Almost 5 years ago, famed paranormal researcher Graham Phillips and historian and psychic Jodi Russell set out to penetrate the mystery of the lost Order of Meonia and its great treasure, the Heart of the Rose. There followed one of the great paranormal adventures ever discussed on this show. It involves the uncovering of a hidden code that led to a powerful artifact, a series of fantastic synchronicities, and bizarre changes in reality itself that stagger the imagination–but not Whitley’s because he’s experienced them, too!

It leads to a new understanding of the true meaning of the search for the Holy Grail, and the incredible power of the hidden energies that lie at the end of an ancient path the predates the Grail stories of the middle ages.

And, woven into all this, is an absolutely remarkable exploration of the real Alice in Wonderland, who, as Lewis Carroll always maintained, was not Alice Liddell.

Listen and Graham and Jodie describe first hand what it means to slip between parallel universes in a very real and tangible way, and learn how that relates to lost human powers that we urgently need to regain.

This is a Dreamland like no other. An absolute MUST! To get Strange Fate click right here!

Graham and Jodie will join us in the subscriber video conference room on Saturday, 28 at 11AM Pacific. DO NOT MISS this one!

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  1. This is so good I haven’t even finished listening but just have to comment! Maybe the changes accompanied by the weather fronts are something to do with the electromagnetic fields; seem to be a frequent component in such occurrences anyway. Such a great show, thank you!!!

  2. Hi Whitley, I am an old follower of yours. (I’ll be 73 on the 29th of July. I have very unusual things happen in my life. My memory of these things goes back to my infancy. At age 5 or 6 I had a visitor show up at the foot of my bed and touch my foot as he said goodbye. I started screaming. My parents said I had a nightmare, he only one I’ve ever had. In 1956 we didn’t know what the visitors might look like. But I knew. Long arms and longer fingers, with one less finger than us. So many unusual things.. In the early 90’s I moved and changed cities. I needed a new bank and was sent my ‘new tech’ ATM card and a week later I got my 4 digit pin in the mail. A week after that I got my new phone card with a 4 digit pin in the mail. It was the exact same pin as the new bank card. I have many instances og things happening that are extremely unlikely happen like they are normal. My most recent one is a doozy. I had an unfortunate experience with a company that did my taxes around 2009-20011. I was audited and penalized thousands of dollars. I worked with the IRS to set up a payment schedule paying a small amount every month. I few weeks ago I got a letter from the IRS that said I had overpaid for 2009 and they would return any overpayments or credit them to any other debts I owed. I called them just yesterday to find out what year I am to designate I am paying on now> Three different people at IRS told me that they cant find anything on my record that says I owe any money! It’s all disappeared. There’s a lot between that night as a child seeing what I thought was the devil and the IRS losing my history. I met you and Annie around 2012? at a book signing in Glendale, same weekend as comiccon. I asked you to get JP Skipper to do a dreamland. I had just been released from the hospital for a cancer surgery. I am patient 20 in the medical books as the 20th person ever to be diagnosed with this from of Sarcoma. Lots and lots of weird stuff in this life. Thanks for letting me vent.

  3. An important note, the link to results in a security risk, which if pushed through displays “It works!!!!!” but nothing else. Fantastic for while you’re listening to this show, but I really would like to buy the book through this site lol.

    I’ve been listening to these shows for almost 30 years now, and I am incredibly grateful that they exist. Thank you Whitley, Anne and all the wonderful people who put these together. You have done a beautiful and amazing thing.

  4. Author

    We are not seeing any security issue on from this end. You should run an antivirus program such as Bitdefender on your computer, and be sure to use a firewall.

    1. Just to be sure, you’re using the link in the article itself? The security risk is innocuous I’m sure, but it was unusual. It looks more to be a fun Easter egg as a result of some debugging. It’s only the link here in this page. If you travel to directly through the address bar there are no issues whatsoever.

