Debra Jordan Kauble (Kathie Davis of Budd Hopkins’ Intruders) goes deeply into the question of how mankind is going to face the fact that somebody is here. As former Undersecretary of Defense Chris Mellon has recently offered the opinion that the most probable explanation is “aliens,” more official acknowledgement might not be far off.

Back when Deb was with us in July, nobody in the official world had suggested any such thing. But Chris is a bellweather and we can expect more such statements later.

So how does the average person, totally unprepared and unconcerned, face this and deal with it? A big part of the answer is going to come from the close encounter community, and as Deb is among the most articulate and thoughtful witnesses in that community, she has a lot to offer.

Deb’s life experience has been a long trajectory from pain, fear and confusion to deeper understanding of what happened to her and her family, what has happened since, and what it means to live with this strange new reality that, as she says in the show, may go far beyond the typical assumptions about what aliens are and what contact means.

Deb’s website: DebsHome

You can get Deb’s book HERE.  

Budd’s books, including the new reissues of Missing Time and Intruders, are linked HERE.  

Dreamland Video podcast
To watch the FREE video version on YouTube, click here.

Subscribers, to watch the subscriber version of the video, first log in then click on Dreamland Subscriber-Only Video Podcast link.


  1. We live in the center, we’re the speakers for both human and non-human intelligences simply because we can communicate with both. I think our path in this life is to be interpreters for both sides.

    Wonderful interview!

  2. Hi Whitley – great interview with Deb, she’s always enjoyable btw why isn’t there a closed captions options on your YouTube

    1. I’ve suggested that before, with a link on exactly how to do it… but I’m guessing it is just a time issue, I don’t know.

        1. I don’t know about anyone else but subtitles / closed captions are not available for me on the Dreamland videos, either using the Android YouTube app, the Android Chrome browser app, or using Chrome browser on Windows 10, from the UK. I even tried using a VPN, set to one of the US states, just in case it was a regional issue but still nothing.

          I also tried the exact steps as described in the linked video but when filtering for Subtitles / Closed Captions, the Dreamland videos are removed from the search results.

          Maybe YouTube are not auto-generating them, because the videos are quite long?

          1. Author

            It’s something you’d have to take up with YouTube. We don’t have any control over it.

  3. …whoa Whitley, that license plate story…lol…yikes!
    I have to say you two, the perspective on various societal reactions and nuance, saying whatever they think is beneficial to their individual argument(s). That’s the real yikes and honestly perfectly accurate.
    So, do you think this is the reason nothing has been truthfully said all these years? Rational people/visitors behaving rationally?

  4. Protection: Let us remember that Soul protection is superior to physical protection and if we have Soul protection through truth, compassion, and love then we have a true treasure.

  5. Thank you again Whitley for another pretty grounded interview. I really, deeply feel that the Watcher’s are able to easily cope with our politics. I feel that they are extremely capable of presenting to all our nations that they are separate and beyond our little ego issues. The last part of the conversation about the possible mass extinction we are facing, is tragic and I wonder with Covid if the herd is starting to be thinned. We might survive a transition if there’s fewer of us. But, I wonder since we are so entwined with this planet, if we are being prepared to change with her somehow. She has a soul of sorts as well and we’ve made an agreement to express ourselves through her. We have to change together. In respect to doing a show about wealthy cowards planning their escape from being human? Personally I wouldn’t bother giving them anymore air to breathe on your show than they’ve earned. Our goals, for most of us here is to face the coming winds— not run for cover. It just feeds a list of 75 comments about conspiracy theories which isn’t healthy at all.

  6. Have some shared experiences here, will just mention a couple though if I may, I too experienced what is termed “visual migraine” as well as Deb & Whitleys’s term for the same. It appears like a prism before the eyes which seemed to me like a kaleidoscope effect. Secondly the sensation Deb has had of needing to hold on to something solid lest she jump into another world. I believe she was experiencing spontaneous OBE or out of body experience (when I was a kid I struggled with this). I spoke to my own kids early on about this so they would not be fearful or at least feel free to talk about it. Each one of them amazingly to me at least, have at some time or other reported the same & unlike myself have been very casual about it . It’s good to share, as platforms like Whitney’s and guests like Debbie provide us with such insights to our own experiences and I am so very thankful it is here for us.

    1. That’s one of the only things that i can consciously remember (from my childhood) from the experiencer spectrum. (But my mother had many more). But it was definitely not an obe. I got up in the middle of the night to pee at about 8 years old (in the 80s in Manchester, England). I don’t know, maybe i just had a fever, but it felt like my inner world and the outer world were on 2 different time speeds one much slower or faster than the other. Also around that age there was one or more times when in our bedroom, floating in the air, after dark, was some sort of moving flowing geometrical pattern. It might have been a spirit rather than a visitor, though.

