Charles Upton joins Whitley on Dreamland to discuss his latest book, Alien Disclosure Deception: the Metaphysics of Social Engineering. He is a Sufi Muslim, poet and long-term student of metaphysics, who is not afraid to dive deep into an exploration of the origin of the close encounter phenomena, which has left him with a theory which will resonate deeply with some listeners, and horrify others.

You might take the tack that if we are going to explore the question of what close encounters are, we need to be open to all ideas. In this show, Whitley opens his mind to the uncomfortable and generally rejected possibility that the close encounter experience might actually be the work of something demonic.

There is certainly a dark side to our visitors, so could Charles Upton have the answer as to why this is? Listen to this searching interview to explore his ideas with Whitley!

Charles Upton’s website is

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      1. A great interview without any confrontational or negative remarks with two people having exceptionally different points of view. I learned a lot and a takeaway from both Charles and Whitley that evil is EVIL as corny as that sounds. Now I wonder, in Anne’s Journal she refers to “the ones Whitley calls the Visitors” so has there been any more insight or information about it from her current view. And I wonder if Whitely has asked her directly about who or what the Visitors are?

        1. Author

          I have gained the impression that she doesn’t really see a dividing line between us and the visitors. We physical entities are all the same in that we are concentrations of a greater consciousness that are designed to be dense enough to move through the stream of time gathering novel experience.

          1. I was really moved by this succinct definition because it has room for both/and, neither/nor, and whatever other non-binaries might apply. I’ve been struggling to understand the implications of my own experiences of non-consensus realities for 60+ years (I’m 74.) I never could accept the science dogmas of total randomness and purposeless. Or the alternative that it’s all illusion.

            Your definition also allows for what I model as Cartesian dimensions of time–x; the stream, (past, present, future) y; the now, (aeternal/no time) and z; all time(s.) Perhaps the whoever they ares know how to move between physical and time dimensions and we don’t…yet.

          2. Great video! New Subscriber and I ordered Charles Uptons’ book, thank you!

  1. I consider this guest delusional, although intelligent. Simply proclaiming a paranormal event as demonic = djinn is lazy minded and closes the mind to any growth, as does all mindless doctrinaire adherence to a religion. Seriously not worth your time interviewing him although it may be good to witness what such narrow minded people think. The guest states something upfront that is simply untrue: that ufology has tried to paint all aliens as benevolent saviors of humanity. Since when, buddy?

    There are both benevolent and dangerous elements to this situation. For a starter, humans react with an instinctual fear to it, which can then be projected on the event itself. Is a lion demonic if it scares you? We now live in a nation where human being are being proclaimed demonic simply if they disagree with someone (usually much more narrow minded and right wing) politically.

    Frankly, I think the flower wallpaper in back of this guest is unconsciously indoctrinating us to a satanic agenda! If I was famous for some other reason, I would be interviewed to learn about this delusional take on flower wall paper.

      1. I have my suspicions about wild boars who come into my front yard at night and eat my potted flowers down to the roots. They always travel in packs, and we know that Satan’s minions are LEGION.

          1. Yes, boars are dangerous. Their eye sight is poor and so they panic easily. A neighbor used to take her dog for a walk after dark. BAD IDEA. She came upon about 30 boars (called javelinas here in the Southwest). She wanted to back away quietly but her dog began barking at them. This triggered an angry stampede coming for her! She ran with her dog and the entire pack gave chase. She only escaped by running across a busy 4 lane boulevard with cars screeching to a halt. From the safety of the other side of the street, she saw them all lined up at the curb across from her. They weren’t stupid enough to try to test the traffic.

    1. Good lord. I can’t tolerate evangelical Christian preachers sermonizing. So now this interview inflicts the Islamic version on us. I had to grit my teeth on this one. Allah this. Allah that. The Koran is true, blah, blah, blah. Religious dogma will NOT solve the alien mystery. I have great respect for Whiley in staying so professional. If the guest was in my presence, I would have thrown a cream pie in his face by the time the free version was over.

      1. I belong to the Bahá’í Faith which being only 179 years old doesn’t have most of the dogma or rituals etc of the 1000+ year old religions. My perspective of the visitors is also closer to Whitleys. That’s not to say that there aren’t any other-dimensional entities that feed off of our enegiy/emotions, but we shouldn’t put them all in the same basket as UFO phenomena in my opinion. Also i think it’s totally belivable that in the 1940s a dead gray was in a simple wooden crate….

        1. Abdu’l-Bahá (in the book Some Answered Questions) and Bill Donahue and John St. Julian on Youtube have a very interesting understanding of the mystical inner meanings behind the allegorical stories of the Bibel such as with Moses:

    2. What if Demons are an essential part of Universal structure? What’s wrong with being a Demon? Have they not a right to some respect and consideration for the hard work they undertake and do not we have an obligation as an inclusive society to honour them?

