When it comes to understanding experiencers, what can science bring to the table? Dr. Tyler Kokjohn joins guest host Jeremy Vaeni to talk about their ground-breaking 2014 survey of experiencers, Project Core, as well as the state of disclosure today and where to look next. 
To read the survey for yourself, please visit: https://www.ourundoing.com/project-core
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  1. Totaling boring and subjective.sorry but a waste of a podcast and time.

    1. Vaeni is here to challenge us. He reminds us not to get stuck in the conventions of thought that arise in this community. I believe he knows what he’s doing, and he has a unique way of being helpful, lol. After all, if you want to keep improving your thinking, it has to be challenged.

      He also likes to challenge his guests. He likes to have guests that don’t necessarily agree with ideas in this community, and in that way he reinforces some of our ideas. (By highlighting some of the problems with ideas of people who don’t agree with us.)

      He’s doing great work. He’s reminding us how important it is to be patient. And ultimately teaching us lessons about ego. In my opinion.

  2. A interesting & absorbing interview and it helped remind me that sometimes we need to listen a little harder in life sometimes to help shake off the entropy of forgetfulness.

    Over here in the UK the BBC released a podcast called ‘UNCANNY’ with Danny Robbins (available on Spotify) over the past year or so and while listening to it I am always amazed at how compelling people’s accounts of hauntings are when they are given a decent chance to express themselves.

    Listening to this interview with Tyler brought home how important it is to give ourselves a chance to make ‘the return’ by listening to others rather than our own internal dialogue.

    Bravo, great interview.

    1. “how important it is to give ourselves a chance to make ‘the return’ by listening to others rather than our own internal dialogue.”
      Amen to that!

      Looking forward to listening to the interview later today.

      1. Peace, Morelight.

        All we really have to do it try a little teeny bit more, an itty bit extra, listen an itty bitty bit more to get positive feedback. Doing that doesn’t have to be a big deal, no hours long mantras, no cult membership, no whipping, no self denial or starvation.

        MORE is just an arm’s length away but certainly not out of reach.

        Bless your heart & bless all hearts.


    2. By the way, if you want to hear another postcast where the host sits back and let’s the guests just tell their story, then you might like listening to the ‘Sasquatch Chronicles’. There is a website, with the same name (https://sasquatchchronicles.com/) and they’re also on YouTube (https://youtube.com/@SasquatchChronicles), with just over a thousand episodes of whitness testimony, sometimes more than one guest per show.

  3. Shameful disparaging of David Grusch and of the other people trying to push for some form or another of “disclosure”. Jeremy Vaeni’s argument is: “I don’t find it credible”. Sigh.
    Then he offers the alternative theory that this is all an elaborate plot to increase defense funding. This does not stand up to scrutiny, when you know for instance that some of the congresspeople pushing back the hardest *against* disclosure are those with the closest ties to the military-industrial complex. To learn more about the subject, go to https://www.weaponizedpodcast.com/ (where you might even learn the identity of the person running the NASA UAP study). Fortunately, Whitley will be back next week.

    1. Good theatre really can be both inspiring and equally heart wrenching. Watching Mr Grusch say a whole lot about nothing was neither a surprise nor a disappointment.

      Seems to me that the Watchers, Visitors, Astral Lights, Ascended Family, call them what you will, couldn’t be less interested in these Gvmt thieves.

      It might be better not concerning oneself with such Congressional Committee nonsense/claptrap as it rarely leads anywhere. That said, I also say go with what floats your boat and inspires you.

      I’d rather watch Elephants ride a roller-coaster than some committee talk about nothing.

      As an aside, I’m surprised the etymology of Herr Grusch’s name hasn’t come up. In German it represents a greeting.

      Is this ‘enquiry’ actually an ‘Hello!’ Is the US Gvmt asking for help? Considering the trap that Israel has been drawn into by a Brics member/proxy, I’d suggest that smoke signals may very well be underway?


    2. Author

      My argument, in part, is that whether Grusch is an honest actor or not, he was cleared by the DOD to say everything he said, therefore none of it is true.

      Do YOU believe the DoD would let him speak all the tippety top secrets into a camera?

      And his argument for this is that if they had denied him the ability to say it he could have brought that denial to the public, I guess, for us to decide why. Sorry, that’s weak sauce. If true, then everyone would be doing that with everything.

      But personally, I don’t believe these phenomena have anything to do with physical objects getting shot down or breaking down or magically appearing as an “offering” to governments to see what they would do with them. You might do that once, not over and over again. It’s pretty clear what governments/militaries will do with them. Not a lot of alien study needed there.

