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Normally, magic and the occult are presented in the media either as something to be snickered at or as a supernatural wonder and, often, danger. But there’s more to it than that, much more, and in this searching interview with Carl Abrahamsson, the author of Occulture, Whitley explores the deeper resonances of the age old practices that fall under the rubric of “magic.”

Their conversation about how art and magic intersect is powerfully mind-opening, and the way that Carl explains how magic actually works in the modern world, transforming our lives on a daily basis, is brain-bending.

Whitley talks with Carl about his powerful recent contact experiences and what they mean, and what Anne Strieber’s statement that the visitors are “inward beings” means.

The discussion about William Burroughs, who used to go to Whitley’s cabin in an attempt to meet the visitors, is just one example of how remarkable this show is.

This is a perfect example of why Dreamland is alone at the top of the long list of podcasts discussing the supernatural. There simply is no other place in the world where you are going to get information like this.

Please note that because of all the complimentary information that Carl and Whitley share, this is a discussion rather than a strict question and answer edition of Dreamland.

Carl Abrahamsson’s website is
You can also reach Carl on
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  1. Really cool, discussion! I
    Really cool, discussion! I remember when Anton LaVay and his ‘Church of Satan’ was in the news. At the time, he really seemed pretty tame to me, and not evil at all (Although I understood why he was so problematic for most people.) He looked a little on the scary side, but I don’t recall his belief system as being particularly sinister—plus he was very much the showman.

    Also, a big thanks for encouraging us all to acknowledge our darker natures. If you can’t explore that dark side of yourself, and ask serious questions of yourself, you are missing out on a huge opportunity for personal growth.

  2. I loved this show and would
    I loved this show and would be very interested in more like it that explore the modern manifestations of occultism. Can he come back again and elaborate on his meetings with the likes of Burroughs and La Vey?

  3. As usual, this episode was
    As usual, this episode was interesting and far-reaching, touching on a number of groups and individuals. I only wish that Whitley would have gotten his guest’s book title right instead of misnaming it at least seven times. It’s “Occulture,” not “Occu-culture.” With a copy of the author’s book likely at hand, it seems odd that Whitley would keep calling the book by the wrong name.

  4. After the physical encounter
    After the physical encounter I had, I was left with deep scratches on my arm. They scabbed heavily and took months to heal. Right before my encounter I was thinking about a woman and she received scratches on the same arm in the same spot too.

  5. Sometime last summer, I
    Sometime last summer, I believe, Whitley said he was traveling to Italy to meet with an alchemist. He mentioned he would report on his meeting in the future but nothing has been mentioned about this since that summer. I know that I for one was looking so forward to his story.

  6. Chauncey, I second that.
    Chauncey, I second that.

  7. Whitley and Carl
    Whitley and Carl Abrahamsson, I really enjoyed this interview and want to post a comment.

    On Friday night I had a family Birthday Party at my house. A little girl (two years) went into the room where I have a desk and chair. Across the chair I have the Communion Tee Shirt designed by Steve Neill. After she saw the shirt she refused to go back into the room and said it was scary. One of the adults took her back into the room and ask her to point to what was scary. It was the face on the tee shirt.

    This is the second time it has happened. The first time several years ago and it was a young boy. He had the same reaction. I MUST REMEMBER TO PUT IT OUT OF SIGHT WHEN THE KIDS COME. So, my question is……Why would this be so scary for the little girl when she simply loves the movie COCO?

    What am I missing here? A group of us watched COCO yesterday and I am pretty sure if I was a child the images in the Coco movie would been a much more frightening experience.

    1. Carollee,

      Interesting questions, but I’m not sure that ‘Coco’ can be compared to to the face on the cover of ‘Communion.’

      I’ve seen ‘Coco’, and you might call it ‘high frequency’ in terms of colors, light, and sound. It has a lovely story accompanied by an uplifting music score, and most of the beings on the other side have actual human eyeballs. 🙂 My grandchildren loved it, plus we live in Texas where many cultural elements in ‘Coco’ are familiar. Visually, ‘Coco’ is a confetti feast for the eyes. It sparkles, and regardless of culture, its themes of life, family, and those common things that bind us together, like music, are universal. It is a celebration of life never-ending, and love and remembrance play a huge part (I’m very sure that Whitley resonates with this). On my shelf right now is a ‘spirit’ cat made in Mexico, vibrant with flowers and colorful whorls on its body. While it doesn’t look exactly like a real cat, it’s not scary at all. (Personally, I felt more fear watching ‘Bambi’ as a kid, and I think a lot of young children might agree with me.)

      As for the face on the cover of ‘Communion’ you may also want to look at the context in which the face was seen by the little girl. She went into that room where she probably felt safe—until she saw something unexpected. The way the face is rendered on the cover of ‘Communion’ is in neutral and brown tones. The eyes are striking…they do not appear human. The eyes in ‘Coco’ may be floating in what appear to be empty human skulls, but they are human, and also display a depth and connection missing from the ‘Communion’ face, and it is often said that the eyes are the windows of the soul.

      I know that many people in this forum have expressed how seeing the face on ‘Communion’ was disturbing for them, but I did not experience it that way at all, and I have always wondered why. I first saw the face displayed on the cover of the book in a book review in our Sunday paper all those years ago. I still have the original book that I purchased in 1987. I went to the bookstore within hours of seeing the book review and purchased it. What I saw on the cover was not scary, but elegant and intriguing (And in some ways to me, beautiful). I couldn’t wait to read the book and learn about Whitley’s experience, and also learn more about ‘her.’ I feel connected to her as many others have claimed, but somehow my relationship to her is different…And once again, I don’t know why.

      The next time my grandchildren are over here, I may take ‘Communion’ off the shelf and see if, and how, they react. Maybe just ask, “What do you think of this picture? How does it make you feel?”, and take it from there.

      1. Cosmic, thank you for your
        Cosmic, thank you for your comment. I would love to read what your grandchildren have to say about the face on the cover of ‘COMMUNION’ especially their first reaction to it…….AGAIN, thank you for this post.

        “The next time my grandchildren are over here, I may take Communion off the shelf and see if, and how, they react. Maybe just ask, “What do you think of this picture? How does it make you feel?”, and take it from there.”

  8. Andy 1111,
    I guess we won’t

    Andy 1111,
    I guess we won’t be finding out anytime soon about Whitley’s trip to Italy and his visit to an alchemist.

  9. It turned out that he wanted
    It turned out that he wanted more privacy than I thought. I am so sorry about that. Suffice to say that he is not a practicing chemical alchemist, but has an enormous collection of alchemical incunabula and is a real scholar. I hope that I can get him to come on Dreamland. He is quite fascinating.

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