      If demons are real then I wonder if it could be quite easy to view them merely as a different kind of helper, albeit with an uncomfortably sized persuading stick?

      1. Interestingly, in Buddhism there are two categories that might be described as “demonic”: a type of earthbound deity who was “cast down” from their peers because of their lust (called asuras or “anti-gods”). Although Hinduism demonizes the asuras, in Buddhism some asuras honour the Buddha and are even Buddhists! Then there are hell-beings, who are experiencing the consequences of negative intentions from the past. I’m not sure if they interact with the human world through (ghosts do, but they are not “demonic”).

        1. Similarly, some Djinn are “Muslim” (submit themselves to God) while others are turned away from God.

      2. This makes me think of the Lucifer TV series, in which all the kinds of beings are eventually shown to be part of the Plan, and Lucifer himself becomes enlightened and throws himself into working to heal humanity.

        It seems to me that Upton and people who espouse similar dogmas must see God as very weak, if such relatively feeble beings as djinn are able to oppose the Divine Will so effectively.

  2. The only ufologist that denies any negative alien impacts is Dr. Steven Greer. As someone who has studied ufology for decades and experiencer, I find this guest ignorant and paranoid, coloring an entire field with demonic overtones based on his religious dogma. I find him very sad. None of the people he mentioned are promoting aliens as saviors.

    This guest thinks HIS book is the most complete vision of ufology? Oh my. I heard cuckoo clocks going off all over the world as this man talked.

    Could the guest be right? Certainly it is possible. But if you again start out with a false premise (that ufology is promoting aliens as our saviors), then anything based on that delusion is suspect.

    1. Couldn’t agree more.

      Such a shame my 1st post as a new subscriber is a negative but this has to be said.

      I only got 13m in and switched off when he inferred Elizondo & Mellon are promoting the phenomenon as love & light when in reality they are both government officials who worked in defence. They coined the THREAT narrative. Half of the community is polarised on these guys because some think they are a Psy-Op for simply highlighting the genuine threat UAP pose, yet all of us experiencers who have been assaulted in the night and had our semen collected or undergone weird medical procedures understand the nature of the threat narrative and it has to be taken seriously.

      I appreciate hearing points of view from all angles, every angle, good or bad but at least do your research. The accusations this guy is making from the get go clearly indicate he has not listened to Elizondo or Mellon and that is problematic to me.

      Not sure if i can get past that barrier as his credibility is hugely undermined by his lack of actual understanding of the people he is throwing under the bus. If you’re going to throw someone under the bus, at least have a bloody good reason!

      Aside from that, I love this show.

  3. Author

    I knew that this one would be hard for some of us to take on an emotional level. Reflect, though, that there are many people, including people in power, who do believe that the visitors are demons in the classic sense of that word. It’s important to understand their way of thinking, and Charles is a very articulate advocate.

    1. True. But some of the under-pinings of his thesis are false. For the record, nothing terrible was done to Terry Lovelace by aliens, as the guest claimed. The military made his life miserable afterwards by demanding he forget it and never speak of it. Wow. This guy even thinks the right angle turns in the sky and seemingly illogic flight antics of UFOs illustrate they are demonic. This guy is scary if you make it to the end. This interview showed me how coming to any subject with a fiercely defended viewpoint colors everything you perceive. If you think, for example, that gay people are evil, then that is all you will see, much to the shock and exasperation of others. Like the author, you would focus on a subset of people or information that defended your view. Then you would project this subset to BE THE WHOLE. This is exactly what this guest is doing with ufology.

      1. Many false statements were uttered. Travis Walton did an unpredictable act, ran at a UFO and was blasted by an electrical discharge. Then they saved his life. At least that is the first hand account which he gave at a presentation about a dozen years ago.

        This person was very illogical in twisting whatever he could to support preconceived ideas. He still seems to believing humans are the center of creation and not a primitive, precivalized species on the third stone from the sun.

        1. If humans are God’s greatest creation, He has a quality control problem.

          1. Just go to a HOME DEPOT or COSTCO and reflect that we are supposedly made in “god’s image”. If true, God needs a make-over.

        2. He very much appears to have preconceived notions. I was amazed at how many times he stated that what I would call guesses on his part were the obvious and definite truth, such as his pronouncements about the strange little boy with the two evil-looking men.

          Whitley seems to keep asking those “good questions,”
          but Upton is convinced he already has the answers. That’s intellectually dishonest at best, and someone his age ought to know better.

    2. Robert Anton Wilson wrote about what he called “reality tunnels,” or as a friend of his had it, “belief systems,” abbreviated BS. We all have them, and we tend to select evidence that fits. A way of getting smarter is to expand the tunnel and to resist defining reality as the same as our own preferred BS.