      If these steps are what you’ve already done, then I will run my security software as you recommend and chalk the experience up to the wonderful strangeness surrounding this interview and text. Thank you Whitley.

      1. Author

        I am using the link in the article. Our site is behind a very powerful firewall, so it’s doubtful that the exploit is on the site. But I will have a special run done just to be sure.

        1. It’s because the site doesn’t have a valid security certificate, so it will not connect using the secure protocol https. Connecting with just http should be fine providing you are not entering in bank details. You can confirm by looking before the address in the address bar at the top of the browser. If it is secure, then you will see a padlock; If not, probably an exclamation mark in a triangle. But just to be sure, connecting to an insecure website with a VPN would be wise.

        2. The link to is fine though using Chrome to connect will throw up a stumbling block if you have security settings to https only as it is an HTTP site. I connected with Firefox Focus just fine but simply could not get Chrome to connect to it so the link is okay and perfectly safe it’s just Chrome’s zealous SSL certificate requirements. I’d recommend always having two or three different browsers on hand for such things because most problems are harmless enough. I will say that one should always use a VPN anyway. I’m a huge fan of several vpns and even use them for gaming online so that demonstrates that latency isn’t an issue anymore like it used to be.

  5. Whitley, it is fascinating to hear about the appearance of mists in Graham’s and Jodi’s research. Long ago, you interviewed Caitlin and John Matthews about their book, The Lost Book of the Grail, which is an examination of a 13th century text called The Elucidation of the Grail. On page 118 of The Lost Book of the Grail is mentioned, and I quote, “the fe’ fiadha, or faery mist, which creates a cordon between our world and that of the faery realms. preserving faeries from prying eyes.” If I remember correctly, mists were also encountered in the Bermuda Triangle. Mists seem to indicate a borderline or point of transition.

  6. Author

    Yes, of course. I wish I’d brought that up in the show. It was mists and storms that marked their transitions.

    1. Whitley, in The Lost Book of the Grail (Caitlin and John Matthews) , I find a reference that relates to such events as the appearance and disappearance of the Mad Hatters Tea Emporium and the appearance of Mary Heath’s tomb out of nowhere. On page 110 it states, “The Court, held at Carlion, or the other seats where Arthur holds sway, are part of the everyday world, the place where governments and ruling happens. But the Grail Castle is not an ordinary location, resembling rather an earthly paradise: a place that cannot be easily found and, no matter how many times the questing knights discover it, they lose it again immediately by their failure to pose the right question. Just as in the traditions of Faery where human visitors wake up to find themselves back in the human realm, sometimes a hundred years or more astray form their own time, so the questing knights find themselves on the bare hillside with the otherworldly castle vanished away.” Jodi Russell and Graham Phillips, Caitlin and John Matthews like “questing knights” have independently uncovered a couple of pieces to a large puzzle. I never would have had the opportunity to see this without your having brought these guests onto Dreamland. You hit a home run. Thank you Whitley!

    2. This next comment caused me quite some consternation as I no longer support experimentation like this but it’s an honest account of something that happened over thirty years ago and this week’s show’s references to ‘humming’ and ‘portals’ instantly reminded me of what I am about to relate.

      Many years ago, while in my 20’s I took LSD a few times. It was kind of interesting but unpredictable. I lived in a quiet little village in England near the Welsh border.

      Well, one afternoon I was lying quietly on my bed, just letting my mind open up (I had Sgt Pepper album track ‘Within You Without You’ playing in background on my new-fangled CD player) and I suddenly became aware of a small ‘pod of beings’ drift in through the window.

      I couldn’t see them but I knew they had come into my room. They reminded me of Tibetan Monks somehow. If asked, I’d say they were invisible astral jellyfish that were as conscious, if not more conscious as I was/am. They acted as a group of, I think, three.

      In an instant, I ‘overheard their thoughts’ and they were communicating with one another; ‘This is his place’. Lying on the bed I suddenly realised that my throat was buzzing, actually buzzing. In a split second the fear started and my awareness of these beings ended. I became, to say the least, quite terrified.