      So, in summary, I believe, based on my own experiences and my read on other peoples’ experiences, that this narrative is fiction. And since the DoD is allowing Grusch to tell what he’s been told, they don’t believe it either and perhaps would like us to believe that they do.

      As far as my take that this is about military funding, I gave evidence to that in my book, Aliens: The First and Final Disclosure. We see Navy footage of a UFO popping in and out of the ocean. Suddenly, we tap Valkerie to create drones that do this and a submersible drone “mothership.” They’re either showing us in UFO footage what they have or they’re using it to say, “See! We need to keep up! We need to invent this, too!” (That’s my take, anyway. I don’t believe in coincidences here.)

      Lastly, unless anything has changed, the politicians tried to get Grusch into a SCIF but he refused to pay for the flight and accommodation to do that. Perhaps they’ve worked that out, I don’t know. I just know how earth-shatteringly important this must be to him to hold out for plane fare and a hotel. And for them to not offer it in the first place.

      I won’t be going back and forth on this. That’s my position. I’m open to being wrong. I’m not open to taking the media grifters who support him’s word for it.

  4. My word, where to even start with all this.

    Firstly, if we get some headway towards answering questions about consciousness, like…What it is? How it can be manipulated? To what extent can consciousness manifest into and ultimately manipulate reality? What are the measuable differences between objective and subjective reality? Can consciouness be measured, and if so, what out there is also conscious? Given a sufficienly adept understanding, is it possible to create consciousness, or is it an imutable constant, that can only be collected, or encouraged into coalescing? Is it possible to have consciousness withhout a physical container? Is there such a thing as group or collective consciousness?

    Get answers to those, bake at gas mark 5 for several lifetimes…then we may have something we could start to chew on.

    Is seems to me, that the average person, even seasoned experiencers, governmental bodies and scientific establishments alike, are so fundamentally underqualified in attempting to understand this phenomenon, that they may as well be babies trying to understand the wind. We may collectively feel like we have a handle on certain aspects but in reality, we are probably no closer to understanding it, or indeed ourselves, than we ever were. In fact I would suggest, that as a society, with an increasing focus on external physical evidence being the only valid place to start, that with every step, we are turning away from the truth of what this really is. It’s like trying to untie a shoelace by staring at a shoeprint in the sand…it’s never going to happen, until we understand where to really start focusing our attention.

    Of course we have to start somewhere…and our egos persist in pushing the idea that it is all understandable…but…maybe it just isn’t.

    If there are actually acient intelligences out there, that can be communed with in any kind of meaningful way, I wonder whether they have figured it all out? I have a sneaking suspicion that they don’t have a clue either…like the fluffy edge of a fractal boundary…the closer you look, the more complexity there is to examine…the search for truth not being answers…but an infinity of further compounded questions.

    1. Author

      “…they may as well be babies trying to understand the wind.”

      I’m not at all certain we adults understand wind!

  5. As someone who has been studying all of this since the 60’s, and also an experiencer of all kinds, I cannot be a ‘believer’ of any of it. I have my own ideas, but no conclusions about any of it, other than some things out of the ordinary have occurred with me, as well as others. And…I find myself backing off from the whole ‘UFO’ concept. It feels much more complex than that, and way beyond unknown objects appearing in the skies of our planet. The books compiled by Rey Hernandez and others, including a variety of scientists, ‘Beyond UFOs’, and the massive volumes 1 & 2 of ‘A Greater Reality’ seem to tackle the complexity, while also just scratching the surface.

    I was on ’The Experience’ several years ago, and Jeremy and I briefly discussed my childhood illnesses possibly being a part of the picture. A couple of years ago I was with a group that met on a Zoom/Podcast and shared and compared our experiences. The group included people here in the USA, as well some people in Europe and Asia. Some common threads among the group was types and severity of illness and disabilities out of the norm as children. One of these people was artist, Myron Dyal. (https://www.myrondyal.com/). And, yes, IQ is likely part of all this. So is consciousness, which may be the final frontier, not space.

    As for David Grusch, I think he was telling the truth, as he knows it through hearsay, not as an actual experiencer, unlike the pilots that also spoke that same day. James Clapper sitting behind Grusch, spoke volumes—Why was he (obviously) there? I hope, sincerely, that NASA makes a difference, but real science works slowly. There will be the usual budgetary concerns, not to mention the ones of politics which could kill the whole thing— and now we have a very conservative, far-right, extremely religious Speaker in the House. Johnson doesn’t even believe the climate science, even as our planet is at this time is going through extraordinary natural events, including a hurricane that blew up as it approached Acapulco, and in a way that was unprecedented. Will he and others like himself be willing to fund a project that may upend their belief system? My guess is no.