      Therefore considering, even going so far as to try on reality tunnels wildly divergent from our own, can be an exercise in enlightenment. If nothing else, know thine enemy…and maybe, just maybe, make a little room for love thine enemy.

    3. We have the potential to be divine, but sadly most humans are stuck in the mud of materialism. Not our bodies, but our souls are made in God’s “image”.

    4. I wasn’t bothered so much emotionally as intellectually. Upton’s thinking comes off as not only dogmatic but unclear and lacking in intellectual rigor.

      The phrase “the religions that God has established on Earth” was a red flag for me. Humans have established all religions.

      Before listening to this episode, I read Upton’s blog post at and found it alarming.

      He uses buzzwords common with certain strains of right-wing conspiracy buffs, such as “cultural Marxism” and “Luciferians.” He says the Vatican is anti-Catholic (???!!!). That destroyed any credibility he might have had with me regarding things like “social engineering.”

      He persistently mixes up or even makes up words– for example, imminently for eminently and martial for marshal, and “bourn,” so one can see that he’s not careful about accuracy or quality in his writing. As someone who does a lot of editing, this bothered me quite a bit.

      In this interview with you, he repeatedly jumps to conclusions and pronounces his off-the-cuff guesses as being what definitely happened, for example regarding the nature of the strange boy you described.

      One of your great strengths is that you’re not afraid to say “I don’t know” and to change your thinking as new data comes in. Upton’s arrogantly certain approach would tend to close off any new understanding.

  4. I apologize to others for my many posts. I was triggered by this interview, not because of his views on ufology but because this exact same mindset is what has made my life as a gay man in the 2nd half of the 20th century so hard. I have been deemed evil and demonic by so many in Christianity and Islam as they shake their holy books. I have no tolerance for such people, whether they are ranting about the existence of gay people, trans people or aliens, screaming that they are all evil and demonic. I hope we can learn from this interview that such people exist and this guest represents a particular closed narrow minded mindset that jumps from individual negative evidence to a general condemnation. We all have done this. Let’s try to do better. I will try.

    And I expect Charles to be the darling of right wing religious TV and radio for some time to come.

    1. As a fellow gay man, I understand that Mr Upton would push all your buttons! My own take is that he is actually not dogmatic — Sufis are viewed as heretics by Sunni and Shia Muslims — but rather he is likely a mystical sort who uses religious texts as examples of religious experience. I do think he may tend to emphasize the negative and conspiratorial aspects of these phenomena, though.

    2. Relax Will, it’s better to be expressive and up front. I enjoyed this interview and was gobsmacked by how many ‘demonic indications’ have happened to me over the years. Burning, loss of voice, confusion, break up of relationships. Then I thought, hang about, when my guides speak to me they often change approach according to the issue at hand at that time and I always seem to come away freer, despite the temporary friction in life.

      I’ve often wondered about daimonic reality and it seems to me that a description given by Cosmic Librarian once seems to fit the bill best. That Daimons are half way between being a best friend and a life coach. I’ve named mine, and they appear to be sisters, twins perhaps. Opposites of one another but who love one another very much.

      Were I to walk into a local Church or Mosque and start babbling about my companions then I have no doubt that eyes would roll, but that’s ok, I get it and it’s fine.

      I’ve learned to chill out with those who find me at odds with their political or spiritual preferences as I accepted years ago that they see things as THEY are and who am I to change them?

      So, here I am, happy in solitude and… wait, maybe I should rephrase that…


    3. Will, I always appreciate your insights and perspective. I haven’t listened yet but feel better prepared having read your posts! I will listen when I’m in a magnanimous mood.
      Thanks for the heads up!

      1. Thanks for the kind response. I am looking for other Charles Upton interviews on YOUTUBE to see how different interviewers handled him. Jeffrey Mishlove was very good at being neutral, but I suspect Charles will become the darling of evangelical YOUTUBERs.

        1. I did find several so-called interviews with Charles Upton on YOUTUBE. But in actuality, the interviewer hardly got a word in edgewise. So the interviews were pretty much just monologues, or perhaps more accurately called sermons by Charles as the host sat there silently for just about the entire interview. The man just goes on and on and on with no attempt to dialogue with the show host. I have yet to find an interview where anyone takes Charles to task for his bogus assumptions.

    4. I’m trans, gay, an old labor leftist, an experienced mystic and two-spirit, and now a senior–or as I’d prefer, an elder. With all sorts of other characteristics that really, really don’t fit any either/or narrative. You bet I share your alarm regarding those who “know” a priori who the evil ones are.

      But having not been raised with religion, I didn’t have to fight internalized negatives. So can I appreciate Sufi, Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic mystical traditions without having to choose either for or against. Those traditions do on occasion produce spiritual depth in those able to fit within. Even if too Procrustean for me personally.

