First, we spend a few minutes with Bill Homann, the keeper of the Mitchell Hedges Crystal Skull. He will join us in the Unknowncountry subscriber video conference room on Saturday, May 22 at 11AM Pacific. We will meditate with the skull, then Bill will stay for discussion.

THEN a deep, deep dive into a truly wondrous and just plain weird Dreamland!! This astonishing discussion covers things like the mysterious bitter white liquid that close encounter witnesses, including Whitley, are made to drink, to the ongoing mystery of disappearing children and children rising into the sky that goes back hundreds of years.

Raising the most fundamental questions about the nature of the visitors, the nature of reality and–above all–who we are and what these mysterious entities want from us, this seminal discussion is one you will never forget.

You can meet Joshua Cutchin at his website,

Get his mind-bending book A Trojan Feast: the Food And Drink Offerings of Aliens, Faeries and Sasquatch through us. Click here!

His other mindbender, discussed in the subscriber part of the show, is Thieves in the Night: A Brief History of Supernatural Child Abductions. Don’t miss it. Click here!!

Dreamland Video podcast
To watch the FREE video version on YouTube, click here.

Subscribers, to watch the subscriber version of the video, first log in then click on Dreamland Subscriber-Only Video Podcast link.


  1. Another mind-bending show. All I could think after finishing is that something truly unique in all the world is taking place on Unknowncountry and Dreamland. Whitley, I’m not sure I’d pay $35,000 for the material in your possession but I’d likely pay three times that much to walk in the other world with you for just a few minutes. How I wonder.

  2. This was a great show. A link to the Bill Chalker episode please?

    The master of the key white substance discussion was absolute gold, I am amused.

  3. I am looking for the journal you said you had decided to publish during this interview (the one you sent to Jeff Krippel and changed your mind about the circumstances of its publishing). Keen to read it.

  4. It was interesting that you mentioned the tunnels in Bavaria. My mother was born and raised there and she talked about their existence. She said they went way back into the mountains, but said she didn’t know anyone who went in them. When I was visiting there I saw several entrances that appeared to be tunnels with heavy doors that were locked, no signs or anything.

    My first visitor experience was reading Communion when it was on the best seller list. I was up late at night, couldn’t put it down. I remember an incident not sure if it was a dream or not. The only thing I remember was meeting a little blue guy on my parents balcony, after that I don’t remember a thing. He was very goblin like.

    Great show.

  5. Whitley, though a lifelong “experiencer” I’ve rarely ever spoken of it. I did, however, extensively scribe the goings on in this other realm and with regard to a proffered drink, I found obvious parallels to your discussion…with the exception that it is always the other, my “secret sharer”, who’s offered the drink. Why might that be, I wonder? I’ve written but 3 instances below.

    1) “Less gracious in your turn, a look of restless discontent crossed your face. Mocking time and fate, or perhaps cheering them on, you raised your glass in a toast. ‘To the future! Or is it a drink to the past? All is forgotten, now.’”

    2) “’The off-white of near innocence, the sticky thickness of a primordial soup, I thought it might appeal to you.’ He paused to grin, exposing the dark declivity of his thoughts as he bent closer. ‘I can just imagine what your dubious mind imagined it to be, and what would I hope to create if it were? No, you’re not holding a scale model of your nightmare…this isn’t a Tantric ritual, nor am I into the spagyric arts.’
    [He] raised his shoulder to the side of his head to fend off the ear-tickling whisper and strummed his fingers against the gourd, refusing to drink the viscid liquid. ‘So selective,’ [the bearer] scoffed. ‘You should learn to eat what’s put in front of you.’”

    3) “At the sight of it, a squeamish look bordering on panic overcame [his] composed features. The offering must have brought some bitterness to mind, which he could still taste upon his puckered lips. He held up his palm to fend off the glass, and while the man didn’t press him to drink, his expression couldn’t be misconstrued, he would have preferred that [he] accept it. The gift wasn’t offered in homage, then. Likewise, it wasn’t mere etiquette or sentimental custom.
    …Once again, these refusals were but half the story. Distrust, lack of gratitude, grumbling thanklessness, there wasn’t the least trace of any of these things in [his] demeanor. He wasn’t throwing the gifts back in the face of the bearer. If the fact that he didn’t accept the drink or coat meant anything, it was that he was returning freely, albeit reluctantly, on his own terms.
    In response to each offering, [he] had made an extravagant gesture with his hand, and it could be said that his hand, being empty, gave the most in giving itself. In some odd way, he was giving the man his freedom, letting him know that he no longer needed tending. The juxtaposition of [his] empty hand and the props offered by the welcomer made visible this largesse of spirit. The difference, plain as that between Earth and sky, laid bare the fullness of the formless gift of self.”

