Archived podcast for paid Subscribers only. Please login to access.

Does the search for meaning carry its own meaning? From Chinese medicine to astral projection, Robin Kelly, author of The Human Hologram and The Human Antennae, takes us on a conversational journey through the heart of human potential.

Get the Human Hologram. Click here!

Visit Robin on the web:


Dreamland Video podcast
To watch the FREE video version on YouTube, click here.

Subscribers, to watch the subscriber version of the video, first log in then click on Dreamland Subscriber-Only Video Podcast link.


  1. Continuing the recent trend
    Continuing the recent trend of the Dreamland / The Experience audio pausing at interesting times on my phone, this one stopped at an interesting multiple of 11, at exactly 22:22…then 11 seconds later Jeremy says the word ‘Trickster’…hmmm…which makes me wonder…if I weren’t there to observe it, would it still have stopped? …ping…oh, I think that’s my noodle just done baking.

    Anyway, it’s great to have Jeremy back, after what seemed like an absolute age…actually, who am I kidding(?), it flew by 😉

    Back to listening…this is turning out to be a very interesting interview…

  2. Interesting interview. The
    Interesting interview. The western approach to knowledge is that knowledge is something we possess; we ‘acquire’ knowledge. The result of this is that we use knowledge to feed our ego, but this actually blocks the deeper knowledge of how the world really works because ego only exists on the superficial levels of reality, and in identifying with that all we ever see is the superficial. Knowledge is seeing, but what we see is dependent on our consciousness. Integral knowledge requires an integral consciousness. as free of ego as possible, or at least not locked in its orbit. If we approach reality with humility rather than with ego, the knowledge we get will be correspondingly deeper and more integral. This is the approach I see Dr. Kelly taking.

    Jeremy, you asked how the ancient Chinese arrived at the knowledge that the tongue could reveal the level of health in the whole body. From a certain level of consciousness I think it would be obvious: the tongue is the organ of expression; you simply listen to it with humility and discover what it reveals, on all levels, not just the superficial.

    I suspect the development of acupuncture followed similar lines; once there was a deep enough consciousness to perceive the Chi, it’s a short step to intervene.

    The development of this knowledge had nothing to do with the expanding of the ego, as the development of knowledge today too often has. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if ancient Chinese medicine or Aryurveda was the secondary result of a profound introspection, rather than the amok search for domination that the quest for knowledge more often than not resembles today.

  3. RE: Words that Lakota don’t
    RE: Words that Lakota don’t have — years ago I heard Tiokasin say that they have no word for “better”. The concept just doesn’t exist. I ponder that a lot and try to live it, moving further away from focusing on material things. Great show once again, Jeremy!

  4. Perfect and synchronous show,
    Perfect and synchronous show, thank you both.

    And I may have missed the exact question but I believe Jeremy asked about the difference between lucid dreaming and OBE. In my OPINION, based on personal experience with both, while lucid dreaming you simply come to any level of awareness of your waking life while dreaming. You can control things but it is an inner world. During an OBE, there is no becoming aware of your waking life because you are already awake, and you have control of NOTHING. You seem to be in the outer world.

    When you wake from a dream, lucid or not, you come to the startling realization that it was just a dream. After an OBE, there is no waking up, you were awake, and you come to the startling realization that you know nothing. Also, there is a lot of vibrations while OBE, something rarely experienced in dreams.

    Just my own experience, lines are easily blurred and I might be completely wrong.

  5. Hi Andy,
    While I have no

    Hi Andy,
    While I have no discernible experience with either, I find the differences you cite interesting. What strikes me about them is that during an OBE you’re immersed in the physical world, but you yourself are not physical, and in a lucid dream you’re immersed in a non-physical world, yet you perceive yourself as physical (having the same consciousness as you do in the waking world). A dichotomy between you and the environment seems consistent across both types of experience, and even though YOU are the same in both environments, you’re perceived relationships with them are opposites. I don’t know if I’m on to something but that’s what stood out to me.

  6. Steve,
    Thanks for the really


    Thanks for the really good insight

    1. Thanks Andy. I was hoping it
      Thanks Andy. I was hoping it would spark some discussion, especially after Jeremy’s long(ish) absence, but I guess not. Isn’t the new site supposed to have a proper discussion board? Though perhaps the problem is subjective and not objective (what problem isn’t!?). Maybe people see no point in discussing these things, and maybe they’re right, but it beats watching the world burn – in its passivity.

  7. Hi Andy / Steve,
    I have some

    Hi Andy / Steve,
    I have some experience with lucid dreaming but very little of OBEing…from what I remember reading about the latter, although the perceived environment seems like a perfect representation of the ‘real’ world, as I understand it, there are often very subtle differences…as in a dream but far more stable, consistent and accurate. Assuming from experience, that the lucid dream environment can be manipulated to a certain degree by the dreamer, I wonder whether the OBE environment cannot, because it is not our dream? Maybe we have gone outside of ourselves, but are still within the lucid dream of a larger, far more adept, encompassing consciousness.