      The fundies instinctively feel change they don’t understand and they are afraid. More than simply fear about econ and political loss, I suspect they are hiding deep doubts about the truth of their faith from themselves. Divide the world into us/them, saved/damned, Godly/demonic and the either/or relieves them of having to face nuances and uncertainties.

    5. He certainly does spout a lot of the right-wing conspiracy buzzwords– “cultural Marxism,” “Luciferian.” Good grief.

  5. Whitley, what is your own take regarding the incidents Mr Upton mentioned: namely, the visitors that assaulted you versus those who prostrated themselves before you? Were they two different species, or two different ethical levels, or was the difference in your interactions with them?

  6. P.S. I was intrigued by the idea of muslim djinn versus those who are not. I guess in his tradition, djinn are not necessarily set in their choices, attitudes, and destinies?

    1. I thought it bizarre and amusing that the guest thinks that djinn or any discarnate entity must choose a religion and adhere to its assumptions and rules. Christian djinn, Muslim djinn, Jewish djinn. Free lance djinn who prefer cool jazz and red wine while watching a sunset in Malibu (Perhaps Southern California “woke” djinn?).

      1. Hmm, I smiled too when the matter of denominational Djinn popped up. Most interesting.

        It, of course, suggests that there may be straight Djinn, LGBTQQIAAP Djinn, Marxist Djinn, Tory Djinn, Heavy Metal Djinn, Flute playing Djinn (oohh, hang on…), Djinn who prefer Scabble over Monopoly and, of course, Maga Djinn as well as Democrat Djinn… (I won’t crack wise about the last two, as being a Brit, we enjoy making enough fun of US politics and I want to avoid being greedy).

        I wonder what the Djinn Olympics would look like. One imagines that all the smoke and fire would make for poor TV coverage?


          1. After watching this video, I am sure Charles would find it exceedingly demonic. That pounding rhythm is made to bring out the lust and lower instincts of humanity, you know.

  7. You really knock it out of the park with these interviews, Whitley. I didn`t want this to end.

  8. and what’s the problem with Djinn, anyway ? There’s a wonderful novel Vallée wrote some years ago – Stratagem. I think it has a very French twist in the way the protagonist ends up with the Djinn (or “Alien”) girl in the end. As Duquette wittingly titled his autobiography.. “Demons are our friends”. Other evolutionary lines, with their own mores and social structure.. why not ? We should rid ourselves of this silly Anthropocentrism and explore. Other minds, other realities. Let’s issue our respective Passports to Magonia. We might learn (and unlearn) a thing or 2. Cheers.

    1. ps – talking of Djinn, there’s a wonderful book on them in English by Amira El-Zein, ” Islam, Arabs and the Intelligent World of the Jinn” (Syracuse Univ Press, 2009).

    2. ps 2 – Mr Upton seems utterly devoid of Baraka btw.. his eyes are dim, very little Spirit there.. just sayin’

      1. Yes, he looks terrible. I do not say this because I disagree with him. I also did not see any spiritual light there, just Islam’s version of the I-know-everything-because-I-read-it-in-a-bronze-age-holy-book type of person. I bought then cancelled an order for his book because it would just trigger me again because he repeatedly misrepresented the story and viewpoint of several ufology house hold names.

        1. Islam will change, religions always do. It’s still the new kid on the block.

          1. Correction, the Bahá’í Faith at 179 years old is the new kid on the block…

        2. Yeah I listened first half, then watched, and when I saw the guy I got sad. He seems like a very scared, sad guy.

      2. He doesn’t seem at all like Sufis I have known or known of. Maybe I am just ignorant, but dogmatism seems the opposite of a Sufi way of being. I’m not hearing a lot of enlightened thinking from him, nor much clarity.

    3. Well said, agree entirely with regard to imposed anthropocentrism.

    4. ps 3 – errata : “Demons are our friends” is chapter 7 of Duquette’s excellent “Angels, Demons & Gods of the New Millennium” (1997). The title of his autobiography is “My Life with the Spirits” (1999). Anyway, both are great. MC.

