Alex Tsakiris of the Skeptiko podcast joins Whitley for an intense and wide-ranging discussion of evil, what it is, where it is, what it does and above all, why in this age of denial and materialistic skepticism about all things numinous it MATTERS MORE THAN EVER.

From the evil that corrupted and destroyed the Roman Empire to JPL Founder Jack Parsons’ notorious flirtation with people like Aleister Crowley and the rituals they performed to evoke dark entities and powers, they explore what this is and how it works in our world. The organization that Parsons founded, for example, became a repository of secrets, which it remains to this day. The intentions are good, but excessive official secrecy has so corroded public trust in government that it has to be identified as an evil. But what, then, was its origin. Is there somebody–or something–that “wanders the world seeking the ruin of souls” as the 19th Century Prayer to St. Michael would have it, or is it deeper, more subtle, and darker, so intimately entwined in the search for knowledge that it must always be seen as hidden–and very dangerous–aspect of the process of discovery itself?

This is no ordinary “is Satan real or not” discussion. These two guys are way deeper thinkers than that. Join them on their journey to shine the light of the human mind into the darkest corners of evil!

You can listen to Alex’s great Skeptiko podcast in many places. Get started on his website, His book is available in our Amazon store. Click here.

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  1. I watched a film called ‘Hostiles’ a few nights ago, with Christian Bale playing the lead character, a legendary soldier, given to escort a dying Cheyenne war chief and his family back to their tribal land. In that film there is the same line as mentioned from ‘The Thin Red Line’, …words to the effect of “I was doing my job”. Who was acting out the most evil? Was it the murder, tied to a tree, who said he never layed a hand on anyone who didn’t deserve it?….Or the war hero and his sanctioned killing of those who his ‘superiors’ had decided deserved it, because they were deemed to be the enemy?… Or was it the ‘butcherer’ Cheyenne war chief, killing whole families, in the name of protecting his ancestoral land and family from desecration?

    Every one of them had justified their actions. But I think every one of them too, sensed that fly paper…until they didn’t anymore.

    Damn, ‘Hostiles’ was a good film. It really made me think about the concept of evil and this discussion annexed it perfectly. Thankyou.

    It still feels to me as if evil is a force, more than anything, that plays itself out through thoughts and actions. Maybe it can only be sensed by conscious beings but certainly has the capacity to diminish the soul. As for its origin… I don’t know… What is the origin of darkness, other than a lack of light? But the question still stands in my mind… is it us casting the shadow, or something else?

    1. The name of the film is “Hostiles.” Very compelling film.

      The New Observations podcast about to be posted with Lucinda Laughing Eagle Morel discusses evil in depth. A good synchronicity!

      1. Yes, ‘Hostiles’, thanks… I knew I’d written that down somewhere 🤔😂

  2. I haven’t even listened yet and my hackles are up! This promises to have me on the edge of my seat.

  3. I wonder whether the shadow of evil might be home-grown, so to speak. Like a dark, collective thought-form that builds to independence from the unruley minds that created it. Only to come back to haunt its creators in unexpected and cruel ways… at once seeming external, yet recognisable as an internal, mostly unspoken, part of our nature.

  4. What a wonderful show! A minor synchronicity of sorts: I had been pondering the nature of evil the last day or two, having just recently come across the story of early 20th century American mass murderer/rapist Carl Panzram, as well as from having listened this week to clinical psychologist and educator Jordan Peterson talk about the Jungian shadow within each individual.

    I do not find it paradoxical that Anne is still working with Whitley after having incarnated again.
    Jane Robert’s Seth channelings, Dr. Michael Newton’s afterlife/reincarnational research, Hank Wesselman’s shamanic visions, and probably other sources I am forgetting, all state that only a portion of a soul/entity’s energy enters the new earthly body, while another portion of the soul energy remains in the between-lives dimension.

    Whitley and others on this site have speculated about what would happen to society and individuals’ psyches if we learned we are not alone in the universe/multiverse. I wonder additionally: oh, what would be the effect on traditional Western religion, and on the new secular religion of identity politics, if we all woke up remembering we have been other ethnicities, other races, other classes, another sex/gender/sexual identity — and, to varying degrees, both good and evil? (I agree with Alex Tsakiris that no soul is eternally lost to the light.)