    Some areas of science also are reluctant to entertain changes in the paradigm of previous thought, making it harder to ‘get somewhere’ by not trying a little different path, wearing blinders that may prevent further progress and recognition. C’est la vie.

    I really enjoyed the talk with Kokjohn, who lends a welcome perspective to all of this…And excellent questions, Jeremy!

    1. ” It feels much more complex than that, and way beyond unknown objects appearing in the skies of our planet.” You are probably right about this cosmiclibrarian, but this has now become the accepted semi-official narrative! The guys who ran the DIA investigation said explicitly on the weaponized podcast that the phenomenon is part nuts and bolts, parts psychic/paranormal.

    2. It was a good interview, yes. Subtle on so many levels.

      I’d like to throw my input in on ‘Conservative and Far-Right’ being bundled together, if I may? It’s an outmoded perception. Looking at how polarised groups cause injury to both societies and individuals’ soul-development, I’d say that ‘the left’ are far ahead in terms of extremist negativity.

      As a Brit, I’m aware of the American ‘Proud Boys’.. a mixed race group of somewhat pointless origin that is more reactionary than actually conservative. They seem more interested in posturing while wearing tight (oh so tight) trousers than actually coming up with sustainable, wise and balanced social reforms. A true conservative encourages everyone to stand on their own merit and stand tall, independent and free. This is the purist definition of conservatism. It has nothing to do with being white and owning land and certainly nothing to do with machine gunning people, far from it.

      The left label conservatives as ‘fascist’ yet are happy to enslave whole populations in dependence and shadow. Historically, every fascist society was leftist. Every single one. All of them.

      I do not seek to annoy, I seek to remind that the left, throughout history, murdered millions. Hundreds of millions. The Nazis..Socialist. Stalin.. Communist.. Mao Tse Tung.. Communist.. BLM are openly Marxist, btw. An open hand, offering rice and a loaded machine gun or gas chamber in the other. Oh, and population control, industrial development and economic restructuring seemed to magically benefit from their various rasping horrors. Rasping horror rarely reflects Puccini, rather it reeks of Faustian rot more than anything one would want to stand next to while queuing.

      It never ceases to dishearten me to see and hear honest encouragement/conservatism labelled as fascism. I openly plead..PLEAD.. with everyone to count to ten before sleepwalking into entrainment.

      Entrainment Tech is very powerful but, let’s be honest, the same old polarised arguments persist decade after decade. People will always vote for free money and simultaneously decry their own lot in life. Inequality is real but it is also a matter of perception and day to day perception is quite easily influenced, it seems.

      I chose LIFE and I chose consciousness. I do not support any form of slavery and, frankly, lefist arguments support exactly that. Please don’t shoot me down in flames for saying this. I chose the full light of day and hope all lifeforms have a chance to live and prosper.

      I recently vacuumed a little spider by accident and this has troubled me a great deal. The sight of her running away, trying to survive, broke my heart. I immediately rushed out to empty the drum and save her but couldn’t find her. I couldn’t save her. How I hope she escaped!

      I am a former ultra conservative who feels disheartened when I see how easily people are steered. We take our chances and I say try something different. Stop watching TV, don’t listen to the news. Give it 10 mins max at best each day. Walk away and open the curtains, it’s daylight out there.

      Cosmic is a personal friend of almost 20 years and I hope I am not being unfair. I respect Cosmic’s thoroughly decent and wonderful fairness. Cosmic is an extremely powerful psychic yet also has political views which, last time I checked, was a delicious way to demonstrate that one is actually a real human being.

      As a Brit, I enjoy a comfortable sideline seat on American politics and keep a quiet eye on what’s what over there like a dog sleeping on a porch. I’d say America is about to end. Say hello to the North American Union after attacks by rogue States. Oh, Brics will be the bad guy for a bit but it’ll soon be forgotten, just as it’ll be forgotten that a true conservative tries to help a human being’s life-force and encourage her/him forward.

      How quickly people forget. Ah well, let’s not talk about the denser parts of the Milky Way.. 0,0

      . …- . .-. -.– / … — / — ..-. – . -. / .– . / .-.. — — -.- / ..- .–. / .- -. -.. / … . . / – .-. — ..- -… .-.. . / -.-. — — .. -. –.