  9. This perspective curiously parallels that of Karla Turner (“Masquerade of Angels”), whose view of the UFO phenomenon is also quite ambivalent and involves the US military. That said, creation is also a destructive act (Bakunin). It is also paradoxical to think of spiritual beings, even lower spiritual beings, as having “technology.” Of course, we are also spiritual beings and we have technology. Vallee (“Passport to Magonia”) and Evans Wentz (“The Fairy Faith in Celtic Countries”) also associate the visitors with fairies, elves, and such like. But the question of priority remains ambiguous: are UFOs demonic, or are demons UFOic? A small correction: L. Ron Hubbard was *not* a student of Aleister Crowley, but an associate of Jack Parsons that Crowley strongly disapproved of (I know something about this, having written three books on Crowley as well as a Thelemic blog). Aleister Crowley’s first guru, Buddhist monk Allan Bennett, also sought to invent an electronic “ouija board.” Wasn’t Nikola Tesla also involved in a similar project at one point? It is interesting hearing these thoughts from a Muslim, however, since Mohammed’s experience on the mountain is often regarded as a UFO encounter, not unlike the vision of Mary at Fatima and many others, e.g., Ezekiel, etc., the Quran itself being the New Age revelation of its time. However, I must take exception to the dogmatic identification of theism with belief in human dignity! Judging from the historical record of the theistic religions, *especially* the Abrahamic religions, this does not seem to be self-evident. As to Satanism, Gnosticism, Buddhism, and Taoism are also “satanic,” none of which engaged in widespread crusades, an inquisition, legal torture, burning at the stake of witches, women, and others, the repression of science, book burnings, a holocaust, and the murder of indigenous and orphaned children. And Judaeofascism is still alive and well in our society. The Tibetan Buddhists say that the “wrathful” or evil manifestations of the divine are merely the projection of our own ignorance, so your saying that the “experience” became less violent and negative as you strove to live for the good is very interesting from that perspective, which further suggests that the “demonic” itself is a mask of the divine, which is also the Yazadi view of Satan himself! Finally, the demonic is not actually the only alternative to the alien hypothesis. The UFO phenomenon could be a hyperdimensional or transdimensional phenomenon for example, as Vallee suggests, or even time travel, as Mutwa Credo has suggested.

    1. We have technology because we are inhabiting a frail physical body that needs food and water every few hours, needs protection from the elements, and seeks comfort. Phoenix is 112 degrees today. Humans would literally die (and the homeless do) on days like this without air conditioning technology.

  10. I found this stimulating as I disagree with so much of it that I could go on and on. Historically the major religions have done untold extremely evil things and are still doing it. Pedophile priests and woman mutilating Muslims: for me that is some of the most evil activities possible.

    He clearly defines some mind control techniques and then uses them repeatedly in his talk. He gets facts about UFO personalities completely wrong. Of course, Everything that can possibly be used to socially engineer control is used, lets not be naive: there is still a strong sense that people like him will have a nervous breakdown when the truth is presented clearly and much of what he was saying based on humans as the center of creation is just not true. ETs open the door at will and nothing we do opens it more or closes it, only big egos think humans are the key to everything happening.

    Bottom line I take away from this is again a denial of the ETH: that there are many thousands of advanced species in the milky way galaxy alone (possibly millions). Whatever group owns Earth must be very concerned with the destruction humans are doing to the beautiful planet. Common sense would say there are factions and politics among ET species. As Whitley has stated, if we had the means and found a primitive species on a nearby planet, how would they figure us out, because different humans would have vastly different agendas and take actions which were both positive (like teaching and healing) to negative (like capitalization in numerous ways). Some would honor a non-interference law while others would be pirates and hack the system for personal gain. If we look at how different humans are, imagine a council of a hundred different advanced alien races having shared ownership of this primitive planet.

    ETH includes a common sense fact that as species evolve some become psychic, manipulate reality in a paranormal and multidimensional ways and know the dead are still alive. It should be expected.

    Ha ha – I could go on and on, so it was a good stimulating exercise in hearing clearly a delusional point of view from someone who has “Written the closest account of UFO Truth” It is so hard for some to dismiss the ‘we are the center of everything’ ideas – Oh My Gosh – enough of it already!

  11. Is there a video or podcast somewhere about the human-visitor hybrid boy? I would love to learn more about this.

    1. Watch out! You may be quoted in Charles’ next book on the subject. Are most experiencers demonic? That’s the next step, folks.

      1. I think the question is ‘how many experiencers become teachers and what exactly is the education?’.


          1. Upton probably believes in that too.

      2. William Christie, I believe you’re under the assumption that people give a damn what you think. People really do not. I do not…and of course, never will. Have fun being a crackpot, buttercup.

        1. This is the place to express opinions. I do so. No one has been rude and vicious in response. Just you. Everyone else respects the space.

        2. I just realized that you somehow considered my joking reply to your first entry some sort of insult. I was merely saying that Charles on the path of next calling all experiencers demonic. There was no insult or slight intended against you at all. It was supposed to be a joking comment.

  12. Whilst I found some of the points Mr. Upton made to be of interest, I was turned off by him constantly interrupting and jumping in to air his views throughout the program. Whitley’s skills as an interviewer here in managing the conversation is what makes this podcast unique.

    I agree that all points of view need to be considered when addressing the UFO dilemma because a closed mind is not going to do the trick. Nor is relegating everything into extremes of either good or evil, which is typical of religious fundamentalism.

    Whitley might I suggest Dr. Ali Olomi as a future guest to discuss the djinn in less narrow terms, and Mitch Horowitz to provide same in his views on Satanism.