  7. OMG! I also have ocular migraines and macular degeneration. In fact, about 20 years ago, I had a routine eye examination and the doctor became very upset because he said there was what he described as a laser-like burn all around the optic nerve. He sent me to a specialist immediately but no cause could be determined. The burn was so close to the nerve that even the tiniest increment closer would have caused blindness. No human has the ability to create this. I also describe the ocular migraine as an old fashioned Las Vegas neon revolving lights situation that begins in the center of my eye and grows. There is constant movement. Slowly, the band of light (like an old fashioned theater marquee) begins to float upward and vanishes above my field of vision. I’ve never had a brain scan so there may be white spots for all I know. I never connected all this to the abductions.

  8. I did see a flash…I also felt/heard a sound/frequency that briefly was so bad that my jaws hurt. The video was over about 5 minutes ago, but I am still experiencing the frequency, although it’s diminished.

    …And someone ended up with that license plate, right?

    Deb has the perfect, calm presence for the path she is on…I hope she’s back soon!

  9. So, Whitley, I started looking for the flash at 1:08 into the interview. First I hear what sounds like Morse Code, long and short pulses. Perhaps an audio problem but I am only telling you what I heard. Then not absolutely sure BUT for me it looked like a couple of really dim flashes next to Anne’s photo on the wall just a short time after the sound thing??? Earlier I had listened to the audio then went on to check out the video.

  10. As a child in the 50s I had a recurring dream of standing in my front yard looking up at the night sky full of spaceships and flying saucers, not fighting, but amassing for battle . Since the late 1990s I have also had ocular migraines . They are not painful just an interesting light show .

  11. I enjoyed the interview with Deb very much as always!!! When Intruders first came out and I began reading it, I realized the area of what Bud called Copely Woods was probably the woods near where I lived during the years 1965 to 1967. Though this was before Deb’s time, I drove the White River Road on a regular basis. I had no incidents, but did have a very powerful dream during that time period.

  12. The idea that a classic physics approach cannot solve the issue of consciousness is timely as I saw the documentary “Aware” last night and was pleasantly surprised to see the PhDs in their respective science fields say they same thing! What’s more, the patient studies at John Hopkins with controlled psilocybin had a lot of cross over with how encounters are described by guests on UC. Clearly some people do not need anything to open the window to a next level of perception, but it’s uncanny how the descriptions are so similar.

  13. This ocular migraine is a funny thing. Seems to come and go. Oddly, here in Britain there is no requirement to report it to licencing authorities if you suffer from it.

    On the rare occasions it comes on while driving I simply pull over for a bit until the Aztec ZigZag patterns have stopped. You can’t get much done with that going on for sure.

    Another odd thing, it only seems to happen outside, never inside? Can’t remember the last time I experienced it but I’m thankful it’s not a common occurrence.

    I sincerely hope that I don’t have macular degeneration as well. How would I tell? Google here I come.

    1. VON HAUSENBERG, first I want to say this is exactly the pattern I have when the (Aztec ZigZag patterns ocular migraines occur for me). I have always referred to them as THE SILENT MIGRAINES. They do not happen often and what seems to trigger them is either emotional STRESS or sometimes physical stress.

      ALSO, while I posting this comment I want to include a thought. While Whitley and Deb are talking about her dream about the apparent red and green battle in the sky, this is where what sounds like Morse Code, long and short pulses occur then followed by the dim flashes of light.

      1. Until I read your post Carollee I had forgotten about what happened last week. I was at work, working away and over two or three nights had powerful and disturbing dreams. I went back to sleep one night then awoke to hear two prolonged electronic beeps right inside my head.

        I just haven’t felt like myself of late, constantly finding fault with situations yet also feeling as if I am bursting with a strange energy. Looking at world events I have a strange sense of foreboding yet one that will be of great relevance to the next stage of my life. I’d be surprised if I was the only person here feeling that way.


    2. There is no requirement in the USA to report ocular migraines. People simply see a doctor to figure out what is happening to them. Also, all of mine occurred indoors without warning. They are about as welcome as a serious leg cramp while having sex! I do agree with one commentor that they do resemble Aztec designs constantly moving. I saw a specialist after my first ocular migraine because I feared it was a sign of a detached retina.

