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Much has been made of Whitley Strieber’s book-that-won’t-quit, The Key that brings to mind 2 simple questions: How do we discern an experiencer’s truthfulness when they bring forth extraordinary claims with no direct evidence? And, What are our motives in asking?

If you’re not yet a subscriber to Unknown Country, this one’s densely packed with insights and worth the price of admission!
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  1. Hey Jeremy,
    note: open “edit”

    Hey Jeremy,
    note: open “edit” in a new tab or you’ll lose your place in the show if it playing.
    Ok, that was super cool! I gotta go listen again. Theres way to much to get in one pass here.
    – multiple appearances of shrouded/cloaked figures
    – and Dr. Seuss reference was a total surprise.
    – the fractal biz reminds me of 2 mirrors facing each other. When you look into one, you see the infinite reflections.
    – (all about me) AND… Jeff talking about his “drawing” board experience…”drawing back” sounding just like what happened to me, sans the lab coat guy peeking at the orb..and he went even farther out. All that reminded me of MiB at the end of the film where the planet was put into a locket.
    For me that was a WOW show. JeeeeeeBus.

    1. I was thinking about that orb
      I was thinking about that orb in MiB too!

      1. Ha, I thought the same thing!
        Ha, I thought the same thing! “The Galaxy is on Orion’s belt,” or something like that was the quote.

        Hearing that story made me wonder if the being was describing multiple separate nested universes, like Russian nesting dolls, or one single universe looping upon itself, where the particle we are observing is our own universe played at tremendous speed, and the universe as we know it is a tiny particle within itself again. That’s the thing about fractals, right? The same pattern over and over again.

        1. That’s an interesting idea of
          That’s an interesting idea of a universe looping back on itself, as opposed to a series of separate universes.

          With fractals, I think the patterns can be very similar at different levels but they are subtly different…so if we used that analogy, maybe they would have to be separate universes?

          Who knows, maybe we are living in a universe, which is an atom of a flea, on the back of Orion, whose flea collar happens to hold yet another universe 🙂

          1. >so if we used that analogy,
            >so if we used that analogy, maybe they would have to be separate universes?

            Yeah, maybe. I can’t decide which idea would be more interesting if true: the nesting dolls or the infinite loop. Probably the former, for me. It would yield a “bigger” infinity, if that makes sense. And it kind of seemed like the being was pointing more to that version of reality.

            Kind of makes me want to check out Paratopia. Sounds like a pretty interesting show.

        2. hey Mr….
          They say

          hey Mr….
          They say everything is “relative” right? The representation of an atom also resembles a solar system. like you said, the nesting dolls and the universe looping back on itself. If you look into those 2 opposing mirrors and see the reflections going on… eventually the reflection gets smaller & smaller…nesting dolls. And, like the fractals repeating, the mirror’s images have to adjust to contain the whole image. Smaller & smaller. the universe looping back on itself. At what point does that stop? Or does it stop?
          These comments are really gonna light some fires!!!! Now, see what you’ve done Jeremy! I hope youre happy with yourself =)

          1. >At what point does that
            >At what point does that stop? Or does it stop?

            It’s hard to imagine a reason why it would stop. I can’t think of one, really.

            As a kid, I was always fascinated by the effect of opposing mirrors—the way the reflections stretched off into a kind of foggy infinity. I kind of want to re-listen to the bit about parallel echoes and think about that for a bit. Good stuff.

  2. This idea of the tickster
    This idea of the tickster interests me.

    When we heard the bits about the plague doctor, the fact that this character wore a mask immediately made me think of the front cover of ‘Passport to Magonia’…

    …which of course is reminiscent of a play, or theater. As was suggested in this episode and mentioned previously by Anne, I think…it’s all like a play.

    …only yesterday, I was thinking about the first time I tried to go out of my body…to cut a longish story short, I had a vision (for want of a better word) of an otherworldly woman standing in the doorway to my room, her dress was the most beautifully intricate thing I had ever ‘seen’ and it shone from within, with its own light. I moved my attention upwards and where her face should have been, there was a void…nothing.

    With these things in the back of my mind, the phrase / question “Take away the mask and what do you see?” keeps coming to mind. Hmmm. Well, in the case of the lady in the doorway…nothing.

    I will just quickly recount a dream I had when I was about five…well, there is no point boring you with the first parts of the dream but the final parts culminated with nine knocks at the back door – three sets of three. Still in the dream, a very scared little boy looking out of the rear kitchen window then saw what I can only describe as the devil, flying from around the side of the house where the door was, looking back at me standing petrified in the kitchen…he was laughing at me, as he did so. Interestingly enough, he was a kind of pantomime devil; Difficult to describe but that is the impression I got (like a full body version of the mask from ‘Passport to Magonia’, covering something alive…with a rather unpleasant sense of humour). Regardless, that little boy opened the rear door where the knock had been and past which this devil had flown – it was dark outside…and what do you think I saw when I stepped outside the house…attempting to unmask the phantom at the door?…absolutely nothing, no devil – just me and the cold night air.

    Occasionally I like messing about with words. This time with “The Master of the Key”…take away the letters that spell ‘Mask’ (take away the mask and what do to you see?) and you get “The ter of the ey”…Theater of the Eye?…a stretch maybe but a half decent description of a play…it comes full circle.

    But when revealed, if there is truly nothing behind the trickster’s mask, what animates it? And if it is all just a play, does that mean we are all on the stage too?

    1. Wow, now THATS a cool
      Wow, now THATS a cool trickster statement…. Theater of the Eye…. or is it “I” ..or is it the “All seeing eye” above the pyramid on the dollar bill…….. And the “un-mask-ing”. Sheesh that spun out fast. Great shot, Sherbet! I gotta go skim more comments!

  3. I would tent to agree with
    I would tent to agree with the suggestion that we can forget what we have previously written.

    I remember going up to clear out the loft when my parents were moving house. In there I found folders full of work I had done whilst a student (many moons ago!) but when looking at most of them, although they were clearly my handwriting, I had not the slightest memory of writing them – a very strange feeling.

