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What is consciousness and why does it matter whether or not we know? The truth is that our most basic understanding of who we are and what our fate may be depends on the answers to those two questions, and in this week’s show Ervin Laszlo, one of the great thinkers and philosophers of our time, returns to Dreamland to tell us about the newest research into such things as whether or not consciousness lives only in the brain, and, if it is nonlocal, then what is the meaning of human life and the fate of a human being?

Ervin Laszlo is founder and President of The Club of Budapest, Director and Co-Founder of the Ervin Laszlo Institute for Advanced Study (ELIAS) and of the Laszlo New-Paradigm Leadership Center (Italy), Member of the Hungarian Academy of Science, Fellow of the World Academy of Arts and Sciences, Member of the International Academy of Philosophy of Science, Member of the International Academy of Systems Research and Cybernetics, Senator of the International Medici Academy, and Editor of the international periodical World Futures: The Journal of General Evolution.

Ervin Laszlo’s website is

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  1. A great show, thank you. The
    A great show, thank you. The paradigm of coherence will stay in my thoughts for a long time I think. Surely love has something to do with coherence.

  2. Nice change of pace. I’m
    Nice change of pace. I’m guessing you wanted this message out to align with the possibility of continued constructive disclosure. Some eloquent take home messages for me are insights such as: Our freedom when detached form the world around us causes mistakes in judgment and whats good for the individual whole isn’t the best for the entire whole. Contrast this with the Ayn Rand philosophy and you see the division in our current climate.

  3. Re: The children, should one
    Re: The children, should one generation subsume itself completely for the sake of the next? There has to be new ways of thinking about our reality. This is a monumental question. I think we need to break free of the semantics of language as a form of communication. I could spend hours trying to understand the meaning of the word ‘ Why’ ha-ha. The visitors are giving us subtle hints buried in all the forms of interactions we have with them. I believe I am in communication with them as I never could come up with the following on my own. To some the next question will seem nonsensical but there is an answer:

    Is it possible to balance a bowling ball on top of a nail? I know this sounds crazy, but these are the sort of questions THEY challenge me with…

    There is an answer, and it can be done, but the question remains; WHY?


    1. Hi Cyan. I propose that
      Hi Cyan. I propose that balancing a bowling ball in that fashion is possible. This is because Unity involves perfect balance. Another similar question may be: “is it possible for an alien (or anybody, for that matter) to “tightrope” walk across a laser beam”?

      1. Hey Mace, I was waiting to
        Hey Mace, I was waiting to see if anybody noticed my question before I posted the answer 🙂 I feel I was guided to the answer by the Visitors, not only because it took a few minutes for me to realize it (BTW: I get the definite impression that someone else is giving me these problems when they occur), but more significantly, the solution requires a new approach in your thinking.
        Here is the answer I got (from them?):

        .llab eht nips uoY

        Now for the laser beam problem, cool.

        1. Very nice solution. Maybe the
          Very nice solution. Maybe the Aliens can “tightrope” walk across a laser beam (they already walk through walls, after all). Seems like a magical or spiritual solution would be in order for the laser beam feat, I can’t imagine how they would do it otherwise.

          1. Mace,
            Preliminary idea, if

            Preliminary idea, if you keep the word ‘tightrope’ intact then that presupposes a gravity field is in effect. Because you can’t tightrope in zero-G. But if you substitute ‘Ride-along’ for tightrope then it would be possible to transfer information on a laser beam easily. Good problem, and I will give it some more thought. Stay tuned …

  4. Breathtaking show!
    Breathtaking show!

  5. Once again Dreamland has my
    Once again Dreamland has my head spinning. Thank you, Whitley. I wish more people supported your important work. Years ago I had a few Satori experiences during meditation where I heard a distinct voice. I’ve never really talked about them. Once a booming voice said, “All separation is illusion.” When Mr. Lazlo quoted Einstein as saying ‘all separation is optical illusion.’ and a phone rang I almost jumped out of my skin! Thought provoking show. I’m greatly looking forward to the audiobook of The Afterlife Revolution and all the great things ahead for the website.

  6. Fantastic. I’m going to have
    Fantastic. I’m going to have to listen to this again. So much to take in.

  7. wonderful show. kept taking
    wonderful show. kept taking my breath away. so many insights into so many aspects of my experience and inexperience. THANK YOU

  8. Thank you for this wonderful
    Thank you for this wonderful interview with Mr. Lazlo!
    So glad that the scientists are finally realizing what the sages have been saying for years.
    Reminds me of Mr. Taslo’s quote: “The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence.”

    As to Why? I still agree with the idea that the universe has a longing to know itself.