    3. One more to the list… I’ve had occular migraines since I was fifteen. With me, they start with a small blind spot, that enlarges and starts to shift off to one side, whilst transitioning from the initial spot to a large ‘C’ shape. Eventually it goes out of my visual field. The visual disturbance itself is like incredibly vivid, fluttering kaleidoscopic triangles, almost Aztec-like, as others have described. It happens in both eyes at the same time but predominantly over to one side. After the visual disturbance has run its course, I get a cracking headache on the opposite side. During the migraine I often have difficulty getting my words out, so normally just stop talking, get some paracetamol and shield my eyes from the light until I can see again. They are triggered in me by stress, bright sun light, flourescent (strip) lights, soft cheese, and sinus problems.

      One particularly bad one, as well as the visuals, both my arms felt like they were vibrating really hard, to the point where I could have sworn that someone sat next to me should be able to hear them! I felt like I was slipping down a plug-hole and just as I thought I was going to pass out, it started to fade… And for about an hour afterwards, it was like someone had turned up the colour on my vision to 200%…it was pretty trippy!

      Anyway, medical bulletin over 🙂

  14. I had the same vision/ lucid dream of the “shards” as Deb puts it when I was a child. I used to weep in my bed with longing for the center of the lights when we are all back together.

    1. I had what seems to be the same vision when I was around 17. There was an underlying math/physics structure to it all including something like equations in addition to the overpowering feeling of oneness. I too longed for the return as the fear of death was gone. However, even in the worst of times I stayed here. 🙂 I didn’t end up in the hard sciences, but rather became intrigued in the connections between art and science. I feel like that experience, in addition to contact, helped sync up the hemispheres of my brain more. It has been a very beneficial experience.

  15. Regarding the flash, that others saw, I would characterise it more like a shift in brightness. There were several of them on both sides of the video, to different degrees throughout the discussion…but to be honest, I think they are more likely down to the camera shifting aperture or gain, compensating for general shifts in overall brightness in the room.

    The morse code-like sound interference was pretty interesting though.

  16. I thought what Debra was saying about body language was interesting, as I’ve always been particularly good at reading it. I have to be careful though, as I have a tendency to talk to people as if they have verbalised their body language…and most people don’t know they are telegraphing a lot more than they realise. Naturally combining the verbal and non-verbal is the next worst thing to reading someone’s mind!

  17. Hi Whitley. In the interview you mention at one point that the mirror world you’ve experienced appears to still be in an Ice Age. I wonder if perhaps in that world the primordial catastrophe discussed by Santillana and Von Dechend in Hamlet’s Mill, the catastrophe that resulted in the precession of the equinoxes, never occurred. Which perhaps explains why ours is a fallen world, and the mirror world isn’t. In the vision that I shared four years ago under my alias of BrotherMark, which I believe to have been a vision of that other world, it was quite cold outside….that is why the little girl who I believe to be my daughter in that world was wearing pajama bottoms under her little blue dress. Considering what is going on right now in our fallen world, I’m glad she is in that other one, where the dark forces encroaching on this planet can’t get to her.

    1. Author

      I thought this exact thing when I saw it. It was clearly still in an ice age, meaning that the catastrophe that severed us from our true past never happened to them.

      1. Interesting that two people who’ve experienced that other world both had the same intuition vis-a-vis Hamlet’s Mill. On a related note, since the poster below references Philip K. Dick, I’ll mention that I think it is possible that PKD also experienced the mirror world, though he didn’t describe it as such. In his semi-autobiographical novel VALIS he mentions a series of dreams he had had in which he was living in northern California in a large 1940s-style house, and had a beautiful blond trophy wife and a sports car, a lifestyle completely different from what he lived in the waking world. So his “dreams” had that anachronistic quality (a house decades out of date) that seems to go with sojourns to the mirror world….but at the same time PKD also seemed more materially successful in that world, as if the people there better appreciated his genius as a writer. I wonder if there might be many, many people in this world who have made the crossover into the mirror world without realizing it….like PKD they think they’ve just had some really vivid dreams.

  18. Hi, this comment is not about the episode although I’m looking forward to it. These are just some impressions I’d like to express to you Whitley.

    Back in the 90s I first heard about you in Robert Anton Wilson’s Book ‘The Cosmic Trigger’ where he had a bit of a go at you. Incidentally this same book introduced me to Philip K Dick, who’s now a favorite author of mine (his Exegesis is a formidable work to contend with, existentially speaking imo) but I digress.

    At first as with many prominent folks in the ufo field, I wasn’t sure about your story so kept you in the proverbial S. Friedman grey basket. Over time however, it struck me that you have a more sophisticated take on the phenom than most, and, much like PKD in fact, you seem capable of considering various approaches to explain your experience(s) without committing to, or entirely disregarding any of them, which to me is rather commendable from an intellectual standpoint.

    Over the last year or so (I subbed here last month) I’ve grown to have great respect for both the dignity with which you’ve withstood what sounds to have been like a lot enmity, ridicule and negativity as well as your overall intelligence and insight concerning metaphysical matters. The latter has become more apparent to me the more of your podcasts I listen to, although some guests I enjoy or find believable more than others.