      1. My heart breaks for your little spider, too. This story says a lot about you as a compassionate being. Like you, I do my best to safely take them outdoors, and only if necessary.

        You wrote: ‘A true conservative encourages everyone to stand on their own merit and stand tall, independent and free. This is the purist definition of conservatism. It has nothing to do with being white and owning land and certainly nothing to do with machine gunning people, far from it.’
        Yet, in the US, this is exactly what we find with those who label themselves “conservative.” I agree that the word doesn’t fit. All they are conserving are white supremacy and a certain brand of religion. Otherwise, they are trying to burn down much of what America has accomplished since WWII.

        And that’s not just my opinion– if you listen to the cadre which has been refusing to let our House of Representatives function, that’s what they will tell you. They don’t WANT government to be able to function.

        Calling them fascists is not so unreasonable. They (not all perhaps but some are overt about it) support an authoritarian form of government under a strongman, and you no doubt know which strongman they prefer. Fascism, according to Merriam-Webster, is: ” a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.”

        If you were here in the US and being targeted for being queer like me, thinking kids should be able to read books that accurately reflect American history, being an immigrant, etc. etc., you might see why we are calling those forces fascist.

        I don’t understand your conflation of Nazis with Socialists. Although many on the right say that, fascism and socialism are polar opposites as political philosophies, and the fact that the word “Socialist” appears in the name of the Nazi party is not meaningful. ‘Historically, every fascist society was leftist’ is not a factual statement. Something more like ‘every communist society was totalitarian’ might be more what you are trying to say–?

        The trouble is that both philosophies can lead to totalitarian dictatorships. And that’s what we need to resist. It’s democracy itself that is under threat. (There are some real conservatives still around who want to preserve a democratic system, but they’re having trouble getting any traction in the Republican party these days.)

        And without good information, whether about UAPs, the climate crisis, or whatever, even in an ideal democracy, people can’t make good decisions to meet the challenges that face us all. Disinformation and misinformation are perhaps the very greatest threat. We’re doing our best to work on that here in this forum.

        From your perspective, you likely aren’t seeing the details of what’s going on over here. It’s not those of us on the US left (which is mostly pretty moderate compared to those in Europe) who are trying to stop others from voting, or control what people can read or see. Voter suppression is huge and coordinated, and it’s coming entirely from the right.

        I can’t argue with you about America being near some kind of end. It looks like Britain is not in any better state than we are, though. I’ve been glad to see that some of the most incompetent of your “conservatives” have been given the boot. I hope better leaders are coming.

        Best wishes for you and all of us!

        1. I think the main thing here is that we are all able to discuss such matters peacefully and in a civilized fashion. When I see American politicians I don’t see genuine politicians, I see actors. That’s all democracy is if I’m to be honest, it’s just political Theatre to keep the peace and if it is done well then I say fair enough.

          Of course the problems start when polarized political views rear their head and this rarely serves anyone other than the elites. I look at the UK today and I see a country that’s on the verge of economic problems that we haven’t seen in a very long time and much of this caused by laziness and a disinclination to work hard for a living.

          I am all for helping the genuinely vulnerable but taking in everyone else from other countries who have already passed through 10 other safe countries to get here for handouts, does not sit right with me. That said, we can’t just ignore that we live in a world with suffering.

          I do not believe the answer to all of this will be left in the hands of politicians. My feeling is that somebody we currently do not recognize or cannot see in their entirety may step in and this may not be to everyone’s liking.

          Environmental factors are very important to this hidden order and in particular they regard this world as a garden of consciousness perhaps even an engine of consciousness that needs to be protected. As Captain Kirk used to say ‘Let’s hope for the best but expect the worst & plan accordingly.’

          Overpopulation is the biggest problem facing this world right now and unfortunately the countries most responsible for that all seem to have nuclear weapons and regimes that seem to be prepared to stop at nothing to get their way and Survive.

          Let’s hope for the best and let’s also hope that there is indeed a higher order of consciousness keeping a close eye on things. It is my honest opinion that most of us here, talking about such things, do indeed believe a higher order of consciousness above us and as long as we hold this view I believe there is hope for this world.


      2. Von Hausenberg and I have had some fascinating and hilarious conversations over the years, and we’ve disagreed often. We’re like two peas in a pod, only he is an English Pea and I’m a Black-Eyed Pea from the South Texas.

    3. Dear CosmicLibrarian,
      You know about this much more directly than most of us, so I take what you say very seriously.