    I could well imagine that someone with an eidetic / photographic memory, might find it strange that you would not remember having written something, even when being presented with the physical evidence but I would suggest that it is just part of the normal human experience of memory fading with time.

    Is it expected that an author would remember their work any more, than the rest of us? They are still human and subject to the same fallibilities.

    The same happens to me, that Jeremy mentioned, when writing stuff now – I can type something that seems like a fairly fresh musing on my part, triggered by a comment someone has made, or a thought that popped into my head but then find I have written pretty much the same thing a year earlier and completely forgotten. It would be great we we only wrote new ideas but I suspect we wouldn’t be writing for long!

  4. So much here, and I identify
    So much here, and I identify with much of it, but from a little different point of view…

    Regarding amnesia about things that we write down:

    I can attest to that! Back during 2005-2007 when reality got ‘blown open’ for me, I had experiences and synchronicities daily, and several times each day. I was fortunate in that other people, including friends and family members, got drawn into some of it. While I had unusual experiences my whole life, this period was off the charts. Soon after I began having the experiences, several people encouraged me to write it all down. I did, and also kept plastic sleeves and pouches in my journal for ‘physical’ evidence and photos. By 2007, life circumstances had changed, and the pace of the weirdness slowed down a lot. A few months ago, I decided to pull out that very thick journal and review it all. While I remembered much of it, there was a whole lot of other things that happened that I had totally forgotten about, and to the point that I asked myself, “Did this really happen?”

    Sherbet and HG:
    Theater of the Eye (I)? I like that, because it also takes us to the All Seeing Eye, and Ancient Egypt, which is in line with the cloaked being with a beak. Jeff and Jeremy equated that figure with The Plague Doctor. However, i had experiences with a similar being, but he came across as the Egyptian god, Thoth. ( He was a major god in the Egyptian pantheon, but I’ll let you all ‘google’ that for yourselves!). I was meditating and had just taken a little journey that had nothing to do with Egypt or ancient gods, but interestingly had to do with a being called While Buffalo Calf Woman and a sacred ‘bundle’. Boom. Out of nowhere is the ibis-headed god, Thoth. he walks up to me, is extremely tall, and I felt very intimidated. He begins to laugh, then removes his ibis-head mask (Which appeared to be made of metal). He is revealed to be a pretty normal looking man, and he says to me, “I am just a man who is a record-keeper. Just like you are a woman who is a record-keeper.” With that the meditation, vision, whatever ended. What the heck?

    And just this morning, I had something happen to me that occurs frequently. I spend some time each morning walking in our park and neighborhood, and for me it is about connecting to nature, and also a type of meditation. It’s not unusual for me to get some insights during my walks, but what I find frustrating is when something totally out of the ordinary comes through, and I can’t wait to get home to write it down, only to have the thought and memory go bye-bye by the time I walk into my front door! What typically occurs is that the idea comes into my head, I tell myself to remember it, which is soon followed by a sound of suction and reduction of hearing, replaced by a high-pitched sound that soon goes away. It’s not tinnitus, and I have started to notice it during these odd moments. it’s like once that high-pitched sound goes away, so does the memory of that important idea or thought. I remember having the important thought, but the details disappear! I am not a person that likes to be attached to devices, but I may start taking along my phone and have ‘record’ open and ready to go.

    I am glad that fractals and universes-within-universes, and observing ourselves observing ourselves were brought up in this episode. I have had the experience of observing myself, and also of looking out through the eyes of others, and this is becoming more the ‘norm’ in the way that I dream. Oddly enough, I had a dream last night where I was ‘me’, but all of the other people in the dream were the people that I have never actually met here at Unknown Country. The dream was about getting strange communications from (?), communicating with each other and (?), and finding new and improved ways to do it. 🙂

    1. Hi CL,
      Interesting about the

      Hi CL,

      Interesting about the Egyptian connection…as going back to “The Master of the Key” without the ‘mask’ being “The ter of the ey”…this is also an anagram of “Thoth teref eye”…which kind of sound like ‘Thoth terrify’…but far more fascinating and according to ‘The Egyptian Book of the Dead’, the hieroglyph ‘teref’ translates, as far as I can see, as ‘divine books’…perhaps, divine library(?)…and of course…well, you being who you are…and the story you just related, I thought that might interest you too.

      Edit: for some reason that link doesn’t work properly…but if you clear the search and enter ‘teref’ in the search box again on the left, it will work.

      1. Sherbet,
        There is a story


        There is a story about my ‘Cosmic Librarian’ moniker, and it came to me during an experience where I was, indeed, taken to a ‘cosmic library’, and with a strong Egyptian connection too.

        P.S. I have had a my own copy of ‘The Egyptian Book of the Dead’ since I was young woman. 🙂

        1. “…I have had a my own copy
          “…I have had a my own copy of ‘The Egyptian Book of the Dead’…”

          Now, why does that not surprise me?! 🙂

  5. Jeremy, a great program.

    Jeremy, a great program.

    I went in another direction listening … to the whole thing on Linda Moulton Howe’s show and Jim Penniston (Bentwaters) and touching the ufo… now having symbols run through his mind …. Well, when i read that about the symbols, i connected. I haven’t touched the outside of space vehicles. Your show – the “inside of our eyes” … so i wonder once again… There seems to be a connection in both this show, the comments, and the whole thing about the developing piece about the universes and fractals, and our minds etc.
    So maybe the inside of our mind (when we actually get a “look at it”) is the same as the universes outside our bodies… fractals are intrinsic to this. We have, the moment of “touching” where the inside and outside meet… and there is so much that just skips across like a stone across water. Later to search what it was we missed by the “skip”

    I am guessing that this sounds/reads like nonsense. Sorry about that. I do not have the science or math background which would help make it “understandable” to many of the listeners. However that may be, i do believe we are standing at a point of conjunction of worlds. When we reach out mentally, physically, psychically, etc we can touch more than one and see just enough to know there’s more. But we are not able yet, to bring it back intact. Perhaps like fractals, it is one piece at a time, repeated until we get the bigger picture, and then the smaller picture, and so on and so on.