      Over the next few hours I became extremely agitated and was convinced that I had swallowed a bee. I could feel my throat vibrating when I touched it with my fingers but don’t recall if anyone else could when I asked them to check.

      What unfolded over the next week or two was a constant humming/buzzing/droning sound all around me and especially in my bedroom. I even called a local beekeeper to see if he could deal with this and while he could hear the humming sound, he could never find any bees.

      At best I only ever saw maybe a couple of bees fly in through my bedroom windows in the following days and so in time it seemed likely that this was something else, albeit very confusing and frightening, though I managed to maintain my composure.

      I wrote to Jenny Randles about this, albeit in an abridged account due to the illegality of my youthful experimentation, and she wrote me a lovely letter back that discussed ‘the Hummadruzz’ that some people can hear in some parts of the World at times.

      I’m not sure that this was the same phenomenon as I now understand the throat chakra starts doing things when it is activated. Over the next thirty years it is safe to say that life has been a mix of the mundane and curiously spectral. Protection is always something that I’ve felt around me though and it pains me to think back how primitive and naiive my mind was in those days.

      What wonders would have unfolded if I had not succumbed to fear and let my mind/body consciousness lead me away from what seems to have been a higher realm of conscious order above us that also moves among us?

      I really doubted that I should post this as I have little patience for people who promote psychedelics. What happened and what caused it all may or may not be relevant but I certainly have no intention of encouraging others to emulate such activity.

      In wrapping this up there is one final strand of this tapestry of consciousness to weave and it is this. I vaguely recall listening to the fade out of A Day in the Life some time before the event that I just related and in time I read that McCartney’s original intention was to have the piano fade out overlaid with everyone in the studio humming but they dropped the humming in the final edit.

      I don’t think they did, I reckon it’s still there somehow though very faint, I heard it once (at least I think it was on the song). That fade out could easily be a portal if I’m right. That’s all I have to say about that.


  7. Last month I had a visit from a friend who stayed with my cousin for a week and then with me for two. She and my cousin each bought a copy of the 1968 Elvis comeback special. They played it at my cousins and it worked fine. My friend brought her copy to my house, and when we went to play it, she got the still packaged DVD to open and thought she was going to need to use a knife to open it, but opened it with her fingernail. She put the opened case on the coffee table next to me where I saw the open case and the disc. Then I went upstairs and when I came down and there was no DVD no case no disc . I asked what happened to the DVD and she said it’s there but it wasn’t. So I looked up on the counter where it had been, and there was the DVD still packaged sitting upright. She grabbed the DVD but could not open with with her finger nail this time and had to use a knife. Then we tried to play it. We tried on four different devices and it wouldn’t play. When she went home she tried it on her player and it still wouldn’t play. She’s not sending it back because she believes it is a disk from another universe as do I.

    1. Ha! Elvis comeback special! Elvis is the KING! Perhaps the KING is returning? You should google MoJo Nixon and consider the meaning of his song Elvis is Everywhere. That said, this song has one error. It states that Michael J Fox has no Elvis in him but I tell you that is incorrect!

      1. I remember watching this on Dr. Demento. And maybe Elvis is still alive in an alternate universe, and he came through and switched the discs.

  8. Oooo, boy…Too much that I relate to…In addition, ya’ll had pretty much the same conversation about the feminine/masculine as I had with my partner just this morning, down to some of the same wording!
    Think I’ll take a break now…Lordy!

  9. Tanya Huff has written novels about the Keepers, who are a slightly different species of humans from us and have the job of keeping reality from spinning out of control. In her telling, the edges of the world are constantly getting blurred and fuzzy, and there are constant incursions from elves or sprites or I forget what all she calls them, who mess things up. Consensus reality is fragile and requires continual maintenance.

    I have the feeling that all this is essentially true and that whoever is supposed to be doing this work is not doing it!