  6. I look to plants as teachers; Mother Earth’s offering us a part of herself to discover more about ourselves, as we’re all part of this whole. I’ve been learning from cannabis for a few years now. She’s taught me how to open my mind past the physical, how to remember the threads to recall my experiences and write down the important parts. She’s helped with meditations and activating the meditative response of my noisy physical brain has become easier. It’s been a guide to worlds that I knew and was part of as a child but became harder to find as I grew up.

    It’s not an escape from reality unless it’s used mindlessly. Used mindfully, respectfully, plants are teachers. Shamans have done this for generations, finding a teacher plant and learning all that plant can teach them about the realities beyond our shared reality.

    Thank you both for an amazing talk, I was riveted!

  7. Do you think these substances could have anything to do with white powder gold?

    1. Author

      I think that it’s opium mixed with alcohol or water. This would be a bitter, white liquid that would put you into the kind of deep, dreamless sleep I experienced and has been reported so often.

  8. I just found this poem called ‘Milk of Nepenthe’ that I thought was interesting.

    The first line is ‘They take me to the sky without my permission’…

    Also, if you’re a Start Trek fan – spoiler alert – in the new series ‘Picard’ Episode 7, he visits Will Riker and Deanna Troi on a planet called Nepenthe (which is also the name of the episode), where he helps Soji make sense of her recently unlocked memories.

    I just thought both were interesting, firstly with the otherworldly connection to abduction lore in the poem…and secondly with the fictional world from Picard and the reference to unlocking memory, which of course I linked to Whitley’s experience with the MoTK.

    1. Author

      Interesting poem, haunting last lines: Who will I tell of this experience?

      Everyone will call me liar.

      I can’t bare these memories. I need the milk of Nepenthe

      I will drink the milk until my memories of this day fades away

      Putting me back to my simple mind, the way I wish to stay

      Something’s are just better not known

      A simple life, a lie life, mankind walking on this ground.

      1. A haunting poem indeed. Did you ever consider, Whitley, that while they may offer us the Milk of Nepenthe, WHAT THEY EAT, their food, is our words? For, in the beginning was the word… Perhaps they still walk our haunting passages?

        1. Bev,
          In the beginning was the Word… I learned from an interview that Anne did once, that ‘word’ is actually a mistranslation from the original ‘logos’, which has many meanings. A condensed version of one of those meanings is ‘creation through conscious intention’. Perfect… everything was thought into being. 

          So, if their food is our words, I wonder by extention, whether you could say their food is our ability to consciously create reality?

          Could it even be, that they do not truly exist without that transforming ability of ours?

          Just a thought.

          1. Author

            Anne also said that the universe came about because of a yearning, out of which gravity emerges. The logos, in other words, is desire.

          2. “So, if their food is our words, I wonder by extension, whether you could say their food is our ability to consciously create reality?” I’m inclined to believe that we are integral to their becoming, at least. I think of the trinity, “Her Eyes On Horus On the Horizon.” But I also have to believe – chiefly because I have to live with myself – that at some point they take up their own destiny.
            A final story, if I may…
            “So it was that when the Hidden One, Amon, arose upon the Primordial Mound, Ptah, he was not alone. Attendant upon him as he reenacted this transfiguration on the mount was the Rosy Dawn, anthropomorphized as his two-in-one consort Gods Hu and Sia. It occurs to me, though, that Hu is actually the ‘Word of Creation’ emitted with Amon’s masturbatory coming, upon Sia, his ‘Mind Perceiving’ you, […]. Forged in the heat of God’s mind, I can still see the fuel of his passion reflected in your blue eyes. It’s true, then, that where there is passion, there is divinity…
            “The tale of Amon and Hu-Sia is nearly identical to the creation story inscribed on the Shabaka stone. There’s the same sense of a single primogenitor with the twofold role of fertilization and generation made even clearer. The text reveals that Horus was the perfect Thought that arose in the smoldering heart of Ptah…a deep insinuation of homoerotic fantasy,” the libertine noted, “and Thoth was the Logos – that desired…de-sired Thought spoken into being.
            “In both instances, Ptah as the mind of the artist-primogenitor, having conceived of an Ideal Thought, then drew upon the Hidden One, his dark creative energy, to desire…de-sire his conception, its birth becoming a true lab’or of love.

      2. Indeed… it seems clear to me that the poem was borne from experience rather than imagination.

        1. Sherbert UFO, but what is real, what imaginal dreamland?

          “…a lie life, man walking on this ground.”

          1. Bev, well yes, that’s a very good point. I guess what I meant to say, was more along the lines of that the poem seems to contain a truth, a knowledge that would be hard to come by using a story teller’s imagination alone.