    I think the Seth material stated it best. Something along “Potential individuals, in your terms, had consciousness before the beginning or any beginning as you know it, then. They (you) clamored to be released into actuality, and All That Is, in unspeakable sympathy, sought within Itself for the means. ”

    For this to work, I don’t think “All That Is” has any more control over us, aliens, or any other being, than we do with our children. Meanwhile, synchronicities are increasing all around us as we evolve. I recently heard of a term I had never heard before; but describes well: mystic synchronicity. What we can do to help it along is to be more aware of it.
    where we go wrong sometimes is trying to explain it to others, as it always comes tailor-made for each one of us.

  9. Excellent interview, Ervin is
    Excellent interview, Ervin is speaking sensibly.The attachment to Unity may relate to entropy (Unity is essentially low or no entropy) and sense of time (Unity operates in a timeless state). All other separation energies are chaotic—dark chaos and light chaos. These damage the integrity of bodies and minds in the biological framework. Order is appropriately defined by Ervin as Unity, the interconnection of entities. The Universe may contain Unity at its core, but there may be planes beyond that also relate to Unity and Super Coherence. These may be important aspects of our journey in our home Universe. Tension is one attribute of interactive Yin and Yang energies that was not mentioned, which may culminate in a total lack of resistance once energies are fully connected. Life moves from tension to relief from tension. I believe in both a source for the darkness (which I call the Invariant) and the light. Light and dark are meant to be combined, in my opinion, and darkness is not evil if it is used properly to maintain connection and facilitate ordered flow. Darkness is a container for light, and light and darkness get commingled to form energetic, fecund patterns (energy cannot be lost, only transformed). With regard to Unity, no one is a “free” individual, all actions affect all elements of the whole. It seems these days people frequently speak and do things without realizing their impact upon the whole, and this behavior should stop if we are going to survive. The idea of the individual has been taken much too far, it is interfering with our evolution as a species and may invite disaster. Utilizing Unity can assist in the accomplishing of monumental tasks, we can move in this direction by how we live our lives. Thinking about the harm we are doing to ourselves and the Planet is the means to changing our attitude towards each other. UFO disclosure could help as well. Trust has to be instilled again, both trust of government and fellow humans. Prevarication and competitive exploitation is not beneficial.

  10. Most EXCELLENT interview
    Most EXCELLENT interview Whitley and Ervin Laszlo. Thank you for this. Also, I really liked your comments Mace.

    1. It was a pleasure listening
      It was a pleasure listening to this interview. Thanks for reading my comments. I also wanted to say that “total lack of resistance in a field” (which I believe is part of the phenomenon of Unity) may be what allows instantaneous communication between entangled particles and instant teleportation across distance.

  11. I think the notion of the
    I think the notion of the free Individual was introduced in order to combat overt slavery, for people to realize they have to take care of themselves. Also, that they are important. The imprisoned were set free, then received the keys to their own lives. That notion has been replaced with the egotistical narcissist, which appears to be even more of a threat to worldwide stability. Previously, it was slaves vs. the slave owners, now it is “every man for himself”, an unsustainable, precarious predicament.

  12. Ah…once again, although not
    Ah…once again, although not named in this broadcast, the Wisdom of Kabbalah was revealed by Mr. Lazlo. He touched upon just about every significant point of Kabbalah – the ancient science of the soul – which was first codified by teachers almost 4,000 years ago and predates any religion (including Judaism), philosophy or “mystic or magical” teaching. Lazlo is correct that modern science is only beginning to “re-learn” that which has always been there right in our face.

    Anyone searching for the answer to “What is the Meaning of Life” should consider seeking out one of the authentic Kabbalah centers and begin “re-learning” the wisdom therein. It is fascinatingly simple to understand, yet difficult to master. To start, I highly recommend: and specifically this wonderful video series:

    If you will indulge me, here is a tidbit, to the best of my layman abilities – Kabbalah teaches that the Creative Force is eternal and infinite and is composed entirely of the “Will to Bestow”; that It has always existed and is driven solely by the “need” to give love and light. To fulfill Its “need” this Force created a vessel with a “Will to Receive.” That vessel is the entirety of Creation from the smallest particles to entire universes (assuming there are more than one). But for the created vessel simply receiving is not enough. Ultimately, this Will to Receive needs to achieve an equilibrium (or equivalence – Lazlo uses the term “coherence” but it’s the same principle) with the Force of Bestowal so that whatever it receives, it bestows back to the Creator, establishing a sustainable loop of mutual guarantee. For the most part, almost all Creation is already in the equilibrium. The only “hiccup” is the small penultimate piece of Creation represented by sentient beings (Earth born humans and whoever else out there falls into this category). This final piece is the only part that has free will and can choose to receive for itself alone or to receive for the benefit of the system. All the suffering we perceive in Creation, from our limited perspective, is caused when we choose the former over the latter. Kabbalah equates this struggle as between egoism and altruism. Kabbalah then teaches how to re-educate the sentient ego (Will to Receive) so that it seeks to achieve pleasure not from receiving only for itself, but pleasure from “bestowing” back to the system (Love thy Neighbor as Thyself), and thus come into equivalence with Creator. Humanity will eventually reach this equilibrium – either through willing embracing it or by the sheer magnitude of pressure of Creation that will force it to accept no other option (we already perceive this growing pressure as climate change, economic instability, endless war, etc.) The key is to help the equilibrium come through the path of “life”, not the path of “pain” or “death.” Seeking out this science is the first step you can take.