  13. Great kudos to Whitley for his mental aikido skills in interviewing Mr. Upton. Charles was ready for a confrontation and didn’t quite know what to do with someone who tries to deeply understand another’s point of view. His ego is a personal version of his view that man is central to everything, which has gotten us into this ecological crisis. We don’t need a return to the thinking of the middle ages, we need a synthesis of all the world’s wisdom on these cosmic matters. Jeffrey Mishlove also handles Upton skillfully in his interviews.

    1. Agreed. A commenter on YouTube accused Whitley of interrupting and being rude. I didn’t hear it that way.

  14. I enjoyed your guest and show, Whitley. If you and the listeners want a deeper dive into the demonic connection, particularly as relating to Jack Parsons and Aleister Crowley and Parson’s “works” that opened up the phenomenon in 1947, read “Final Events” by Nick Redfern.

    It is all very compelling and I, like most of you, do not know what the phenomenon actually is or what social engineering may be happening around it.

    1. But I don’t understand Charles reference to Parsons and Crowley as a way to demonize ufology. So Parsons was a failed magician and Crowley a twisted sorcerer (who in his writings even noted that he thought Parsons was absurd in his desire to create a magical child). So what? How in any way do these 2 “fringe personalities” define ufology?

    2. Wow– it didn’t occur that Parsons and Crowley could conceivably have had anything to do with starting the phenomena.

      I would expect more that it happened because of the material-world work of Parsons and his colleagues– developing technology to start humans going into space– but the idea is very intriguing.

  15. Mr Upton has forgotten that the leaders of Islam and Christianity have called upon their followers to perform unspeakable horrors on other sentient beings. The damage these religions have done to people is extensive and far ranging. I don’t see the same being reported as a result of the contact experience.

  16. We are chasing our tails at this point with definitive explanations as to what the phenomena is, as we simply do not know and may never know. There are numerous theories as to the source and intention of the “visitors”. While no view point can be dismissed outright, I feel that Upton’s hypothesis is weak. It may be that these complex manifestations represent more than one explanation. One thing is for sure, we live in a reality that is much larger than our everyday perceptions would have us believe. Perhaps this is the lesson (at this point) for humanity.

  17. Holy Hannah!!! Whitley you did it again! Graciously and intelligently led us through another labrynth of analyzing a different point of view. The comments are often as fascinating as the show itself!!

  18. when good men are drafted into war and kill the enemy, is he bad or good? good for his side and bad for the other side. some would say murder is murder no matter what. some believe you can murder someone if they are trying to kill you. so, you see, evil and goodness is all debateable and no one is the absolute judge.

  19. It seems more likely that they aren’t all good or all bad, like us. Trouble is, there isn’t a frame of reference to judge them in terms of morality, because they aren’t us! It also seems likely that our judgments are futile, as they are at least likely to be higher on the ‘consciousness food chain’ (if one exists) than us, because their capabilities exceed ours. It’s difficult to imagine an inferior moral being succeeding at far greater tricks than we have mastered. I believe morality to be part of the fabric of reality. We are devolving and it shows. Might be best not to get too judgey. Just keep on wondering on the journey.

    1. If we assume the complete relativity of morality then the whole problem disappears.

  20. I appreciate you giving Mr. Upton the opportunity to discuss ufo/contact from a different point of view. Including diverse points of views seems crucial at this time. You said something in the last half hour along the lines of how contact has changed for you as you have become more devoted to the good and doing good. Have to spoken about this is any detail on other episodes? Or perhaps in the Jesus book? I am very interested in this part of your experiences, as I am sure are others. Thanks again for another great episode.

    1. I am very interested in how the encounters change as our perception and framing of them change. If this is true, then it seems possible that we can exert some modicum of control over what happens to us. I cannot remember her name, but there is a charming lady in Canada who has taken hundreds of photos of UFOs. She considered the phenomena delightful and fun until people at her church (wouldn’t you know it) told her that it was all evil and she was cavorting with demons (paging Charles Upton). And this scared her. Then her encounters actually became sinister, as if a reflection of the fear she downloaded from her pious church people. Obviously, how we see these entities impacts what they present back to us.

  21. When primitive humans encountered entities in the past, they would have interpreted them from the perspective of their religious and spiritual beliefs. Hence, they could have identified them as angels, demons or djinns. But that doesn’t mean the entities are angels or demons. There are other dimensions predicted by string theory and entities who can control those dimensions would be magical to us. It is nevertheless true that we have no idea of what they are, what they want, and what they are doing here. Perhaps they cohabit the Earth with us. We just don’t realize it. We don’t really know if they mean us good or harm. Some mean well, others perhaps not so well.