      What you wrote about not being a “believer” echoes a lot of what Whitley has written. And since belief limits our ability to understand and take in new ideas, belief seems not a useful place to be regarding these phenomena.

      I have no UAP-type experiences, but decades of experiences in the psychic and afterlife realm. Always so many more questions than answers!

      1. Thank you, Elene! I’m just trying to figure it all out and understand it—like everyone else.

    4. A tiny bright spot is that Marco Rubio, one of the less unreasonable “conservatives,” has been prominent in the push for UAP disclosure. At least, I hope that’s a bright spot. I don’t like the guy, but he may be doing something helpful.

  6. And this is also what they wrote much earlier in “skinwalkers at the Pentagon”.

      1. Agreed! They have a new book out with more details on the investigation : “Inside the US Government Covert UFO Program: Initial revelations.”

  7. I really enjoyed this interview by Jeremy with Tyler. I look forward to listening to Jeremy’s interviews on the last Friday of the month. He’s one of the reasons I’m still here as a subscriber. Thanks!

  8. Also David Grusch himself understands that this may not be just about “little grey men in flying saucers”. Hence the reference to “nonhuman intelligence” rather than just “extraterrestrials”…

  9. How can anyone with intelligence be aware of the Tic-Tac UAP meeting the plane at the CAP point and ascend at 50 times he speed of sound and not say yes to non-human intelligence? Chance that it went to the CAP point by random is almost zero. Change that humans could create a drone to ascend that fast without heating up is almost zero. Zero plus zero = non-human intelligence!

    I really feel like this wasted my time and claiming to be scientific and lacking basic logic skills is sad.

    1. Black ops, and reverse engineering are very possible. Extreme secrecy, even more so. Look how quickly we developed nuclear bombs due to WWII. Also, read ‘Trinity’ by Vallee.
      The U.S. space program also developed very quickly after the Soviet Sputnik…Give us a little competition and the U.S. can do all kinds of things with the pressure from our military and your tax dollars, and all in the name of defense. Never under-estimate what humans are capable of if they have enough information and an endless pot of money. It doesn’t mean that we are highly evolved either. After all, the ‘guys’ are in charge…

      1. I recently read “The Man Who Mastered Gravity,” about Townsend Brown and his muddy history of research regarding electricity and gravity. It’s so confusing and bizarre. On the surface, it looks like he accomplished very little, and yet the US government was paying him for decades, and they wouldn’t have kept paying him for research that was going nowhere.

  10. I feel those who doubt the existence of unidentified objects do so partly for a fear of not wanting to admit that us humans are not at the top of the food chain. There are many documented cases of real explainable UFO encounters such as the JAL 747 freighter on approach to Anchorage Alaska which was harassed by two small UFO’s and then a large one the size of 3 aircraft carriers. The FAA investigated the incident and tried to sweep it under the rug but thanks to John Callahan of the FAA it was made public. This was an incident that was picked up on the radar of NORAD, the air traffic controller, and the fighter interceptors sent out to assist the troubled JAL aircraft as well as being visually witnessed by the flight crew and this isn’t the only such well documented case. I believe it is cases such as this that have gotten the attention of those who are now seriously investigating the phenomena.

  11. Can anyone suggest other podcasts? My work allows me to listen basically all day so I need more. Thanks!

    1. Author

      Our Undoing Radio currently runs 3 shows on the feed:

      Our Undoing Radio – It’s me talking Spirit stuff for about a half hour. Sometimes I have guests, but mainly it’s a solo show.

      Paratopia – The greatest paranormal podcast in the history of the world. It ran from 2009 – 2012. I’m rereleasing because my broadcast partner, Jeff Ritzmann, passed away a couple of years ago and his work should not be forgotten. We interviewed everyone under the sun.

      My next Dreamland episode at the end of November will feature a long clip from the Paratopia days and you will absolutely not want to miss that one.)

      Wise Ask – Recordings of a live call-in show I currently do that is a bridge between Spirit stuff and paranormal stuff.

      (Coming soon, Paratopia Live. Coming much later, Paratopia Oculus.)

      Again, all of this is under the title “Our Undoing Radio.” You can find it anywhere you listen to podcasts. Here is the Apple feed:


  12. Wow is the snark REALLY off-putting. Painfully, I listened and discovered that the host does make both cases, he’s fair pro and con NHIs exist and is here, but I just can’t listen to the snark. It’s rude and childish and my first and last podcast for this host. I’m sure we can find someone young who isn’t so abrasive or we can ask him to tone it down a bit…

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