    Just call me crazy mama… or not so much dreamer…
    PS i think perhaps it isn’t just to things which we barely touch or are aware of when we touch other worlds… it is also with people and how we are our most true persons… not just 3D bodies… and what it means to be fully human…. are we preparing for another great change much like the biggest changes in recorded history of civilizations?

    1. Dreamer: What you are doing
      Dreamer: What you are doing is connecting the dots.

  6. Hey, look what I found! We
    Hey, look what I found! We need to start a write-in campaign to get them to release this. It’s already got its own amazon page.

    At this point it would be like a time capsule–interesting to see what stood the test of time and how they were thinking back then.

  7. What a mind bending concept
    What a mind bending concept that Universes as particles/within particles is. Why would reality be that way, and more importantly why would such inter-universe communication be a concern of any given entity? I’m not dissing the concept, just trying to understand the purpose to a reality that seems to make any given Universe potentially insignificant. Perhaps given that Cosmic Insignificance, the only thing approaching significance is such inter-universe communication, but, not a very inspiring concept. If that’s all there is to look forward to, I want an escape clause. Like Harley implied, it’s like being stuck in a cosmic house of mirrors; a nice place to visit, but I wouldn’t want to live there…maybe I’m just taking it all too personally, and beyond the challenge to KNOW it is the challenge to LIKE it. LOL.

    I think the reason I find the concept so challenging is because it seems to imply that everything is potentially infinitely insignificant, whereas my own view is that everything is actually infinitely significant. It’s like something I would expect to hear from a Black Hole if I asked it what the Universe looked like: “No Escape” would be the answer.

    1. “maybe I’m just taking it all
      “maybe I’m just taking it all too personally, and beyond the challenge to KNOW it is the challenge to LIKE it.”

      –Is a pretty great statement I’d not really pondered. What if we DON’T like the ending of the story? Do we become cast out as demons or bite our tongues and become Stepford Heaven bots?

      It sounds like what you’re worried about is a cloned universe, but I think (correct me if I’m wrong) the fractal model means it’s “cloned” but with mutations that make them unique. In one world I’m me, in another I’m female, in another I’m a gray… maybe?

      If so, then the body and persona of ME here is only a piece of the larger fractal MEs. And if they all integrate, what happens? Fractally, we can see this when brain-self integrates with heart-self. What if there’s then another integrated me in another universe waiting for me to integrate so s/he can pull the trigger and integrate us? And so on down the line. When all of these particle worlds integrate, do they become the body of a new being?

      So many crazy questions, so little time. Left.

      1. Well, whether we’re divided
        Well, whether we’re divided fractally or just divided, it’s undeniable to anyone who asks themselves the question “What is Truth” that we don’t natively have it, but the intuition or instinct that we somehow have the right to seek it and to find it seems universal. It may seem such a daunting task that the intellect, on its own, can almost immediately, sincerely, and correctly admit defeat, but that’s the limitation of the intellect, but no one need believe that the intellect is the only way forward. It requires something deeper, the first, perhaps, being the faith that we’re somehow up to the task.

        What that belief implies is that while we may not possess the Truth, we are at least essentially of the Truth, that the Truth we seek embodies us and all of our limitations even while we do not currently embody the Truth and all that that implies.

        I think the reason the house of mirrors hypothesis does not appeal to me is because it seems to be a rabbit hole leading to an infinite number of rabbit holes, an intellectual maze with possibly no issue, a fractal of infinitely repeating questions with no promise of an answer. What little experience I have interacting with what I call the Truth, is that it’s something Loving, Beautiful, Inclusive, Giving, Empowering, and where complexity dissolves into an infinitely vast Simplicity.

  8. If any of you happen to
    If any of you happen to subscribe to Earthfiles ‘X-Files’, I recommend reading Linda’s 11 part series ‘Hall of Mirrors with A Quicksand Floor’…

  9. Steve44,
    Your comments are

    Your comments are quite interesting. Perhaps inter universe communication already happens. Perhaps we are not consciously aware of it. Perhaps because we don’t “live” as if everything is connected… all is One. We don’t live it as people of this planet… for example, we depend on the planet for life and yet we pollute it -undermining the present and future lives on Earth.

    The process of making judgements creates significance. Significance is in the eye and mind of the each person, government, culture, and civilization.
    All priorities have bias. These have immediate impact on others. All this is “reality” – which understood differently by each person/group. Choices affect every level but not to the same extent.

    All is One – from smallest iota to ALL Creation. Whether we get it or not. No matter how we conceive Creation occurred and/or is ongoing. It is all One. And that means we are connected whether we know it or not, like it or not, understand it or not. Whether inter-universe communication goes on is not yet proven. However, if things are “similar all the way up or down” it goes on and we don’t recognize it as such.

    1. While ‘significance’ implies
      While ‘significance’ implies subjective, and ‘subjective’ implies ‘limited’, does that mean there is no ultimate significance? If we assume there is an ultimate Consciousness, then there is also an ultimate point of view. What looks significant from that Point of View? If we assume the hall of mirrors is the actual reality, while we cannot say that precludes the Ultimate Point of View as seeing everything as significant, it would seem to imply that that Ultimate Point of View is also Ultimately Exclusive in access to that point of view, and that seems to me to be an Ultimate Paradox, since if there’s an ultimate significance it can only be so if it’s ultimately shared, and applicable to All, not Exclusive, but Inclusive.

      1. Good points, Steve44. I am
        Good points, Steve44. I am neither philosopher nor great thinker. So your question brought a bit of work to think it through. I don’t think i burned-out any wiring, though. Time will tell : )

        How do we “know” anything? We create our own sense/understanding of significance. To step “beyond limitation” is a rare event, but not unknown. All great minds did that one way or another. That is in all areas of thought we know…

        It seems that the variety of ways we use our individual minds, has everything to do with a possible answer to the paradox.