    The Nicene Creed makes no reference to the one who “wanders the world seeking the ruin of souls,” neither in the original version of the First Council of Nicae (325), nor in the widely utilized modified version of the First Council of Constantinople (381).
    That phrase seems to have originated with the Prayer to Saint Michael, which Pope Leo XIII introduced in the late 19th century.

  5. Yes, the prayer to St. Michael:

    “Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil; May God rebuke him, we humbly pray; And do thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all evil spirits who wander through the world for the ruin of souls. Amen.”

  6. Having been raised Roman Catholic, I am steeped in these ideas. I have read several of the late Father Malachi Martin’s books, notably Hostage to the Devil. Fr. Martin was an exorcist, and in that book he tells the stories of five or six real exorcisms. I read it, and will not read it a second time. Yes, evil is real.

  7. What a great guest Whitley, really got me thinking. How about a discussion on the Garden story from Genesis in the Bible? Adam and Eve ate of The Tree of KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil. How was that the ‘Original Sin’ that Christ died to remediate? Since beforehand humans had no concept of right and wrong, so they couldn’t have decided to disobey God.

    The Tree of Knowledge is a description of the results of a genetic experiment by our progenitors. It is the point in our early history when we became self aware and could determine our value as individuals.

    My next statement is going to ruffle a few feathers, sorry. This whole UFO, paranormal, Visitor thing is US! Engaging in the latest version of self-reflection.
    Unfortunately, we find ourselves in an echo chamber of sorts. A person yells across the canyon “Hello” and hears “Hello” back. Holy smokes, someone is there! “Who are you?” is the next logical question, and hears “Who are you?” in reply. Communication with no information.

    This effect is perfectly described by Betty Hill in the classic abduction from 1961. Here’s the conversation:

    Betty – Where are you from?
    ET – Look at this StarMap, where are you from? (the echo).

    Betty: – I don’t know…

    ET. – Then how can I tell you where I’m from, if you don’t know where you’re from?

    Ridiculous, but Sublime.

  8. So many things flowed through my mind during this interview, that I’ll just mention a a couple of them.

    First off, I feel it is important to recognize that we live in a dimension/reality of duality. If you understand that, then it is only logical that if you have good, you also have evil. The difficult thing is learning to take deep dive into which is which, because it is not always obvious. I remember one day as my younger son started to figure some things out while in college, and he told me that he was starting to see that how ‘nice’ someone appeared or acted had nothing to do with what kind of a human being they were deep down, and also that some people who who were not likable, and sometimes seemed rude, they were really great human beings who were always there for others. So, duality can throw us curve balls…

    As for nature and animals not being capable of evil, I think that a pretty good case could be made of evil occasionally using nature for its own not- so-obvious ends. Several years ago, there was a popular movie out based on a true story, ‘The Ghost and the Darkness’. The story was about two male lions, who were also brothers, and were man-killers. The fact that they killed humans was not itself evil, but all the circumstances surrounding the killings, and the games that the lions played in the way that they toyed with the people, was. They were not just killing for food, they were extremely clever, and they seemed to know exactly how they were affecting their human prey—they seemed to enjoy what they were doing.The movie fictionalized some people and events, but what actually happened was well documented in the book,’ The Man-Eaters of Tsavo’. If you realize what the British were doing at the time in building a railroad, using Africans and people from India to do the dirty work, and the disruption to the environment, it’s all kind of chilling. They were not typical lions, and they are now stuffed and mounted in The Chicago Field Museum.

    Would love to have been involved in this conversation with Tsakiris! Ignoring evil is not going to make it go away, or bypass us as individuals. It’s an expert at disguise…

  9. I felt right at home with this show . So relaxed and light . I could see the trout rod on the pole holder in front of me and visualize the two of them in lawn chairs on ether side of me as they shot the breeze and occasionally look to see if they had a bite .

    Thanks for the entertainment insight and the vision .