    1. They’re doing their work but are being stopped. Graham going soft focus was one way to try and stop him, switching timelines is another. They can even enter your ‘dreams’ and mess with the work there. (Yes, work can be done during dream time.) Timeslips, a slap on the back, whatever it takes.

  10. I had an experience when I was at college, that I think now might have been some kind of alternate Universe slip… I had been working all night at the desk in my bedroom on a project that had to be done the next day and needed a protractor for something or other, just to finish it…I had seen it on the table not long ago but it had just vanished. I even went to the point of flicking through an A4 file of papers I had on the table, just in case it got stuck in there but it was nowhere to be found. I searched everywhere…Gone. I forgot about it, went to bed, woke up the next morning, went down for breakfast but when I walked back into my room, a few minutes later, the protractor was there on the table, lined up perfectly next to a ruler, pencil, and the A4 binder. It had certainly not been there when I left the room. It was just not possible that I could have missed it, with it being so obviously placed. At the time, I was thinking along the lines of a ghost, as others in the house had reported some odd occurances. I still can’t figure it out to this day. Just one of those unfathomables that keeps you on your toes!

  11. I know this is off topic…but some were commenting about seeing 11:11 on clocks a while back. I just thought I would mention, that I keep seeing occurances of ‘319’ and have done so for a long time. I have no idea what it’s supposed to mean, if anything.

      1. Thanks very much KOLYABAHAI, that’s really interesting. I will see what more I can find out.

  12. Absolutely superb show. It had me on the edge of my seat the whole way through.

    It reminded me of his excellent book the Templars and the Ark of the Covenant from 2004. I just loved the feeling of conscious quest and come coming into contact with the Divine higher order of consciousness above us that is prepared to interact with us if we give the process a chance.

    I came back from Glastonbury the day before listening to this, having spent a couple of days there hiking around and so this show was absolutely perfect on my return.

    Interestingly my visit wasn’t without friction and of the three days I was there there was some level of vexation every day, which was unusual for Glastonbury, as it’s such a magical place. However I reasoned that Glastonbury was teaching me a lesson in balance and not constantly choosing to view the world through rose tinted lenses.

    I shall be ordering this book as soon as possible.


  13. Fascinating story – quite an adventure.

    I contemplate the impact of parallel dimensions as compared to changes in our continuum that would result from a change someone creates by altering the past (of which I have doubt). Either one would change the likelihood of specific futures for humanity. Of course shamans and other ancient peoples have built many worlds in the astral realms, which are a finer energy than this quantum reality which we are incarnated withing.

    I love deep contemplation and this show presents much opportunity for my mind.

  14. Great appreciation to all three of you for such a delightfully fascinating program!!

  15. i enjoyed the show, seems like time slips. There’s a few videos on youtube about it.

    whitley, this is a bit off-topic, but do you think humanity needs its genetics changed to be more intelligent and less aggressive. I wonder if any beings have ever told you about this or you have thoughts on it? It does seem odd that our children and adults simulate murder for fun in video games.

  16. A marvelous, delightful interview ~ Ah the richness of Whitley’s discussions with the best guests ~ and across time with Anne’s contributions ~ what an adventure I have been blessed to listen into for so many years ~ love & thanks

  17. How do I access the longer version for subscribers? Sorry I’m brand new

    1. Hi Emily, Once you’re logged into this site with your username and password, then all the links on the Dreamland podcast page will be for Subscribers. There are sometimes a few initial issues where the wrong links are present but they normally get sorted pretty quickly. If you’re still having problems and can’t figure it out, you can always send an email to

    2. Author

      Once you log in, you will automatically hear/see the longer version. If you’re still getting ads or it cuts off before the full show ends, email Nikki Thomas will help you.