        We learn from both selfish and unselfless behaviors. We learn from records of other people’s behaviors through observation, books, conversations, etc. We learn through use of all sorts of devices, as well. In every action and thought we learn. It is both subjective and objective learning. [Ojectivity in any form including facts, may be quite rare for us, since the sieve of personal judgement and perspective and experience undermines objectivity.]

        Subjectivity is inborn in us. We can try approaching the balance point between subjective and objective. Maybe that is the Omega Point. (I just made that up.)

        Just because earth beings are this way, doesn’t mean life everywhere else this way. Given the variety of life on this planet, and all forms of it aren’t “like us” -it seems logical off earth life will be different from us.

        Perhaps the Ultimate Point of View can be the whole of all points of view across all life and existences both within as well as outside time, and both limited and unlimited. Which means that it isn’t like us.

        I suspect sometimes a person does touch “Ultimate Point of View.” Those people reached out and touched beyond through their minds, and were able to “bring back” some of what they “found.” (great artists of all types seem to speak of this.)As far as i know, what they brought back was applied and limited because of the limitations of our world. So the Ultimate Point of View and ultimate significance may be “out there” but we, as yet, are unable to “bring it back here, intact. That may be for our safety among ourselves and other life outside this 3d realm we inhabit.

        It seems you are trying to get “outside” our limitations
        – or at least my limits. No problem.

        I do not need to understand everything in the Ultimate Consciousness sense of understanding in order to live this life. If it is a concern what Ultimate Consciousness is… maybe some call it God… that is up to each individual. If i know and understand God… then i would be God. “You are gods” is not the same as “You are God.” However the individual sees (if they see) an ultimate Consciousness… is not mine to know. I am simply here to be who i am. That is all i have to offer.

      2. I think that if there is an
        I think that if there is an Ultimate Point of View, it’s probably not something a human brain can really apprehend. Our brains aren’t too good at getting a good, solid grasp of concepts like infinity. Have you ever seen those diagrams attempting to explain 4-dimensional shapes like the hypercube? You see it, and you understand the idea, but you don’t really *grasp* it the way you understand a cube, or other 3-dimensional object. I’d like to think that a consciousness capable of perceiving an Ultimate Point of View wouldn’t have those kinds of limitations.

        >maybe I’m just taking it all too personally, and beyond the challenge to KNOW it is the challenge to LIKE it.

        From a human perspective, is a fractal multiverse like the being describes really any bigger than the already infinite universe science tells us we live in? How do you deal with the idea that we live on a dust mote in a vast galaxy that is itself an imperceptibly small speck in an endless black void we call the universe? To me, from a human perspective, one does not feel much larger than the other. And whatever answer we already have for the question of our significance in the universe would also apply to this fractal multiverse, too.

        Great stuff, Steve. I really enjoyed reading and thinking about your posts.

  10. Maybe temporarily forgetting
    Maybe temporarily forgetting the ultimate Point of View is required in order to experience limits and only within those bounds can one change…where consciousness can be directed, rather than just observed? And in that state, again a paradox, where the static also moves.

  11. It seems to me that Ultimate
    It seems to me that Ultimate Paradox is the essence of Trickster theory. The similarities between the plague doctor mask and various trickster gods are compelling, but I find the image interesting also in another regard. I became familiar with the mask when it was circulated during the SARS epidemic in Toronto in 2003. (Not that anybody was wearing such masks – it was more a representation of the extraordinary measures healthcare workers had to take to prevent transmission.) So it’s interesting to me that this “entity” is using this imagery as if to scare experiencers into self-imposed quarantine of fear and silence. It also suggests something about the nature of the information experiencers might share, as if it has a life and ability to propagate on its own. The plague doctor’s role was more about stopping the disease’s spread, than about treating patients. So now this has me pondering the role actual plagues have had in Jeremy’s stories about the Kahunas, the “quarantine” of their knowledge, or even of souls caught in a certain plane …

    1. Never understood that the
      Never understood that the plague doctor was preventing disease from spreading as opposed to treating patients. Thank you for that. Prior to the doctor, there were physical repercussions when Jeff tried to talk about this stuff publicly. He was fine to do it one on one but not as a mass communication. To that end his shrouded guy made it clear that some info was just for Jeff and it seemed to us that there would be an ill effect from spreading it–namely that a large contingent of people would want to “own” the knowledge and make it all about them, but also some of the info is vague enough to conjure fear.

      Your bit about Kahunas is a fascinating idea. And then it gets me to thinking about all the experiencers who believe they/we are being given knowledge for some future thing that never seems to come. We also often hear that Earth is quarantined. Put these together, and are we to survive whatever happens next and some interdimensional “kahunas” rescue us to start anew with this knowledge? Is Whitley’s MOTK such a one, inviting us to heed his words of transcendence if only we get past the initiatory gate of the improbable, and kind of insulting, first bit about a Jewish kid who never got a chance to invent our way off earth? (Insulting because it cannot be proved or even given evidence to and yet it’s stated like a historical fact, right up front. There’s no easing into those cold waters!)

      Is that what Whitley’s next book is for, too? Not building a strong soul for an after life, but for a better world we may have to step into should this one finally reject us?

      Just a thought.

  12. “The representation of an
    “The representation of an atom also resembles a solar system.”

    The representation sort of does. The reality does not, and that suggestion of connection is specious at best.

    I think we’re being asked to consider that every particle of our universe, or at least specific types of particles, can contain entire universes. I believe Jeff Ritzmann is honestly relaying what he experienced and he’s a cool guy. But I’m quite skeptical about the information itself. Part of that has to do with the amount of energy we can measure (in this universe, obviously) of the particle, let’s say an electron, which is sort of a particle but really is an energy field.

