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In this, the second conversation with an experiencer named "Shawn," we get into his visitor encounters that seem to be about love on the one hand, yet provoke great fear on the other. Perhaps, through this discussion, we will discover why.

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  1. “When Love is a concept, it
    “When Love is a concept, it transcends all other concepts. When Love is a feeling, it transcends all other feelings. When Love is a relationship, it transcends all other relationships. When Love is an identity, it transcends all other identities. When Love belongs fully to me, I see that it belongs fully to all. When Love encounters difference, difference becomes insignificant, yet discovers its ultimate significance.”

    “What is transcendence?”
    – “Transcendence is transformation.”
    “What is transformation?”
    – “Transformation is transcendence.”
    “What is Love?”
    – “Love is What Is.”

    This is what I imagine myself saying in such a meeting.

  2. Thank you Jeremy and Shawn,
    Thank you Jeremy and Shawn, for another insightful show. The seemingly necessary co-existence of Fear and Love is an issue that has dogged me. Some time ago, over a period of years, I experienced a series of visitations that I refer to (somewhat tongue-in-cheek) as incubus attacks. They involved waking to a dark presence — sometimes at the foot of the bed, sometimes overhead or beside – pressing down on my chest, filling me with intense fear, and giving the overwhelming sense of evil. All the hallmarks of so-called “sleep paralysis,” except that I was usually able to move, kicking up at it or scrambling away. This occurred during a period of turmoil in my life, when I was separating from my partner and looking to move into an apartment alone.

    About a year after I did make that move, during which time the terrifying visits continued, though at longer intervals, it happened again. But this time the being at the end of my bed was a being of light. I’m embarrassed by the stereotype, but it was male, with long white robes and hair that I think was also white. I felt the same rush of adrenalin through my body, but this time it seemed to move up, out of my body, in a rush up through my chest, and I had the thought, “This is Love/Joy.” The two words love and joy were inextricably intertwined. It was over in a second, and I was left with a sense of great Love, that I’ve not experienced again since. (Nor have I had any more incubus attacks.)

    As difficult as it is to fathom or accept – and at times I still don’t accept it – it seemed I was being shown that Fear and Love are two sides of the same coin. How can this be? The terror, and the sense of evil, are surely antithetical to Love. And yet, my experiences of the two in this manner were both opposite and the same. Living the question, indeed.

    1. Will you pretty please with
      Will you pretty please with sugar consider being a guest on the show?

    2. Understanding (and feeling on
      Understanding (and feeling on a deep level) that our reality is one of duality is important (and often hard to grasp in its totality.) Some people think that the opposite of love is hate, but the opposite of love is fear, so they are two sides of the same coin. Hate is one manifestation of fear…And joy is one manifestation of love. I agree with Jeremy: Bring your story to ‘The Experience.’ 🙂

    3. Interesting. I also had an
      Interesting. I also had an experience with a dark presence of what felt like extreme evil that came into my room while I was lying on my bed one evening. I must have been seeing with what I call my “spirit eyes” rather than my physical eyes because I could see it moving down the hallway around the corner from my room (though my face wasn’t even turned that way). It was the blackest black and there was a feeling of total evil. I was terrified. Years before, I had learned to imagine myself (or someone I was afraid for) surrounded by yellow light for protection when I was afraid. I automatically reached for this defense and as soon as I did, it was like my face was toward the light. It was very powerful, much more so than the darkness, and the fear was gone. At that moment, the darkness seemed to pounce and there was a struggle within my body that was kind of like white water rushing through me. I felt no fear– I instinctively knew that the darkness was weak against the light.
      The darkness pulled back but it was still there in the room. I could sense its frustration. Then it was as if it whispered a temptation in my ear, that the power of the light was my power. A feeling of indignation came into my mind and a thought that I should take on the darkness myself. I started to turn away from the light toward the darkness and it was like a small voice said, “No, don’t do that!”. I turned back to the light just as the darkness pounced again. This time the struggle was even more ferocious. Then in an instant the darkness was totally gone.
      I always thought of this as a sprititual experience and I still do, the message being that you can’t fight evil directly, instead you have to face the light and let the light (love?) be your focus. But also, since reading Whitley’s stuff back in the 80’s I began to see a connection between this experience and other experiences that I’ve had…

