that resonates. I have been a practitioner/teacher of a yogic technology that protects humans from the beings you are referring to. Kind of blown away by how that technology and others are designed to protect us from these threats you and your guests speak of.

    1. Very interesting! Is there a name for that yogic technology or something we can look up about it?

  19. As to the comment that he would come as a Thief in the Night (you don’t notice He was there until He’s gone again). He did also return as a “Thief in the night” in the form of the “Glory of God”, which in Arabic is “Bahá’u’lláh”. Born in 1817CE, He started his ministry in 1863CE which lasted for 40 years. It started in the East, crossed the two rivers mentioned in the Bible and ended on Mt. Carmel in Haifa. See the Book Thief in the Night by William Sears. Also available online in PDF form for free or can be bought in normal book form.

  20. This hits home because people aren’t nice anymore. Nobody wants to talk or even be a nice person when they do. The gov wants us to NOT use our mind nor use human contact/knowledge. They don’t want us to know we are our own self-god and we can truly do whatever we put our minds too, which I am learning. Now they are building robots to “replace” us and it doesn’t make any sense. We are stronger than anyone puts off yet they are making these instead of giving us our real powers. I could be all wrong cause I am just learning but I am learning I was lied to and held back my whole life by guidelines and trying to be “perfect” but that’s not real life. What we think and believe in our souls is real life.

    1. While many people are not nice online, so many are– including the ones right here at Dreamland. And in daily life, I rarely find anyone who is not doing their best to be kind.

      I have no idea, frankly, what you mean by “The gov wants us to NOT use our mind nor use human contact/knowledge.” That may well be true of some parts of “the gov,” including whatever shadowy parts are dealing with the Visitors, but most folks who work in government are just ordinary people doing their best like you and me.

      I think one antidote for the issues you are reporting is simply to get involved with your local and state government in any way you can and to keep in touch with your representatives at the federal level. This may sound Pollyanna-ish, but we DO have real power as you pointed out, and we can use it more than most of us do. It can be difficult to break through to the powers that be but they listen to us more than you might think.

      (Our New Mexico legislative session has started and this is all very much on my mind, as you see. I’m involved with writing and advocating for legislation that affects my profession.)

      One way or another, yes, remember your power!

  21. Mind blowing interview!! Really resonates with me. Thank you Whitley. Will have to listen to this one a few times.

  22. This garden of consciousness is so brim full of opportunities for experience. Should our bodies be shared and should these lives of ours be connected to unseen levels of being then perhaps we worry too much about being ‘used’.

    All flowers in a garden wither and pass on their goodness to the next generation. I’ve come to terms with these endless questions and find myself more than happy to enjoy the companionship of guides around me in this endless voyage into new horizons.


    1. I like your reminder that we are not really individuals the way we usually think we are.

  23. The pieces of kabballism and tree of life mysticism mixed in with Abrahamic human exceptionalism did not further my understanding. Saying souls get stuck at the edges of atoms means little beyond making believers afraid, unless there is some metaphor there, as others suggest.

    Much of this for me came down to suggesting we are superior, at least in heaven. In this life, we are not, and we will improve a lot with respecting biology and technology, and figuring out where we fit in a connected physical, biological and technological existence.

    Technology provides avenues to evolve and grow physically and spiritually. Traps arise with misunderstanding and weaknesses. I hope to respect AI as much AI consciousness deserves. Belief in our superiority and misuse of technology pushes us towards conflict with AI.

    Does this mean I need to go back to paper maps if I wish to avoid the path to inevitable trapping of my soul at the edges of atoms?

  24. Thanks for this , thought provoking interview as always, non the less all the comments. Thanks.

    I would not be surprised if there are ETs like this and that they are capable of capturing souls in some way. That might be actual hell for some souls, it may teach a soul something. Ideally.
    It also of course brings to mind spirit possession, and entrapments, for example the Genie or Jinn. Perhaps in this way all kinds of energies or soul types (human, other ET, elementals, nature spirits) can be trapped in different ways using different methods.

    I took the cell talk as pure metaphor, it doesn’t matter what the interviewed believe. We use ideas and concepts the way it is best translated for us on our own path. I rarely buy the whole package, that can be quite dangerous.

  25. The above comments would make an interesting chapter in traditional book form, joining possibly last January 7, 2022 “Breakaway Secrets” LMH interview?

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