    I’m (to my conscious knowledge) not an experiencer myself; just a guy with interests in psychology, spirituality and other high weirdness. Those Olandar book club discussions are some of my favorites from the specials area, though I don’t believe I’ve read any of the books covered other than possibly the Rilke one.

    In any case, thanks for all your work, and love to all of you fine people here in this little community. In some ways I count experiencers as the forerunners of humanity. God bless all of you beautiful people. In the best and truest sense of what beautiful means.

    I don’t know if I’ll be back to read any responses to this, should there be any, I’m absent minded and tend to be sporadic far as online participation goes on top of that, so, hopefully you read this and know that I’m grateful for everything you’ve done.

    With love and kind regards from Canada ~

    1. Author

      Thanks, Jon C. RAW was such a great writer, but, like anybody, he could only swallow so much that was new to his thinking. Glad he introduced you to PKD. Rich material there.

  19. I agree with Sherbet about brightness. Enjoyed the show. Deb is always a great guest.

  20. Could there be a connection of this “high strangeness, UAP phenomenon and paranormal happenings” to the recently publicized “Havana Syndrome”? I have been following the news on it for about a year and Sunday Night 60 Minutes aired a fascinating piece on it. Electromagnetic Pulse it is currently being called. Does anyone have a thought on this?

  21. Author

    I have wondered about that. If so, then some foreign power would have back engineered an off-world weapon, I would think. I don’t see the visitors getting involved in politics. That doesn’t seem to be their direction.

    1. I also don’t see The Visitors getting involved in politics or religions as both you and Debra agreed on. But your comment about a government back engineering a highly advanced other worldly weapon makes sense. Sometimes it seems to me that humans excitedly play with fire before they understand that it can burn!! I totally enjoyed this podcast and thanks to you both!

  22. Well, I know that DREAMS can be a challenge to understand since most of us do not know what, where or what inspires them. ALSO, knowing they can simply come from what we are trying to process throughout our day BUT this was such a weird dream experience, I want to share it. HOWEVER, before going to bed last night I did watch, “FINDING YOUR ROOTS” Henry Louis Gates, Jr. accompanies Broadway stars Leslie Odom, Jr. and Nathan Lane as they meet a cast of inspiring ancestors hidden in the branches of their family trees. I also read the article from ‘LATEST NEWS’ …..’ The Warzone.’ Did both of these things create the strange dream??????? 

    DREAM: I WOKE UP SEVERAL TIMES LAST NIGHT WITH THIS DREAM. IT DID NOT SEEM TO BE GOING ANYWHERE AND KEPT REPEATING ITSELF. Mostly I am with people I cannot identify and trying to convey a message? There is something I need to make these many people understand (I cannot remember the message, maybe at this point in the dream I was not supposed too)? 

    I am looking at what looks like a normal house but not my home. It has white lattice work covering the bottom part of the house so no one can look under the porch. A man appears standing next to the lattice work and I ask him who he is and what he is about. He says, “WE HAVE BEEN BREEDING FOR A LONG TIME NOW AND WE ARE YOU.” (Thinking he is referring to all humanity)? “We are now ready.” (Thinking he means, ready to enter the world)? (It feels like there are MANY people wanting to emerge from under the ground)? 

    HE IS THE ONLY PERSON I CAN IDENTIFY IN THIS DREAM AND HE IS, (((Legolas))) the most famed wood-elf hero of the Elves. In The Battle for Middle-earth, he appears as a non-affiliated hero who joins the Fellowship. In The Battle for Middle-earth II, he serves as a hero for the Elven race. Legolas | Diamonds✧ –

    I wake up from this strange dream and the clock reads exactly 3AM…….

      1. SHERBET UFO……. WOW! No, I did not know this. When at the end of the dream and I saw the man, I recognized him as Legolas from the movie. THANK YOU FOR THIS INFORMATION.

        “Legolas is a Sindarian Elf…also known as the (((Grey))) Elves.”

  23. I love Deb! (and you as well Whit) … always an outstanding discussion when you two meet! Unknown Country is the BEST!! Thanks to both of you for that informative and thought provoking talk! When you two talk – I LISTEN.

  24. I just watched this video last night on March 6th and all I can say is WOW! A moment of epiphany and purpose came to a greater understanding when Whitley commented that our mission as abductees may be to help those who are transitioning in death make this transition in a peaceful way. This has been my own personal experience in the past nine years and I believe to be how I will continue to move forward in this life. I want to thank you for this discussion with Debra and I look forward to hearing her in the video chat room.

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