    As Whitley has pointed out, heat (energy) has no upper limit, but cold does have a limit, absolute zero. Now I don’t really claim to know much, but if there’s a whole universe in an elementary atomic particle, and the assertion is it can be every bit as huge and full of stars and galaxies as our universe, then all that energy is somehow contained or sustained by the energy of what to us is a particle. There may be some mathematics of dimensions that allows for this possibility (and reality is reality no matter how good we are at mapping it using math), but I don’t think fractals fall exactly in that category.

    Note that fractals are repeating patterns that can scale up infinitely. OK, that sounds pretty good so far. But if our universe is inside some elementary particle in another universe, and our particles are also universes, where is the pattern connection that gets us from the quark or electron up to the scale and shape of what we observe of our universe? It seems to me, there is quite a break there, and at multiple levels of scale. So like a lot of New Age interpretations of science (with a fair number of whoppers seemingly derived from only surface sound bites of quantum physics with minimal actual comprehension), it sounds good at first but ultimately is perhaps shoddy. As always, I could be wrong.

    1. You’ve nailed an important
      You’ve nailed an important point Jeff stressed over and over, even though his critics refused to hear it: This might be an intellectual exercise that sounds true enough to get us excited and imagining greater possibilities, but ultimately collapses as untrue upon further investigation. We’ve seen this time and again with “contactee” and “abductee” type messages.

      Why an intelligence would bother is anyone’s guess. I’ll give mine. If none of this is true, then it’s for someone or a bunch of people to hear and do something with. It might be incorrect information, but leading the right people to stumble into the door of something real by pointing their interest in that direction. Maybe this has to do with free will vs. handing us everything on a silver platter.

      I say that and yet… I’m tempted to still take the message at face value!

      1. All that i really know for
        All that i really know for sure is that each and every strange experience that I have seems to lead to more of them, but i feel that is only because of my extreme curiosity about them and my quest for more knowledge about how everything works. I sometimes wonder what would play out if I just started blowing off these experiences and began vegetating in front of my TV or hand-held device, or focused on crocheting doilies. i have been on this unusual quest since I was a little kid, and I have no idea where it will lead beyond my body’s eventual expiration date. Like most people, I believe that answers to my questions would be great, but I also know that the quest itself is probably more important than the answers. Not to sound cheesy here, but maybe it really is about the journey, keeping the mind wide open to experience, and retaining a sense of wonder.

      2. Right, it could be a thought
        Right, it could be a thought exercise that actually has a different purpose than teaching us about fractals and infinite universes. I liked that ulterior-motive concept very much in “Arrival”, where (SPOILER ALERT!) the “aliens” brought a language to us that, upon really learning it, would actually change our perception of time, and as such the course of human history for the better.

        I surely have my biases and I do tend to analyze things, but ultimately I rarely rule things out as impossible. Like you say, the face value meaning of Jeff’s visitor could be true. But it comes back down to this concept of discernment that has come up repeatedly on your show, including when I was a guest. On this Key Revisited show, I think this subject was mainly about discerning who is telling the truth when they have extraordinary claims– a good and insightful job on that, btw, and I agreed with all your assessments.

        But there is also discernment among rather messy ideas, often deeply held beliefs on the part of individuals, which can often conflict with one another. The 9/11 hijackers apparently acted with religious conviction when they killed thousands of people by slamming jets into the Twin Towers, believing they would be rewarded for it by spending eternity in paradise in the company of 72 virgins. I guess apiece. For most of us, that’s an easy one to decide how we feel about it: WRONG! (or at least we hope so, and the 72 virgins thing seems especially silly; was 68 not enough? 87 too many?) Do I know I’m right for a fact that they’re not enjoying that right now with exactly that number of sex partners? Of course I can’t know, but I strongly suspect they’re not.

        Then there are the more nuanced ones, like the discussion with your very delightful guest, Lehua Lopez, about Madame Pele. I certainly respected the woman and her conviction of belief, and I know she’s like a hundred times more charming than myself on a podcast. But part of the show forced me think about it more deeply, where she was involved in a court case opposing the use of a Hawaiian volcano for harvesting geothermal energy. I felt for the judge there, and perhaps unlike how it was presented, I didn’t think it was simply a case of corporate greed (or Western stupidity) vs. noble ancient wisdom, and… well, that’s all probably a subject best left for another discussion. But it goes back to discernment, and I think something like the 9/11 example demonstrates that we can consider deeply held beliefs (of ourselves and others), heart instincts, and extra-sensory information as part of the fact-finding (even acting as Westerners, believe it or not!), but not throw out reason, logic, and science in our discernment process. I think few stories like this are as simplistic as Dances With Wolves, The Emerald Forest, and Avatar, and that’s sometimes how I feel it goes on your show. Hey, I love the show and respect your talents, I just sometimes disagree with the sneery vibe (if I may) of that sort of discussion.

        As I think you mentioned above, Jeremy, we have to find our own integration of what you call “brain self” and “heart self”. So far, people are all over the map and it seems like we can’t even all agree to acknowledge each others’ right to exist in the supermarket. But it would be great if someday some mass raising of consciousness can get us all to have intrinsic awareness of heart and mind, and we’ll not only make better decisions, we’ll stop being dicks to each other on a regular basis. I think it won’t take anything less than higher consciousness, and I mean higher than the one I generally operate within (as a pretty open-minded “experiencer” and fairly empathic-to-people-and-nature guy); maybe higher even than Ms. Lopez.

        One final thought… I noted that you mentioned early on in this show my post about Whitley’s interview. Correct me if I’m wrong, but given you didn’t even quote my online name it sounded like you were at least vaguely throwing me in with what you call “trolls”, or at least wondering if I might be a minion of some undercurrent of chaos building up to subvert your fine interview show. You could have just asked me, “WTF?”, as I hoped I might at least be perceived as a reasonable human being when I was on your show not that long ago. (I’d *sigh*, but that would be pathetic of me.)