            But the more I think of it, who is to say that what one believes to be a story direct from the imagination, has not been seeded from a forgotten experience….
            But then again, who is to say that the partly forgotten experience does not contain an imaginal component too!

            I have wondered many times why two witnesses confronted with the same unknown, experience it, or remember it completely differently… But I just wonder whether both are just seeing their consciousness’ interpretation of the impossible, rather than what is actually there…if indeed it is possible to define what is actually there. 

            It reminds me of an experience I had the first time I tried to consciously go out of body… I had a sudden vision, so alive, almost more real than my normal waking reality… It was of a woman wearing a dress. The most stunningly beautiful thing I have ever seen, where the whole thing shone with its own light, like it was made of living light … But when I looked at her ‘face’ there was just a void… Which on reflection, was my consciousness not being able to interpret a true unknown…and despite the utter beauty of this spectacle, the inclusion of that true unknown scared me. My later interpretation was that she was a guardian of sorts, effectively stopping me in my tracks… or maybe an obstacle for my fearful self to overcome. Either way, how much of that was my imagination I will never know.

            I suspect imagination needs a seed on which to crystallise, but where that seed comes from is the source of my interest. Is it self-generated, is it from an external realm, or is it even meanful to contemplate in those terms when consciousness is involved?

            But yes, what is real…Good question.. Everything?… Nothing?… or somewhere in between? Maybe nothing is real until it is perceived by consciousness…which if true would suggest that the only thing that is real, is what is subjectively experienced…maybe that is, all that matters. 

  9. Fascinating podcast. I thought the semen analogy was a stretch and seemed pointless and I don’t agree with Mr. Cutchin’s assumption that the government is hiding knowledge of Grays or alien technology because they don’t want the public to know that there’s “more to heaven and Earth than is dreamt of in our philosophies”. After all, humans already believe in a religion, crystal healing, astrology and so on.

    The Thieves In The Night book looks scary as hell!

  10. Regarding the semen drinking thing, I did baulk at the idea myself but decided to put on my wellies and step into the VPN and incognito covered world of the Internet, to find the following surprising connection to ancient gnostic rites and the Eucharist…

    Discretion is advised… but I dare you to read it!

    … Also, it’s interesting that they use the word ‘communion’ in that article.

    1. Don’t worry, it’s not like it’s a link to the dark Web or anything (not that I would even know much about that, other than it’s existence)…but I just didn’t particularly want a record of me searching for… er…what I searched for!

      1. Great finds all, Sherbert UFO! You’re a genius researcher. With regard to your latest find, it reminded me something one of the others said – in jest, I think; he always speaks in mocking tones – relating to the First Word. It was part of a much lengthier exegesis on the trifold Egyptian religion. Hope it’s not wholly inappropriate here. Perhaps, I should apologize up front.

        “Amon ‘waz’ the dark mind with its imagination, intuition, knowledge and will, but he was also ‘ankhered’ to the furnace of the heart. It was there that his desire took shape, becoming a tongue of fire that licked the darkness of his mind. Through this fellatio, the sacred flame extended its reach until Amon finally released it as a visceral, full-throated ejaculation of awe . . . as the Word, ‘Ommm…y God!’ With this Word he made that beatific fire his centerpiece, poised at the heart of all things, divine and human.”

  11. You are very astute, Sherbert UFO, while I can only claim to be is an astute voyeur. Still, I can tell you what was once said with regard to this seed, as I understood it, and you can make of it what you will.

    “[They] must certainly have perceived the link between the dual meanings of the Latin ‘oculus’ as ‘eye’ and ‘bud’. Similarly, they knew ‘in’oc’ulate’ originally meant, ‘to graft a scion’ . . . ‘to implant the eye…bud into another’. They understood the vibratory language of ‘oc’, how a ‘light’ wave enters through the pupil of the eye and, once in the receptive mind, collapses into a seed-particle. Yes, and once these empiric men of the higher order figured out that light is a radiant energy, which speaks to the eye, they’d easily have deduced that the way to answer this light is through reflection. Furthermore, they’d understand that the mind is artfully crafted to contain the Sonlight. Just consider the light-sensitive pineal gland. And once implanted in the fertile I.magi.nation, the gestating seed…the Bud’dha will, if reflected upon, thrive and in due course sprout.”

    Or put more poetically,

    “Overcome with a careless ease, [he] felt his own Soul as KA sailing upon the undulating, gleaming waves of sound and AKh as light, and water and wind. ‘Do you ever wonder about the scansion of love, its flowing iambs . . . or what sails upon those orgiastic waves?’”

    …Lastly, I’d ask, Sherbert UFO, if she is waiting for you to imagine her face?

