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Dr. Penny Sartori started as an emergency room nurse and, after observing some very unusual events surrounding the deaths of some patients, became interested in the near death experience and the afterlife.

This week, she shares her findings with us, taking us deep into the world of the brain and consciousness. Is consciousness dependent on the brain to exist, or is the brain a transceiver? Listen as Whitley explores this and so many other questions with Penny.

AND, in the second half of the show, Anne Strieber appears yet again, this time with another of those great questions—which Penny fields with wisdom and aplomb.

A beautiful edition of Whitley and Anne Strieber’s Dreamland.

Dr. Penny Satori’s website is, and do not miss the Wisdom of Near Death Experiences!

Dreamland Video podcast
To watch the FREE video version on YouTube, click here.

Subscribers, to watch the subscriber version of the video, first log in then click on Dreamland Subscriber-Only Video Podcast link.


  1. Thank you for this edition of
    Thank you for this edition of Dreamland. I have a question which I would like to put out there which I can perhaps partially answer myself, but would be interested to know what others might come up with. People often say to me that they cannot believe we create our own reality because people who suffer abuse from their parents would never choose that. To them this means that the whole concept of higher consciousness and being responsible for our own souls, or even that souls exist is thrown into question to the extent that they would rather just not believe in anything beyond the five senses. This is akin to the age old question of ‘If God exists, why is there suffering?’ My own partner who I love dearly experienced a terrible childhood with abuse and betrayal of trust on every level, physical, sexual, emotional, lies and abandonment. The result being that she lives a life being defensive and paranoid unable to trust, seeing enemies everywhere. She is loyal and generous and thoughtful towards those she deems worthy, but if they cross her, the feelings are cut off immediately and they become dead to her. It strikes me that there are many people in the world who live this way due to childhood damage and they don’t all go on to become killers and criminals but simply struggle with their lives and relationships, causing pain because they themselves are in pain. The question is: why would their soul have chosen that? It is so hard for them to come to a place of trust and peace or to have the courage to delve into themselves honestly and it could even be dangerous in the sense that they COULD become hopelessly lost or at least lost for a very long time, maybe lifetimes. I am aware that I am assuming certain things are true with this question and asking as though I know that we do choose and we do have souls. I don’t! But IF we do, (as makes sense to me intuitively) – why would we do this to ourselves? My own partial answer is that the soul’s attraction is on an energetic level and that somehow we attract to our parents energetically and not logically and that our higher self, or soul is not as bothered as we might be because it knows we are on a journey according to higher laws which make total sense on that level. The counter-argument, of course is that somehow I am saying that the person created karma in a past life which deserves a bad life to work through, therefore the innocent child who is being abused is somehow deserving, which of course is a disgusting thing to say and not something that I can stand by at all. Can anyone answer this question with more insight and accuracy? I feel we do create and draw to us the lessons that are needed, but this is a tricky one to explain! I am sort of intuitively okay with my own answer but not intellectual enough or maybe informed enough to explain it to others who are already doubting and waiting to trip me up!
    Anyway, I really enjoyed the show as I always do. Thank you so much for your life’s work, Whitley, (I want to say Whitley-and-Anne!), it means the world to me as part of my information gathering and has done for very many years now (since 1988!).

  2. Hi Sweetgrass922.

    Hi Sweetgrass922.

    Often pondered the very same questions, but here’s what i can offer. Part of it is a journey that we are on, that was chosen by us before birth. The other part is other peoples choices/actions that come into play, to affect us. I think abuse at the moment is at epic levels. Dealing with it and overcoming the obstacles is part of the lesson. Our life that we lead at the moment is conditioned through environment and genetics and a few more psychological factors. Plus when you die, a kind of shower happens that washes the person you were to reveal your true self. {Something i believe i witnessed once}

    My self an experiencer/abductee if you will. Here’s a little episode from my life that gives some insight, into the complexities of contact and experiance… we are all experiencers by the way. I kissed my teacher when i was five to the laughter and amusement of the other kids … just on the cheek it was innocent. I went to our holiday house by the beach that weekend and came back to school that Monday a slightly different kid. I had the strong impression a witch so extremely jealous she forced me to kiss her on the lips.

    I was so profoundly effected by this that i couldn’t kiss a girl until 26/27 years of age. Not until Communion came out, did i even consider it wasn’t just shyness that was holding me back. I tried a number of times, i was shocked at how difficult i found this. The pain of not being able to have a girl friend was hard enough plus my male mates laughing at me telling me i was closet gay… between 17-25 was very frustrating. It wasn’t until i was cornered by a girl in a night club wanting me to kiss her. She challenged me and i tried, but couldn’t, she told me i “was nothing but damaged goods”. I looked at her in good humour and agreed, knowing the visitors had done a number on me…and couldn’t exactly tell her that either ! I knew that the female that was pictured on the cover of communion was responsible for this… {I have no idea if its Whitley’s female or not} I began a quest for answers.