    4. Wow, you’ve had some real
      Wow, you’ve had some real encounters, Meta. I think it is no coincidence that you suffered no more night attacks since that angelic being showed up for you. I think maybe that is your Angel. You can call upon him anytime. And you can use that encounter with him as an anchor point, whenever you have any fear or doubt, just recall it. That goes for any angelic experience, for anyone. 🙂

      It is my observation that Love and fear are opposites. Fear seems to be the absence of Love, and when we feel Love, there is no fear. Interesting how when we are in
      either state, it is always Love that we want. And yet both states can be used as engines that can drive either positive or negative personal development. My feeling is that the Visitors seem to use both states to drive us towards positive development, to keep us vigorously moving forward in the mystery. Life is still a mystery to them too,
      despite their great knowledge and abilities. Maybe they want us to join them in the great mystery, the Great Question.

      And Jeremy is right, you should totally be on the show! The experiences you’ve described are fascinating, scary, and wonderful; and I, for one, would love to hear you tell them. And I’ll bet you have more stuff you haven’t mentioned. You might be surprised what comes up when you start writing all your experiences out. Talking with Jeremy is a blast, and it’s a real trip hearing yourself on the air. I got through my fear and did it, and I loved it! See how that works, what’s often on the other side of fear? It’s all love people! Everyone with cool (and not-so-cool) experiences to share should be on the show, you’ll have a blast! You know you want to. 🙂

  3. I was also attacked once by
    I was also attacked once by something. I was alone in my room and this ‘thing’ swooped down next to me, to my right. Its energy was hostile and overwhelming. My seeing of all this was not physical, I was ‘seeing’ it on some other level. Anyway, as it swooped down next to me, it seemed to be offering me what I would call ‘worlds of falsehood’ if I would surrender to it. I think it was trying to possess me. After seeing its ‘offerings’ all I wanted to do was to get the hell away from it, but my awareness seemed captured by its overwhelming energy. As unbelievable as this sounds, the only thing I could think to do to counter it was to go watch television, I needed something immersive to wrest my attention away. Its negative energy continued to harass me for some time as I sat watching television, I continued ignoring it and trying to pay attention to the television and eventually it went away.

    This experience did not arrive in a vacuum, it seemed to be tied to several things I was going through at that time, and an unbelievable synchronicity arose out of it which I’m hesitant to tell because no one will believe me, or at least interpret it anywhere near as I do.

    To comment on some of what was said above, I do not believe that we have nothing to fear but fear itself. I believe there are genuine hostile entities in existence whose life-principle is that of evil, and to believe they pose only imaginary threats is foolish.

  4. Thanks for the replies to my
    Thanks for the replies to my comment. Jeremy, I will consider being a guest and be in touch.

    To Steve44, in saying that Love and Fear might be two sides of the same coin, I do not mean to suggest that evil isn’t real, and that there’s nothing to fear but fear itself. I agree that there are truly evil entities and forces that pose very real threats. Evil doesn’t just dissipate when we realize that “all is love.” The brief visit I experienced from a being of light, after years of encountering pure evil, does not make me think the evil was imaginary or harmless. That, for me, is one of the things that make the seemingly necessary coexistence of Fear and Love so difficult to grapple with.

  5. Thanks for the clarification
    Thanks for the clarification AbsurdMetaphysician. While as human beings we can experience both light and darkness, fear and love, I’m not sure they are as interdependent as stamping both onto the opposite sides of the same coin. I believe as cosmic principles each can exist quite independently of the other, and there are beings who embody each to a surprisingly exclusive degree. This indicates to me that while they may be mixed in our human experience, there need be no eternal link between the two.