    1. Thank you for your essay,
      Thank you for your essay, Pssqd. I imagine that the light is what induces one (referred by you as “pressure”) to eventually accept the reality of altruism and mutual coexistence, but also the influence of darkness, which would be recognized as a safe haven. The power of Creation cannot be permanently discarded, when parts are interacting over long durations they are disposed towards eternity. Equilibrium can be a difficult state to achieve in modern times, because of exposure to pollution in their many guises. Not many have succeeded for this primary reason.

  13. @Mace
    In Kabbalah, I believe,

    In Kabbalah, I believe, “darkness” is basically the ego rejecting the light and seeking to only receive for itself alone. Forces, perceived by such an ego as negative nudge it’s attention back to the light and towards spirituality and altruistic thinking. Indeed, “darkness” is a safe haven for the ego to hide in.

  14. Pssqd : I distinguish between
    Pssqd : I distinguish between negative, chaotic darkness and darkness that fosters and nurtures. The Spirit of Gaia has a lot of darkness, she is part of the creative feminine power. One can feel her gentle energy when one comes into contact with the Earth. Women are responsible for the birthing of neonates, which is a very significant aspect for human community, and thus Unity. What is important is the phenomenon of Unity, not an exclusive engagement with Light. I would agree that when darkness is unbalanced and chaotic it is problematic. However, I see a trend with organized religions in that they tend to discount the Feminine in their attitudes and perceptions, regulating it to lower class. They promulgate dedication to the light as the ultimate goal because it serves the male dominance paradigm. I see darkness as an intrinsic and indispensable part of Unity, and that darkness and light are meant to marry and intertwine. The parasympathetic, emotive nature of females is a strength. The problem is that many people don’t trust women, and that is another problem for humanity to address.

  15. Pssqd: I see beneficial
    Pssqd: I see beneficial darkness as an energy that simply has a propensity not to be as active as the light. That’s all. It is a state of being. Do you consider trees to be part of malevolent darkness? The are not moving most of the time. Do you like relaxing? Remaining still in your body means not being so active. Again, darkness is not bad if viewed from these perspectives.

  16. @ Mace
    First, I just want to

    @ Mace

    First, I just want to reiterate that I am a layman when it comes to Kabbalah and not the strongest messenger for its value. Hence, some of my previous wording may be misinterpreted. I encourage anyone curious to check out the links in my first post and find out more for themselves.

    In reply to your posts above I will say that it is my understanding that:

    1. Kabbalah is not a religion. I can’t emphasize this enough. It is a science designed to help one understand the purpose of life and how the soul connects to the upper creative forces. It may appear to be religious because it was introduced to the world through ancient Hebrew texts (including the Torah), but the religions came later…they are in fact a devolution or distortion of Kabbalistic principles.
    2. Male and feminine energies in Kabbalah are perfectly balanced. In fact, just last night the class I participated in was all about how the two are meant to be balanced and when they are not – conflict and crisis ensues. Many confuse the idea that the Creator is only masculine – but this is a misnomer and an artifact of how the ancient Hebrew language is formulated. Since the Creator “bestows” it is often described in the masculine while the Creation, that which receives, is often described in the feminine; together a perfectly balanced system (two that are really one). But to be safe – one should not get hung up on anthropomorphizing these forces. (Tidbit – a Hebrew name for the Creator, especially used in first chapter of Genesis, ”Elohim” has the same gematria (numerical value) for the Hebrew word for Nature, “haTeva” – meaning that whenever in the Hebrew Torah the word Nature is used – it is discussing the Creator – and vice versa. They are the same. Your “Mother Gaia” – the same.)
    3. I never meant to imply that “darkness” was “bad” or “evil”. In fact, it is ultimately good and serves a purpose. A basic Kabbalistic principle is that all things come from the Creator – “There is none else beside Him” (don’t focus on the “Him”) meaning that everything we perceive or feel is sent to us from the Creative Force for a reason. Even what we perceive as evil (there is no “devil” or “Other” – these are terms for the ego when it rejects the upper force) is sent to us for a reason.
    4.) Re: rest, it is the natural desire of our ego to do so and we only move because the ego perceives we will gain something better if we do so. The perception of something better (or less painful) is sent from above to move the creature back into ultimately seeking connection to Itself, which when finally attained, is the ultimate pleasure.