    1. Hmm, I’d never really thought about that… Maybe she is… Thanks, that definitely got me thinking.

      1. “… how a ‘light’ wave enters through the pupil of the eye and, once in the receptive mind, collapses into a seed-particle…”

        That description is almost identical to the way some Physicists describe the ability of consciousness to collapse the wave function of light, when it transitions from a superposition of all probable states, into a ‘measured’ thing.

        On a related note, I took a macro picture of a bee last weekend and on closer inspection, I noticed it had three extra, tiny, single-lens ‘eyes’ between its normal compound ones. I never realised that until I saw it for myself. I found out they are called ocelli (derived from the Latin word ocellus meaning little eye). Just an interesting fact related to your post.

  12. Lots of ‘food’ for thought in this interview and discussion…Since many of us have more time for reading and learning these days, I recommend that we do both, because there is still so, so much to more to learn about …everything! Since gnosticism has been discussed, and The Word (logos) in particular (lots of great input, Sherbet!), for those that want to dive deeply into this, ‘The Gnostic Scriptures’, a new translation by Bentley Layton, will knock your socks off! No kidding, but it is very dense, you will NOT breeze through it, and you will have to put it down, and often, just to process it all. No, you will not get concrete answers, but you will have more questions, and get your mind going in some different directions that can only empower you to seek even further…

    1. Thanks for the recommendation, Cosmic… I just bought the last one from Amazon UK.

  13. Another thought provoking podcast. Thank you. My status as a subscriber gets dropped midway and so I often don’t get to hear the best parts of these discussions. Did that happen with this one? I heard you would touch on Sasquatch and his food but never heard it.

  14. Very thought provoking episode. Thanks Whitley and Joshua and Mitchell. I just got around to listening to this today. Would have loved to join the meditation last Saturday. Will have to pay better attention to these opportunities.

  15. “High leukocytes, low lymphocytes” is known as a stress leukogram that we veterinarians are very familiar with as something that occurs in animals just because they come to visit us. This is due to release of adrenocorticosteroids (cortisol) during a stress response. I don’t know how often this occurs in humans.

  16. Josh mentioned an experiencer had a blood profile of “high leukocytes, low lymphocytes” at one point. Lymphocytes are a kind of leukocyte. Typically, when leukocytes are high, the increase is due to high numbers of neutrophils or lymphocytes or both. In this case, since lymphocytes are low, then neutrophils must be elevated. (Other kinds of leukocytes, ie monocytes, eosinophils, and basophils, are usually so few that they rarely elevate total leukocyte count when elevated). The pattern Josh describes is well known in veterinary medicine as a stress leukogram, and is caused by any kind of stress that leads to glucocorticoid hormone release by the adrenal glands. I don’t know the frequency of stress leukograms in humans, but i don’t doubt it’s as common as it is in animals. Of course, leukocytes are usually elevated in infectious processes, so we can’t know for sure that this is for sure a stress response, but seems most likely to me. So Whitley gets full credit for his diagnosis during the show.

  17. Thank you for this adventurous podcast. And thanks, all, for the discussion above about the meaning of “logos.” Good to be aware of.

    Whitley, regarding your exercise options: If the pandemic returns in waves this year and beyond, until a safe/effective vaccine is available, Helen’s Cycles in Santa Monica sells bikes. When I last rode the BART subway system in San Francisco, I saw one or two people get on the BART with their folding bikes, so perhaps folding bikes are still being sold somewhere. If it’s not safe in your area even to go for walks, you could get a folding treadmill. Anywhere in Los Angeles county, though, anyone on a bike has got to wear a helmet. It’s the law, plus it’s just not safe to bike here without head protection.

    If all the above exercise options are problematic, try experimenting with less daily protein in your diet, and that overly “antsy” feeling will start to fade. Few people are aware that the World Health Organization about 10 years ago released guidelines saying that as little as 9-10 grams of protein daily is sufficient for the body’s growth and maintenance. For example, if you have a wok, or even a large frying pan, you could do stir-fry meals more often. Here’s a reference on the recommended protein level:

  18. The description of the Changeling Child is also like that of a child or young adult with progeria. Some years back, a teenage boy with progeria played an alien in a movie.

  19. I found his reference to “Vanishing Twins” especially interesting due to my due to my research and personal experience. There is definitely a connection between twins and the ETs. Another piece of the puzzle. Caryl Dennis

  20. We feed our own AI Data, we literally feed our own synthetic neural nets vast amounts of data. If the visitors are as Seti, and paul davies suggest , post biological synthetic intelligence, then our experience sets, our lifes memorys would be the perfect “food” to ingest. “we recycle souls” could well be describing the uploading and integration/ingestion of our experience sets when we die.

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