        I’ve re-listened to at least half of the Whitley interview so far (which I suggested in my own post I should probably do) and yes there were things Whitley said that sounded original to that interview. But, perhaps selfishly, I was hoping for some juicy new stories and experiences, you know the kind of tidbits about The Visitors and the afterlife we all tend to hang on since the first publishing of Communion. My hopes were especially high since Whitley recently alluded to some kind of direct physical encounter he was going to have with the Visitors. So in the end, I didn’t feel like it was a high-tidbit show, so to speak, unless I was just being obtuse, hence my comment that you snip-quoted on air. (It was not meant to be barbed.) This is not criticism, but what I felt we Visitor-tidbit-greedy listeners got instead was a pretty interesting interview that had a sort of “Inside the Writers’ Studio” vibe to it, some elucidation of Whitley’s politics (none too surprising, although I thought his insight about the disproportionate voting power among the electorate was quite interesting), in contrast to the modus operandi of other interviews on The Experience, which is basically to pry out paranormal experiences and personal interpretations. I realize Whitley is a much tougher prospect, but I had high hopes that you might grill him more in that direction.

        As to my comment about the fate of the dead Kahunas, your new comments about allowing for multiple realities of afterlife are well taken. It reminds me of the sometimes heard philosophy of us all “dying into our expectations”, unless I’m misinterpreting. So did the 9/11 hijackers go to paradise? I hope that illustrates my difficulty with this plurality idea. Given that we’re all about to die (in the next 100 years at least, but really that might as well be in the next five minutes) and if anything awaits us we sure hope it isn’t hell or something that sucks as extremely incredibly bad as hell. So I seriously hope the Kahuna story is just an unfounded cultural myth, at least for their sake. That’s what I meant about that.


        1. Aloha, Bob:
          I did not use

          Aloha, Bob:

          I did not use your screen name on the show because, although I knew you’d know I was referencing you, I didn’t want you to feel singled out. In so doing… you felt singled out! lol Sorry. No, I did not mean to lump you in with trolls.

          I once did a Paratopia Live where I addressed a woman in the chat room by her screen name and gave an answer she didn’t like to something she kept repeating over and over. She unsubscribed and hated on me for years after on message boards/comments threads because I singled her out.

          I think the 72 virgins thing is interesting if for no other reason than it’s not a round number. So, I wonder if 72 has a significance encoded in it that the faithful are completely missing. And, I think I’d say, as a rule, that a belief going by a book is vastly different than direct experience. If a direct-experience-nature-culture says things work a certain way in their land, I tend to believe them nowadays. That doesn’t mean that the entity-interface they use is literally real–although it may present itself as such. But it might as well be at that point. I think just as the sun bakes different parts of the world differently based on altitude and shade and go down the list… perhaps there’s a metaphysical version of the physical. Different quantities and qualities of invisible forces that shape and sculpt the inhabitance. Animals and insects, too. They behave differently here, for example, than the East Coast. Perhaps losing their need to fight predators evolves them or allows them to express themselves differently. Whatever the physical cause, is there a metaphysical counterpart? (We ask that about everything concerning humans, why not extend the question to the land, air, and other inhabitants? At least that’s my thinking now.)

          To the use of the volcano and the telescope on the mountain and things like that…. Here is the part that’s hard to see: Just as a Westerner may maintain that service to Pele taking precedence over the “need” for geothermal energy is the product of a cultural bias, so is that “need.” The scientists’ want to plop down a mega telescope that defies the law on how tall structures can be here, on a sacred site, on a major fresh water source, and pull energy away from everyone else to power this thing to learn something about deep space without even asking the community because science good, belief systems silly… is criminal.

          And it may be hard for us to see those examples as criminal because we are a consumer culture. Consuming is our norm. We take and take and take. We deforest and kill those living in that forest because they’re in our way. Their beliefs are silly. But stripping Earth of everything we need so we can have the things we want–and overpopulating so that we need more and more and more, and anyone in our way is in the way of necessity and progress… is a mantra that is killing us all. Hawaiian culture isn’t creating the need for geo thermal; Amazonian tribes are not creating our “need” for lumber. Our unhealthy, unbalanced take-take-take consumer mind is the whole of the problem.

          And here’s the resulting fork we find ourselves at: Do we want to be right or do we want to be alive?

          It seems to me that nature cultures live in relativity and by-the-book cultures live in absolutes. Maybe that’s the best way to put it. We can say that their gods are bologna, but so are ours. And furthermore, so are the people writing the rules who were rational enough to abandon those books to write their own.

          Anyway, that’s my point of view. I hope this makes sense. I guess the Twitter version goes like this: I’ll take silly irrational over psychotic rationalizations any day.

          1. One more thing:
            I hope you

            One more thing:

            I hope you don’t take this to mean that I’m talking about you. I’m talking to you about my responses to large, general issues and on the screen it can look like I mean to argue with you. This is why we need more off-screen conversations in life.

          2. What stands out to me most
            What stands out to me most about your latest post, and this is one of those intangible things like the god in the volcano, is that I can feel your energy from it. It seemed to crackle as I read it, no lie. Maybe that just means this discussion helped inspire you to write something great, but somehow your meaning and passion came through clearer here IMO than anything on the subject I remember from the show, even though all the piece parts have been there.

            Quick reaction, 3 things:

            First is I believe I get what you said and what you’ve been saying more than you might think. Like I don’t doubt that Lopez and others sensed an energy of the volcano and they call it Pele, and that it’s real in some way (even if I have doubts that there is an objective Madame Pele). I have felt energies in some places and certainly have felt communion with animals at times, so I at least have some sense of this, but I also have concern that cultures add layers through story telling that may veer into fantasy, which might steer us away from truth, not toward it.

            Two is I still feel that there may be a slant of idealization on one side and vilification on the other side in your expressed POV, while I also empathize with your words and your passion about it. Like you, I don’t want it to seem like an argument, and if the discussion sometimes seems like debate from me I’d like to think that it’s in the spirit of pursuit of higher awareness, not a game of mine is bigger than yours. (IOW, I think we’re sort of agreeing?)