  6. Jeremy, Your interviews with
    Jeremy, Your interviews with Shawn are the best you’ve done so far, in my opinion. You ask great questions that indicate you have been thinking a lot about the experiences and meanings and connections between people. You are the first one I have heard say that taking the drugs, like Ayajuasca or psilisibin mushrooms or what ever is like a game cheat that gets you further in the game without teaching you the reality of the game. I have been thinking that for years (different metaphor, but same meaning). I know too many people who have done this for “enlightenment” and they are even more narcissistic in their interactions with people, more arrogant and less patient and realistic in what most people call their “real life”.

    I have had a lot of high strangeness in my life including the “invitation” of the visitors and Shawn is the first one I have heard who actually talks about the ability to refuse, which has been my experience. I found after reading Communion and the other books Whitley Stieber wrote about the visitors, that my greatest fear was being abducted and I never have been. No missing time, lots of lights in the sky, visitations, poltergeist activity, know stuff before “I should have”, ghosts, etc. I have had extra time once or twice, which seems like some kind of extra-dimensional event, I was a “guinea pig” in the military, many more things.

    I think more people have extraordinary experiences but never even realize it, they chalk it up to coincidence or their imagination because it does not fit their perception of how the world works. If Shawn had told that doctor, it could have been distressful for a lot of reasons. Most doctors, especially “the best in the field” tend not to want to hear about anything outside of their limited knowledge base or control. I think he did the right thing by not telling the doctor about his healing his son.

    I look forward to the next interview with Shawn.

    Thank you.

  7. JahaRa and Jeremy, I agree
    JahaRa and Jeremy, I agree for the most part about what you say about psychedelics, but I wonder if maybe they can have more value for someone who has had previous mystical experiences without drugs. I’m asking this because I’m in that category, and I’m interested in trying them to see if they can give me a ‘boost’, which I feel I need.

    I remember reading years ago that David Carridine had as many as 500 acid trips, and look how he died – by choices that do not exactly reflect much wisdom about life, but then there’s Graham Hancock, who uses Ayajuasca but emphasizes that one must work on what one is shown. I consider him an extremely intelligent person who is doing important work, and he has had some positive changes in his life as a result of his Ayajuasca experience.

    I’d be interested in both of your thoughts on this subject.

  8. Steve44,
    I grew up with an


    I grew up with an alcoholic drug addict father and lived in a community where psilisibin and qualudes were handed out like candy to junior high kids by their parents, so my perspective is definitely biased. I have known people who have used LSD, psilisibin & psychedelic drugs and I never saw any of them have a mystical experience. I have also known people who did the native shamanic dances and even though they had mystical experiences, it never enhanced their understanding of anything helpful (at least that I could tell, my gauge for that is how you treat others, how you take responsibility for your actions, so I am quite cynical about all of it).

    I think that we are all here for different reasons and experiences so my input should not sway you one way or another. Especially since I do have a strong bias. I see a purpose to all the psychedelic plants but I also see their purposes distorted and corrupted by people who make profit or are just looking for the next escape.

    The story about a very experienced guru being given LSD as an experiment to see if it would have a different effect on someone who meditated and had dmt experiences on a regular basis and the result that the LSD did not trigger anything for him seems like common sense to me. His brain was already trained to produce dmt at his will so there was no “trip” and no effect.

    I suspect that the shamanic journey is more meaningful to someone who is prepared for it rather than someone who is just looking for the next new thing. You are probably correct that someone who has had some experience but is not a guru type could gain something from using psychedelics with the correct respect and attitude.

  9. Thank you for the
    Thank you for the well-constructed response JahaRa, it’s valuable, as its served to shift my focus away from the substances and onto the one using them. That lesson is clear in your examples, nothing is really to be gained from them that we are not ready to gain, and in that case they may not even be necessary.

    1. I have a long, convoluted
      I have a long, convoluted answer I’d like to ramble about on this week’s episode, if you don’t mind.

  10. I would love to hear it
    I would love to hear it Jeremy. JahaRa’s wise response has really made me question my motivations. I think I was almost coming from a place of revolt against my own mundane state of mind, but something tells me that there are valuable lessons to be learned there, perhaps more valuable than a drug-induced push away from mundanity, and in fact that push may be seen as an effort to avoid those lessons, and therefore destined to be ultimately unfruitful.

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