    That leads me on to pondering, to what extent the ability to consciously manipulate ones own dream environment, might extend back into the physical. Maybe we have the ability to change more than we think. That reminds of an interview on UC’s ‘Mysterious Powers’ way back, where Anne was talking to Todd Michael about his own translations of the Bible. They had an interesting discussion about the word ‘logos’ in the first parts of the Genesis creation story and its distilled meaning of ‘Creation through conscious intention’…which seems like a good description of what is possible in lucid dreams…and who knows where else?

  8. …regarding synchronicities,
    …regarding synchronicities, after I posted the above, I got ready for bed and switched on the light on the clock, next to my pillow…I swear that the instant I switched on the light, the time read 12:34 and 56 seconds! After all this time, I still don’t really know what that kind of thing means…huh…and just as I wrote that, I realised that the button I pressed just before I saw that time, has a light bulb graphic next to it…ping…light bulb moment, maybe? Haha!

    1. Hi Sherbet,
      I think all

      Hi Sherbet,
      I think all experiencers of the anomalous have to ask themselves how real is the ‘real’, and to what extent ‘real’ equates to ‘stable’. Certainly the world’s resistance to change can be both assuring and frustrating, yet the existence of Time makes both perspectives ultimately dream-like and anything but ‘stable’. Whether all this makes the ‘real’ relative, or just the ‘relative’ real is perhaps a distinction without a difference.

      Whatever ‘the world’ really is, there seems to be a fundamental relationship between the inner and the outer, the subjective and objective. Imagination, belief, creativity, and invention indicate the outer world is plastic to the inner. Physicality, matter, separation, conflict, the terms placed on cause and effect, moves oppositely from outer to inner, defying or denying what is otherwise possible, and questioning every answer. Whether the latter is with the best or worst intentions, or none at all, well, take your pick.

    2. 1-2-3-4-5-6-7, all good
      1-2-3-4-5-6-7, all good children go to heaven.

  9. Expanding on my previous
    Expanding on my previous post, 8-9-10-11–just kidding. Regarding the ‘realness’ of the physical world, and equating that to its aspect of ‘stability’, when I said above ‘whatever the world really is’ is not really the right phrase. ‘whatever the worlds really are’ would be more accurate, because matter is just one world, there are laws specific to it which are for the most part reliable, but no world exists in total isolation from other worlds, there is an interpenetration, a communication- an influence from one to another. This is the source of anomalous experience in the physical world. They are unnatural only in the terms of the physical world itself, but not in the terms of the interpenetration and communication that is a natural and inherent aspect of every world with every other. No laws are violated when these take place, nothing is fundamentally changed regarding the laws of a given world, nevertheless, the very nature of this communication and interpenetration would make it seem so, and serve to confuse the hell out of anyone who sees the laws of just one world as isolated and omnipotent, this is a particularly prone point of view in the physical world, where oneness plays a vagabond role and seems to impose rather than to repose, and with all that that implies.

  10. Hi Andy,
    You did a good job

    Hi Andy,

    You did a good job explaining the difference between an OBE and lucid dreaming. The full question was – What’s the difference between lucid dreaming, astral projection and an OBE.

    I think the simplest answer is as follows:

    Lucid dreaming – Being consciously aware that you are dreaming regardless of how much control you may, or may not have, over the dream.

    Astral Projection – Projecting ones consciousness (or awareness) outside of the body. Most often referring to travels of the consciousness through the Astral Plane. Astral Projection is NOT leaving the body, but projecting the consciousness outside the body or to an internal or other worldly reality.

    Out-of-Body – The exorcism of the second body (energy body, spirit, ect..) from the physical body were travel of the second body is possible. Although some are unable to control their movements during an OBE (sometimes just “floating” above or about the physical body’s location).

    Many don’t accept that you can actually leave your body at all, believing instead that such experiences are all simply Astral Projection. Even further, many others think all such experiences (including lucid dreaming) are all internal and that the is no external reality to any of it.

    The distinction between one’s consciousness and the second body is a difficult one. I think the consciousness is a non-local energy that has no physicality and the second body is more of a different kind of “physical”, but who really knows.

    Anyway, those are the best definitions for each that I have come across.


  11. Reading two good books on the
    Reading two good books on the subject right now. “Adventures beyond the body” by William Buhlman and “out of body experience How to have them and what to expect” by Robert Peterson (that one I have lots of tabs in for later reference)

Comments are closed, but trackbacks and pingbacks are open.