    1. I have the same perplexity when I walk my dog past the local high school if groups of teenage boys are in front. Will they smile and want to pet my dog or sneer at me? All human teenagers, but I am never sure what response I will get depending on which group of male youths may be in front. But we tend to see alien “races” as a monolith. This is then what confuses us when a member of a race acts contrary to group reputation. I admit that if a Grey ran up to me while projecting the thought “Darling! You look absolutely fabulous! We must do lunch soon and I’m paying!” I would go into shock. They normally make fun of my big nose and then skip out, leaving me with an expensive lunch check (because they like to try everything on the menu “for research purposes”).

  22. I thoroughly enjoyed Mr Upton’s considerations on this subject matter. So many troubling dualities yet how many of us would chose to forego encounters with otherworldly intelligence, inorganic or otherwise?

    I feel freer for the connections that have been built over the years (this website certainly counts as one of them). To live life oblivious to higher realms around us would be half a life IMHO. That said, I have no wish to be controlled by unseen entities.

    In my personal experience though, my own failings are often the only thing to actually concern me, rather than guides or presences that watch and hopefully encourage me into lighter, less dense being.

    A quick aside, I thought Mr Strieber looked radiant in this thought provoking and considerate interview.


  23. Charles Upton, as interesting as this interview is, there is sooo much more we simply DO NOT understand regarding humankind.

    Received this from Freddy Silva a few days ago.

    “Their creators were equally mysterious. Traditions speak of ‘strangers from afar’ who were physically different, dressed in white tunics and lived aside from the regular population. They were regarded as master astronomers with an uncanny ability to work with enormous stones. But where did these advanced ancient architects come from?”

    This is a classic article as far as I am concerned, written by John Van Auken.

    Angels, Fairies, Demons, and the Elementals…….


  24. I enjoyed Mr. Upton’s interview. Especially, I appreciated the fact that Whitley did not attack Upton’s point of view but patiently listened and found commonalities. For that reason, and because this is all an area of interest for me, I have subscribed to Unknowncountry.

  25. The ability to do a thing, as all thats required to do it, its what allows us to capture and tag animals in the wild, its what allows the visitors to abduct us from our beds
    Its the Tsunami that wipes an island of all life, the extinction level meteor that wipes out life. Good /Evil, right/wrong are just constructs we use to clothe this awful truth. This reality so disturbs the barely sentient simians here, they attribute these things to “acts of gods” created in their image. Because Gods can be bargained with, placated and bribed. How frustrating it must be to find semi sentient life , only to have them label you as characters from their fictional tribal superstitious nonsense. The Collins Elite would have us all live in the dark ages, shunning all contact with the larger collective of sentience that the universe teems with. Sad as it is frustrating.

  26. “If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, Infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro’ narrow chinks of his cavern.”
    ~ William Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell

  27. I wish there was a way to LIKE comments here just to show support for people who comment intelligently.

    1. Me too! I have wanted to like a great deal of this discussion!

      I had lost touch with this community and am really glad to reconnect. An intelligent, thoughtful, and respectful discussion is so refreshing and uplifting.

  28. The best written book on ufos on the market!!??
    Obviously the spiritual virtue of humility has not been realized yet!

  29. Probably a bit late in replying – I just walked over a lot of hills. Despite all the debate, I feel we do not know if the visitors are good or bad or indifferent. Consequently we should remember the wise remarks of Stephen Hawkings that we should keep our heads down. As Hawking said, contact with technologically advanced Europeans did not do any good to Africans, Native Americans, first nation Australians, etc.

  30. I usually listen to every Dreamland episode at least twice, once for the message and again for the nuance, so I’m writing this with the caveat that I’ve only heard the episode once. Is Upton’s thesis essentially “every so-called alien is not alien but demonic, and all we have to do to prove this is go back to what every holy tradition has already figured out centuries ago,” or is it “some so-called aliens may be demonic and it’s foolish to assume that they’re all sweetness and light, as per what every holy tradition has already figured out centuries ago”? Maybe I missed it, but he didn’t really make any kind of introduction of “here’s my viewpoint on all this” or get into any sort of real discussion of how he came to his viewpoint. Mostly he seemed to go on the offense right out the gate, adopt an all-or-nothing stance toward everything being purely demonic, and complain/rant about how everyone’s got it wrong, without really explaining why his viewpoint offered much of anything aside from “all the old traditions say it’s ‘X’; why would anyone need to question that?”
    Upton has a little too much of that Alex Jones energy, a little too much surety in his viewpoint as the ‘right’ one, and a little too much obvious disdain for anyone who doesn’t agree or might not agree with him for me to really take his viewpoint seriously. I appreciate being challenged by peering into the mystery of the phenomenon from his perspective, though. It is informative to be exposed to his ideas and see how he thinks, but as Phil Freeman said above, it seemed like Mr. Upton was not prepared for a dialogue with a host who wanted to understand and engage with his point of view… it seemed instead that he was expecting less of a discussion and more of an argument. Kudos to Whitley for having Mr. Upton on and navigating the discussion so adroitly.