    Again, my weak attempt in a few paragraphs to explain a wisdom that is thousands of years in the making. I urge anyone interested to research it – I am in no way qualified to teach this. Just trying to awaken an interest.

  17. Pssqd: thanks for your
    Pssqd: thanks for your thorough answer. I was indeed under the impression that Kabbalah was part of Religion. I watched part 1 of the video series, the basic overview. I have some doubts about the authenticity of the material contained therein. I’d like to discuss what I heard. First of all, I am uncertain about the number of worlds above the barrier, they seem arbitrary. 125 steps up the ladder is also an arbitrary number. I have no way to check if these planes or steps are fictional (besides joining up), the truth could be there are a million planes, and 10,000 steps (should I accept the ability of someone who counted them?). The exact number of planes and ladder steps mentioned could be a mere hook to pique my interest, to lure me in. It seems like the presentation of the exact number of planes and ladder steps seems to convey a distinct “whoa effect” for the listener, which could mean they are trying to impress someone with arbitrary numbers that appear to ring true. I also heard associations with the Torah mentioned in the lecture, and that book is something I wish to avoid. The claim that the Kabbalah is a “Science” is also debatable. There is a caveat in this: “what if I learn tools that have no function in the afterlife, I will be perplexed”. I’ve noticed that often Jewish people tend to intellectualize subjects easily, and the idea that one should be confounded by the Kabbalah is another exemplification of this. I don’t want to engage in too much pondering about spirituality, I want to experience it. I don’t want to get lost in thoughts. I realize that the lecturer is trying to hook people in and gain their interest, but I am wary of hooks. Unfortunately, the human mind can deceive itself into believing that reality conforms with a belief framework one has adopted. I have some doubt about secret information as well, it could be secret for the reasons given, or secretive because it wants to give the appearance of veracity. The correlation with mysticism is there, even though the lecturer denies it. Finally, that there is a teaching lineage goes against my sensibilities. I might be wrong about all instances I mentioned above, but to me these are warning signs of falsehoods.

    Light and dark have an attractive force between them, for me this is ostensibly linked with Unity. At least the Kabbalah and I agree that there should be balance between male and female energy in this regard.

    Btw, have you seen the movie “Pi”?.

  18. You got to “step lightly” to
    You got to “step lightly” to succeed 🙂

    I agree that a gravitational field would be in operation.

    1. Lol Mace, beautiful answer! I
      Lol Mace, beautiful answer! I bow to your erudition. No other answer is necessary.

  19. Mace,
    I deeply appreciate you


    I deeply appreciate you taking a look at the first video. If the subject matter does not resonate with that’s fine. What matters is you looked at it and gave it some consideration. That’s all anyone can ask.

    Just to quickly touch on some of your last response. When the kabbalists use words, they are not speaking literally but are speaking in a code that is meant to awaken thoughts and ideas in those who hear them, and not to be taken as fact. This is to bypass the ego that will do everything it can to reject the concepts offered. If you were to go deeper into the wisdom, you will come to understand this better. So when kabbalists use terms like 125 steps or 600,000 souls we are told these are more about qualities rather than literal quantity. Even I am not quite ready to fully comprehend that yet, but I just let the language flow over me. So for you, the “steps” seem to awaken in you thoughts that there is a some “hook” being offered. If for you that is a negative, then perhaps the message is this is not for you. Maybe some other time, or never. It’s all good.

    As for your reaction to “Torah”, again kabbalists say that the written Torah is not to be taken literally as religions may demand. They teach it is the epitome of coded texts and not an accurate historic record at all. The “story” laid out is more about the growth and development of one’s soul than the lineage of a people.

    As for the film Pi, I recall seeing it years ago and know Kabbalah was a central theme, but don’t recall any details. I checked out Wikipedia to read the plot synopsis. May be worth watching again.

    Again, thanks for delving a little into this and for indulging this fellow traveler on the road to Unity which ever path gets us there.

    1. You are welcome. Thanks for
      You are welcome. Thanks for the discussion.

      Tell you what: I saved the link to favorites. I may review some of the later videos another time. Have a great weekend.

  20. What a fascinating thread!
    What a fascinating thread! Great comments!!

  21. What a great show. Ironic
    What a great show. Ironic how humanities quest to understand nature has led us so far from it at the individual level. We have come to a place where we have endangered, not nature, but ourselves.

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