    1. Your image of the fly rod conjures up a personal conundrum that relates to the context of evil. I used to love trout fishing the lakes of the North Cascades until, late one afternoon, I was relaxing on the banks of an especially remote lake, watching the clear waters, and inadvertently noticed a trout poised just a few feet away and watching me. Curious and suddenly enjoying the moment, I declined the urge to grab my pole lying in the gravel. Soon there were 2 trout, then 5 and, a few minutes later, some 30 of them all radiating out with my person as the epicenter. Everything remained still – the fish, me, the lake. I realized that I was having a profoundly spiritual moment, that the trout were not only enjoying my company (and I theirs), but we were all communicating and connected through a life force, call it consciousness if you will. The date of that encounter was 9/11 2001 and I never went fishing for my own pleasure again. That to me now would not just be unconscionable, but frankly evil, though to others who lack such an experience, it would not be evil in the least. Yet I still eat fish. Perhaps that is hypocritical, but I don’t experience that act as evil. Your thoughts…

  10. I think evil is the selfish self. When we turn away from the Good/God/Creator/Tao etc we turn towards evil. Also, most people still seem to be unaware that there is actually a young (178 year old) world religion out there that doesn’t put clergy/priests/mullahs between the followers and the Unknowable Creative Force because it has NO clergy. That is the Bahá’í Faith. It also harmonizes science and religion and many Bahá’ís are also physicists, biologists etc.


    THEN, I did not find this information on the official A.R.E. website, so, I apologize if any of it is incorrect. However, it rings true for me. I feel it is just simply another something that we should remember, (what humankind brings to the table from previous lives).

    “Innate capacity for great good or great evil.”

    (((According to Edgar Cayce’s readings, this sort of thing is happening on a grand scale. Hundreds and thousands of people are being reincarnated now who carry urges from the once highly technical civilization of Atlantis. The problems they had then — selfishness, slavery and destruction — are being recreated like unfinished business to plague them again. These individuals are often extremists, with innate capacity for great good or great evil. How they meet their karma may well determine the future of our civilization.11

    Several life readings that Cayce gave for people indicated that in their previous lives in Atlantis, they were highly proficient in such areas as electrical engineering and explosives, technologies that had apparently been used by the Atlanteans to enslave and exploit others. The young men Cayce had performed the life readings for had already shown strong predilections towards these areas even at a young age, so Cayce’s warning to them was that if they did not use their accumulated knowledge from previous lives for good in this incarnation, they would have nothing but bad luck in their current and next lives, until they turn from their selfish ways and begin using their abilities for good.

    In fact, the readings from Atlantis generally showed that many of Cayce’s patients who had once lived and ruled in Atlantis were not merely selfish and exploitative, but totalitarian — even fascist — in their attitudes, considering less developed races as mere “things” to be used and discarded at their leisure. And the methods that they used to enslave and rule over other races were genuinely chilling, as we shall discover in our analysis of the three great “ages” of Atlantis covered by Cayce: The Foundation of Atlantis to 50,000 b.c., Atlantis from 50,000 to 10,000 b.c. and from 10,000 b.c. to the final destruction of Atlantis and its likely association with the Flood of Noah))).

    1. CAROLLEE,
      I still question the reality of my ‘memories’ of Atlantis. That being said, I can tell you that they dovetail with what you say. I was ‘discarded’ when I refused to go along with things that were destructive to a whole group of beings on another world.

      1. Some people discard the whole dream when one or two things don’t fit. I’m glad you haven’t done that. You are doing an important thing.

  12. I recently read (or heard) that if Hitler hadn’t been so focused on the Final Solution, he could have successfully developed an atomic bomb. That causes my brain to tie itself up in knots. The greater good being achieved by the greatest evil? For me there is no answer; just acceptance of all I don’t know as you both talked about at the beginning of the podcast.

  13. really enjoyed this and loved the energy between our whitley and this guy but-he lost all credibility when his basic roman historical knowledge was riddled with nonsense and mistakes-to label anthony as one of the conspirators/assassins-c’mon that’s day one stuff-read a book before you open your mouth for godsakes

  14. This was a very interesting interview & I enjoyed it immensely. It makes me want to go & do my own research to look at the comparisons of what the past has to show us about the present & maybe our future. Robert Monroe implied that it is the repetitive nature of whatever dimension we reside in that eventually compels us to move on. Thank you Whitley😊

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