  18. I enjoyed this show immensely!! I have had many many instances of “disappearing and then appearing” articles and I blame “Gremlins” for it for lack of more knowledge of what is really happening.
    The latest example of this mysterious happening was a few months ago when I was looking for a can of pork and beans in my pantry. I reached into the back and pulled out a can which was expired so I was going to dispose of it later. Where I live, we need to clean contents of can for garbage and wash out can for re-cycling. I set it on my kitchen counter to the left of my sink for later and found another can of pork and beans which was good and I had lunch. Later that day I went to do the chore of disposal and the outdated can of pork and beans was gone. I searched everywhere imaginable for it in my small kitchen and even other rooms in the apartment. It was nowhere to be found. I don’t know how others feel when/if this happens to them, but it makes me feel “strange” or uncertain about my grip on reality etc. I decided to “let it go”, forget about the incident and chalk it up to another one of the inexplicable mysteries of life! A few days later it appeared again to the left of my sink exactly where I had placed in the beginning. Although a senior and you may be skeptical, but I assure you these things have happened to me all my life! Like most of you, I’d love to have the answers to these mysteries, which we know are true but can’t prove. Now to be perfectly honest not every happening of disappearing items are because of “gremlins”. I’m only human and do mislay some things occasionally and find them…..but what I am describing here is totally different. All of you who experience this know what I’m saying. This is different and we know it!!

    1. This disappearing and reappearing of objects has happened to me all of my life. Not everything reappears though.

  19. Before listening to this episode, I noticed a broken link to what appeared to be another episode between this one and “How to Escape the Matrix” that was titled “The Nazca Mummies are Real and not Human.” If I had known the contents of this episode, I would have paid closer attention to it. I’m sure this was some completely normal error, but it’s hard to resist mentioning, not least of all because I’m dying to hear more about the Nazca Mummies.

    1. Author

      We hope to run this show soon. Right now, the facts are still unclear.

  20. As to Lady Morgana having wings, according to some, like Dolly (Preston Dennet’s friend), there is one type of E.T. that have wings. Perhaps Morgana was not born on earth?

  21. This episode packs a lot to digest. Not unlike many other Dreamland episodes but the Arthurian connections were new to me and have a special personal significance. On a seemingly unrelated matter it turns out that the planning for the JFK assassination seems to have been designated as the Lancelot Project. Was this more than just a cynical allusion to the New Frontier and Camelot? I am not sure how this fits in with any of Graham’s research but given the strange synchronicities that surround that subject I wonder whether the entire Camelot mystique surrounding the Kennedy Presidency doesn’t have a deeper resonance in reality than I had thought. Certainly that event has had a profound and deep impact that goes well beyond a single President or simple change in leadership.

  22. I have a good example of realm shift. About a year ago I was getting gas when I looked across the street to see that the normally dingy beige building had been painted a lovely blue and the unkempt grounds were now green and quite nice. A extra floor had even been added on to one side. I was pleased to see someone had finally cleaned the place up. Next time I got gas, the dingy unkempt building was back. It is still to this day a mess. It is my understanding the visitors are the creators of “worlds”. And sometimes these worlds cross.

  23. Wonderful, “MOST EXCELLENT.” Thank you, Whitley, Graham Phillips and Jodi Russell. Whitley, I am thinking it would be awesome if you and Graham Phillips could travel together to some of the places described in this interview. October, for me, has always been a powerful time of the year and that is when you plan to be in the UK.

  24. Author

    What a good idea! I will certainly try to make that happen

  25. I haven’t finished listening the first time, but this is a really fascinating and fun interview, and I’ll be listening to it again. Talk about “glitches in the matrix!” It’s obvious that, although both of them are experienced with working with mysterious matters, they’re still kind of amazed at all the weird things that happened to them.

  26. The book was excellent and I recommend it to those who found the interview fascinating.

    I will note that the red haired lady who showed up in the library and then disappeared and the other characters who also showed up and said something, then were gone when Graham and Jodi tried to follow them, seem exactly like stories of the Greys.

    Perhaps some type of presence is responsible for being time guardians or time police to avoid the collapsing of reality (So many other fun questions arise)?

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