            Three is I would never argue “our god is better than their god”, never ever anything like that. In fact I was just thinking this morning in bed that one of the main drags of “Western culture” is that our religions and god concepts are the absolute dreariest, life-sucking, spirit oppressing, paranoia-inducing mind-fucks imaginable. Was that too harsh? Anyway, it is a great failure, and when combined with modern technology of destruction I have significant concerns about our survival. That’s neither an argument for atheism nor against my hopes for Western culture, but maybe is advocating for detachment from any structured religion or prescribed path, while not then veering too far off in the other direction of a sort of militant rationalism. That takes a kind of bravery of thought that I think most people I observe don’t seem to have, yet I’d like to believe (with some evidence I think) that more and more people (including Western people) are approximately in that space or at least heading there.

            Good night and out from NJ because it’s bed time here.

  13. Regarding the significance of
    Regarding the significance of the number 72, there are many references to it, including numerical, mathematical, religious (Bible / Hadith), Esoteric / Kabalistic, Egyptian texts etc…but the root of these, I am guessing, may come from the astrological fact that the Earth rotates by approximately one degree every 72 years, or maybe from the numerical perspective that there are 72 primes below 360. Also from an esoteric point of view, the depiction of Leonardo da Vinci’s ‘Vitruvian Man’ describes a five sided figure…and many of the internal angles in a regular pentagram are 72 degrees. But who really knows, the significance that has been subsequently attributed to it?

  14. I am interested by your
    I am interested by your comments about Native Hawaiian spirituality, and the idea that one cultural frame of reference (or “technologies”) may exist and work for one set of peoples alongside or separate from those of others.

    Clearly you are attuned to the Hawaiian / Kahuna “frequency”, and somehow this technology is how your greater soul can communicate and “work” with you.

    I am immersed in the “technology” (the parentheses are because I have yet to find the right words to articulate what I am finding) of the the Ancient Egyptian. I am a white Australian male, but it is the Ancient Kemetic (i.e. the Ancient Egyptian) that resonates with me and that helps me unravel the great mystery of living on this earth.

    A few years ago whilst on a visit to New Zealand, I was on a beautiful lake with amazing, massive trees lining the shore: I found myself wondering about the goddess Nut, who is the sky goddess from the Kemetic pantheon. “How can I wonder about Nut?”, I found myself questioning, “when I am in New Zealand . . . shouldn’t I be feeling or thinking about a Maori goddess . . .?”

    The conclusion that I have drawn is that the “lense” that works best for me is not a trivial, random choice, but a discovery of what resonates with my soul (and all aspects and dimensions of it: in Ancient Kemet the concept of soul singular is foreign). It is not a tool or computer program simile but a gift. I am sensing it’s the same for you with the Kahuna.

    Friends of mine would have me believe that the questioning (and, I guess, discomfort in embracing) of this is because of the dominance of our monotheistic culture and the obliteration of polytheism that it has wrought.

  15. Ok, 72 virgins, cultural
    Ok, 72 virgins, cultural sensitivity, and all that stuff…Being female, that one has always bugged the hell out of me, and one thing I do try to do is get to the bottom things, while also attempting to understand others belief systems and keep an open mind with as little judgment as possible (Being human, I do fail, and often, but try to stay the course) The Koran, as well as The Bible and other religious texts are subject to translation and interpretation, as well as point a view based on a particular sect of that religion, and out and out dogma. Apparently there is even disagreement among scholars and Muslim clerics about that translation of 72 virgins being what we consider, well, 72 virgins, and if the number 72 is mentioned at all ( a few think it has totally been mis-translated and the text actually refers to raisins, not virgins!). But if you are recruiting young men to be terrorists in the name of Allah, 72 virgins will do. Or 3 or 10, or 100.

    Indigenous cultures are the same, and there are even some points of contention between the Lakota and Apache nations over the White Buffalo legend, and even the long history of ancient Egypt saw changes in deities and beliefs over thousands of years. Gods came and went, split off into two or more deities, had male and female aspects, got combined into one from many, etc. From Hawaiian guests that Jeremy has interviewed, some belief systems and legends there may even vary from family to family.

    As Mikhael states, discovering what resonates with your soul is probably correct, but along with that I would include the Wiccan Rede of “And it harm none, do what ye will.”
    I tend to resonate with various belief systems, depending upon the place, the moment, and even the kind of living things in the environment. I also tend to see the connections of a much broader web that includes all of these elements that we have been discussing. And while I do not like it all, on some level, I love all of it. Trying to explain it to you all in this moment is even hitting me on a deep emotional level, and I am beginning to tear up a little…Carry on.

    1. Great post, Cosmic! Raisins,
      Great post, Cosmic! Raisins, I love it!

      1. Raisins are fine until you
        Raisins are fine until you find out that one virgin costs 7,200 of them, at which point you say to yourself “I think in my next incarnation I’ll be a Buddhist.”

        (please excuse the misogyny, I take shelter in artistic license)

  16. Jeremy and all,
    This series

    Jeremy and all,
    This series of comments/conversation has been marvelous. There is so much to think about and appreciate in each. I resonate with lots of what has been shared here.The posts show others do too.

    Contemplating and deep inner listening (not mind…not sure what is is called) to that which people have been shared is a real treasure. Not just on your shows and Whitley’s shows… but assuredly on all of them. For that i thank you and Whitley and your guests and the people of this community who are an amazing and talented group of wise ones.

    For me, the experiences which can be called “psychic or something” cause i don’t know what the correct wording is… have been a part of my life as long as i can remember. To be honest, because of that and that my 3 siblings also are more “talented” in these things than i, it is normal. I never spoke about it with my siblings because i spoke once to my mother about one experience and she admonished me not to tell anyone else. So i, being so very young, thought that meant everything that is “not within normal” is not to be told.