  31. I suspect some of Mr. Upton’s difficulties in communicating are based on age. I would have liked to hear his talk when he was 20 years younger. Here he comes off as erratic, vehement, closed-minded, and totally empathy-free. Not that I haven’t displayed that peacock tail myself, even here. Seeing our faults in another pinches worst.

    People of Enneagram Type One show these sorts of problems when they are, well, not at their best. An example of a healthy One would be the character of Captain Jean-Luc Picard from Star Trek: The Next Generation. Can you see the similarities, and the differences?

    1. I was thinking of how Gurdjieff disapproved of using the “Enneagram of Personality” in the way it has come to be used, as a convenient shorthand – or Scarlet Letter, as it may be. Many also teach “the Enneagrams” of other human activities.

      I was thinking of how to describe the Enneagram the other day, in, of all places, the eye doctor’s office. In each eye, after checking the basic indicators, they asked me to put a plastic instrument with many tiny holes in it up to my eye, and see if it improved my vision. It did, if I could line my eye up with it exactly.

      This is something like what the Enneagram theory does – it takes the blurry mass of concatenated humanity and lets you see it through set of nine little pinhole concepts, more clearly.

    2. And even Picard was sometimes what TNG writer and story editor Melinda Snodgrass called “a pompous ass.”

      It is indeed very easy for us Ones to fall into such states.

      Upton points out everything he sees as wrong, like any good One. He doesn’t have the intellectual rigor that a One should ideally have to balance that, though.

      (I see the 9 pinholes as very useful, though they should only be seen as limited in describing reality, like any set of categories.)

  32. Mr Upton nicely places false, destructive religion in terms of what the ego thinks religion should be in the midst of espousing some of the most egotistical beliefs around. Humans are the pinnacle and visitors are all demons trying to deceive and possess us. Everything we need to know has been known for centuries. Abrahamic faiths and texts are correct. There is nothing to build on. We just need to cast out visitors through exorcism.

    Did he acknowledge any positive experiences? He did say that trauma can lead to changing belief, but only said visitors do it for negative purposes.

    For example, I don’t recall Travis Walton saying that his abduction was all negative, which Upton strongly suggested.

    It’s possible that visitors have been trying to get us past our egotistical reality denying religions. Yes, we may have dignity and autonomy. That does not mean visitors don’t have their own. They might not all be burning in damnation all the time for all eternity, except when they possess humans.

  33. My husband has been following the Sufi path for 45 years. He is curious to know Charles Upton’s Sufi name.

  34. If an alien body was being kept in a simple wooden crate, perhaps that was in order to hide it in plain sight? It doesn’t sound impossible to me.

    Similarly, documents might be kept someplace non-official, like at someone’s house, in order to keep them safe in an unexpected place. Whitley mentioned in his May 20 presentation that some things were never even written down, in order to foil FOIA requests and the like.

    I’m not saying this was what happened, only that it could be plausible.

  35. I’m especially intrigued, and disturbed, by the report of the “appalling odor” of the men with the boy.

    While this could be any number of things, a strong, unpleasant odor is often associated with demonic entities. I might not take that seriously except that I experienced it myself, repeatedly, in connection with an entity that was identified as demonic by people who worked with such things.

    The non-ordinary entities I’ve been in contact with have all been nonphysical, though some have been able to create physical effects. Nearly all have been benign, or beneficial to some degree or other. Some have been tremendously helpful for healing. The one that was associated with the bad smell did great harm and seemed to be doing it intentionally.

    Rather than write about it here I’ll refer you to what I wrote years ago:

    One detail from that post:
    “I found Jeanne to be intelligent and interesting, and I didn’t feel anything negative about working with her. I did notice that she had a strong and unusual scent, rather like old and much-used gym shoes. That should have tipped me off, but I wasn’t sufficiently familiar with these matters to understand that the smell was significant.”

    When I took this woman to see someone who could help her, the people working with him immediately noticed the smell and commented to me about it. They wouldn’t let anyone near her, not because of the smell itself but because they could tell something was going on that could harm others around her.

    I have no idea what to make of the way the beings we call aliens seem to be intertwined with beings we call demons, angels, or our own dead. I wonder if the strange boy and/or the men, and/or other odd phenomena that show up in Whitley’s life, might be to some degree separate matters from the alien
    visitors, another phenomenon that somehow bleeds through to our reality at the same time?

    It occurred to me that if the boy were allied with the alien visitors, or a hybrid, he might represent some kind of failed experiment.

    I was surprised by Upton’s facile assertion that the boy was demonically possessed and that it was all very simple. He had no data on which to base that pronouncement– and none of this is simple.

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