    Years later i had hypnosis done to find that “SHE” did it for a very interesting reason. It was to protect me from the child sex abusers lurking around at my school. ‘SHE’ said this “kiss me” {at this point a few more things we’re said that are totally nuts} I refused a few times then with her mind gained control of my body and forced me. After it was over i fell back into the arms of a male and ‘she’ said … “They.. will never touch you you are mine”. The word “They’ when she said it was, as if she was referring to the most filthy and vile people imaginable. How does this relate to your questions ?

    It relates to your question in the idea that it wasn’t going to be my karma at human hands some form of horrible abuse. I ask myself what if they hadn’t of done this …eventually i probably would have checked out of life. Why do other abductees or experiencers go through this horror at human hands… thats their journey… other than that i don’t know.

    1. Thank you for replying,
      Thank you for replying, Si.
      What you said about abuse being at epidemic levels and it being part of the lesson to overcome the obstacles I think is very profound. Part of my lesson, it seems is to learn to validate myself and accept that I am enough and that being sensitive is a gift and not a curse and very much needed in this world. I have been through all sorts of horrible experiences because I was looking for others to validate me before I would see my own worth. Whatever level of abuse we experience I guess there comes a time in our lives when we have to decide how to deal with it and turn it into something we can use for our own growth rather than staying a victim. Understanding how we may perpetuate the abuse in adulthood by still believing we are as crap as the original abuser made us feel is one way to gain empowerment. it seems that it is a major part of our culture and society to not let us thrive (one reason being so that we can be sold stuff to fill the imagined short-comings?)
      I really appreciate you sharing a part of your personal story. It was a nice response. Thank you.

  3. Jose–there is no possibility
    Jose–there is no possibility of progress without “Potential”, in other words, there must be work to accomplish, a gap to be crossed, in order for us to progress and evolve spiritually. That is why we assume physical form (incarnate) in the first place. These horrible things that happen to us provide an opportunity to achieve forgiveness and unconditional love, which are necessary to proceed to the next level. The greater the hurt, the more we accomplish by overcoming it.

    1. Thank you for replying,
      Thank you for replying, Eddie. I can see what you are saying and I suppose the danger is that people will feel that the way to heaven is through suffering, but that is somehow approaching it from the wrong angle. It is more about turning inevitable suffering into the joy of transformation, I guess.

  4. I have read about Penny in
    I have read about Penny in Anthony Peak’s book “immortal Mind”. Trully remarkable! I admire her strength and courage to search for the truth and bring it to us. I have experienced contact from “dead” relatives. I know that there is no such thing as death; we simpliy fall out of time! As Whitley says, lets all mediatate and transcend our current understanding of reality.
    Thank you!

  5. Getting back to the
    Getting back to the interview, the heart must be one of the connection points of the soul. Dr’s often tell post heart attack patients that they will often find themselves crying. I’ve often thought that once the heart has been exposed to the world this happens….

  6. A bit late to the party, just
    A bit late to the party, just catching up on this Dreamland Episode…haven’t listened yet, I couldn’t get past these posts. Jose – your partner sounds a lot like me, except my defensiveness is probably not as extreme, having met sufficient numbers of extraordinarily good people to have me sustain my faith in human nature (she says, the dug-in hermit!)…

    This is my very first posting here, this subject is tangled up in the ganglia of this incarnation, right inside my nerves, so here I am, breaking cover! I also want to belatedly express my profound appreciation and gratitude to Whitley and Anne, to both of you for your life and work, to everybody working with you, for this high-calibre and heart-felt community …

    Here’s my take on this vexed issue of “karma” and the Soul/Over-Soul choosing abuse and trauma as a learning experience. First, I don’t buy the dualistic “accountant” interpretation of karma – that it is necessarily debits and credits, guilt and innocence, etc While the law of cause and effect seems to hold dominion on this concrete level of reality, that is only one level. There are many more levels, and a whole lot more going on than most of us can fathom. For me, “karma” constitutes “content and quality of consciousness” – the holographic projection of which creates our lived experience. Crudely put, whatever “content” we are unconscious of will bite us in the butt! (Any unconscious story patterns/cycles, forgotten movie contracts with other Dreamers, etc, will play out as negative experiences, until we learn to become lucid inside the Dream of existence. (Apologies if this is a bit compressed, I’m a tad short on time)

    Second point, which leads on from this one, is that the apparently insulting and confronting aspect of your Soul or Over-Soul (I prefer “Greater Nature”) choosing life experiences such as rape, torture, abuse, trauma… “People often say to me that they cannot believe we create our own reality because people who suffer abuse from their parents would never choose that.” Here lies the confusion – the human incarnated personality doesn’t choose this, would never choose this, but the Soul/Over-Soul, the Greater Nature Being, which is not human, and beyond human, does choose this. My direct experience tells me that this Greater Nature is our essence, that we are not a “who” but a “what”, and the current human incarnation personality, itself a precious body-mind miracle downloading in every moment, is only a fraction of what we are. In my more lucid moments I am staggered and humbled by the presence of unspeakable power and love behind it all. May all who walk here find that Presence in themselves.

    1. Thank you Wolf,
      I appreciate

      Thank you Wolf,
      I appreciate all that you said above and can only agree.

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