    That didn’t stop experiences from happening, and all the ways that this in integrated into my life. I am sure Cosmic and others who have a lifetime of experiences, would say the same. Why does that matter? Because we live based on our experience of life -which may be thought of as “just like everyone else.” Until we become adults and find that not so, as well as the negatives when sharing some things. Still… i think i am just like everyone else. The specifics vary in quality, depth, etc.

    Everyone lives in more than 3D because that is what all these experiences are. I spent the first 60 years of my life trying to find others who also lived with ” esp, psychic, mystical” or whatever name you want to call it – just so i could be “not different and keeping it secret.”

    Obviously, i spoke with my siblings about this, only after we were adults… and found each has their own “gifts” and there is a great deal of variation. From there, i figured everyone has gifts and whether they realize it or not, doesn’t matter. They live with that reality despite what others say, or the culture says, or books, or religions, etc.

    Soooo…. i have found the essence (for me) is that this energy/ability/gift is and always has been part of being human. Not always accepted by science or cultures… and many have died because of it…like “witches”. The native peoples of any place on this planet, seem to be more willing to accept these gifts and allow those whose gifts speak to what is going on … to take leadership and are respected for their use of their gifts. This is why i have resonated with the things on this site which speak of such gifts.

    It is also why i have followed a religion as part and parcel of my reality… because i “know” from experiences, that there is much truth in it. However, there is much that isn’t so much … and i figure everyone has to work these out themselves. I try to live in such a way as to do no harm to any life (including this beautiful home, Earth) and fail way to often. I pray for others who have no idea i even think about them. My knowing is that we are all One… and that is so deep, so good, so true and so beautiful…. which is why i, like Cosmic said of herself, get emotional when there is such sharing at deep levels on these shows. Being part of this community, is mostly learning, understanding, and just enjoying others in conversation. It is great… and i beg you, Jeremy, Whitley, and listeners, to continue to share, to learn, to grow, to question, and love … that is a gift beyond my ability to speak.

    Thank you all.

    1. I agree with you not so much
      I agree with you not so much dreamer, this thread in particular has been great, though it’s difficult to respond to it all. Your post reminded me of a genuine psychic experience I had, and I’m not a lifetime experiencer at all, my experiences have been more of a mystical nature, but not everyday psychic, so this one experience really stands out to me, and I’d like to share it with you if you don’t mind.

      I live in NYC and there’s a particular area called Jackson Heights, in Queens, that’s known for its Indian restaurants. It’s a very busy, crowded area. I was there one day out for Indian food and it was typically crowded, hundreds of people walking about, etc. As I approached a corner, I saw a girl standing there. The moment I looked at her, I immediately knew three things:
      1) She was not from around here, and I knew what State she was from (which I forget now)
      2) She was on some kind of religious mission
      3) She would talk to me

      As I approached her, she indeed began a conversation with me. I don’t remember the details and specific back and forth, but at some point she told me where she was from, and it was the State that I knew she was from already. The conversation only lasted a few minutes, and I tried to make it as positive an experience as I could for her (without actually being interested in her religion).

      That was the end of it and later I told a friend of mine, who’s had many more ‘psychic’ experiences than me (I’ll tell you one of his below), and he said to me, “Oh yes, the eyes tell you.” and that struck me as true, that I seemed to ‘know’ these things about her the moment I looked into her eyes, from 30 or so feet away.

      It’s strange how it didn’t feel ‘abnormal’ at the time, even though I’ve had very little experiences like it. The ‘knowing’ felt perfectly natural and normal.

      The other experience of my friend occurred in a back woods area of Ohio. He was wandering through this wooded area when he had the thought that if he goes in a certain direction he’d see something that no human being had ever seen (these are his words) he went in that direction and after a short time he said he saw a Goddess, thirty or forty feet tall, standing there. I don’t remember any other details like how it looked, how the experience ended or anything. I don’t think he said there was any interaction or communication, he just saw it.

  17. While these experiences are
    While these experiences are interesting I think we are missing the point. It could be that these phenomenon are occurring to shock us out of our complacency or tunnel vision. For each individual the experience needs to be custom built. Requiring the significance to be completely individual to her or his own understanding. As I heard Jeremy postulate once it is not the way the message is delivered, but the message itself that needs to be looked at and debated. Just the appearance of these occurrences demonstrate that there is something more going on than meets the eye, nudging us to try and discover a deeper significance for life than just the every day struggle for survival. I think probably everybody has experienced some kind of unusual phenomenon; some ignore it, some embrace it, some examine it and try to understand it, and some deny it.

    Since I have had some minor experiences of my own, I have always believed in Whitley”s veracity. He is also human and, I’m sure like the rest of us, has probably made mistakes. Regardless whether the ideas presented in The Key are Whitley’s own or the prompting of an alter intelligence, the ideas presented are profound and worthy of examination. The fact that the holocaust denied us the understanding of gravity and that it was not a punishment but a consequence of our actions is significant. We are indeed the author of our own future. The fact that evil is the intentional denial of the right of every soul or lifeform to thrive and fulfill its own potential is something we all need to take to heart. Perhaps another way of putting it is that evil is the absence of love or compassion. If it is true that we are the creator of our own destiny, then we do indeed need to stop worshipping ourselves and start being kinder to ourselves. Perhaps it is now time to cultivate a new understanding. I thank Whitley as I think The Key is one of the most significant and beautiful books I have ever read.

  18. I ordered the Key when it
    I ordered the Key when it first went to print, it definitely had an impact on me since I found a lot of the things stated by the Master to feel very truthful and more real to me then anything else I had ever heard. I was always fascinated by the Master, I wanted to understand the nature of this being more, I’ve contacted Whitley with questions about him in the past and he has always answered my questions concisely and honestly, though hearing all the negative feedback he has received from people I sure hope I didn’t incidentally offend him with some of my questions in the past. 🙁 Anyway hearing that their could be more entities that seem to have some sort of similar nature is a shock to me, and very intriguing. The being with the doctors mask seems like a very familiar idea to me, like something I heard but I can’t quite put my finger on it yet… great show though overall, it gave me lots to think about. Thank you very much!

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