Dr. Hank Wesselman is a noted paleoathropologist and also one of the great shamanic teachers of our time. Here we listen to him tell us of a life of rich adventure in the world of the spirit. He believes that mankind is at an incredible moment of change, and that a whole new way of living is going to emerge on the other side of this dark and difficult period. In this exciting interview, he tells us the truly extraordinary story of how a noted scientist gained a mastery of shamanic practice. His great life adventure is one of the most inspiring and empowering stories we’ve heard told on Dreamland in a long time, which just now is VERY welcome!

Visit Hank at SharedWisdom.com where you can buy his books and courses and other materials.

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  1. Excellent, I will have to listen to it a couple times more. I have an almost unnatural disdain for fundamentalist religion. I think Hank hit it on the head.

  2. Whitley and Hank Wesselman. This interview is such a pleasant surprise.  I had to go to my small book shelf to find ‘SPIRITWALKER’; it was purchased right after the book was published in 1995-96. When I opened the book, on the first page, I had written (page 226) so I went to that page and here is the marked paragraph.


    Chapter 16
    Eighth Journey
    The Lady and the Tiger

    Page 226
        Keala had said, “The life-force is a process rather than something material, and yet everything in the universe, material and nonmaterial, is ultimately an aspect of it. A pattern exists within the web of life, and the life-force can inbreed or outbreed to achieve the design. In this sense, the life-force has its own direction, its own volition. Each living thing is part of the great pattern, ano’holo’oko’a, and each being is thus filled with kumu, with purpose and direction, even if that purpose is unknown to the individual person—–or worm.”

  3. Really enjoyed the interview and would like to know more. Would you please give the exact link for the year-long shamanic visionary circle course? Thanks.

  4. A great interview with much to think about. Hank is extremely intelligent, but sometimes he uses his mind to justify his mythology. I do not think this is intentional, but rather his high intelligence confuses him.

    There is historical evidence that Yeshua (Jesus) lived and also that the gospels were written by scholars many generations later. Reincarnation was removed, other things were added. The gospel of Mary and other books were destroyed. His name, Yeshua (Joshua) means Jah (YHVH) is Salvation. It is absurd to believe that some cryptic Egyptian name disproves his existence.

    Thought forms are the idea one has about things, as opposed to the thing itself. Shamanic cultures experience a living universe (the totality as a sentient mystery) which is much more than the complex scholarly idea of animism. Synchronicity and Presentiment from the living mystery guides the shaman.

    Screen memories are ‘thought forms’ which very intelligent people use to cover up the sentient ‘spirits’ they encounter and to fit them into their belief system (personal mythology). Even extremely high sentient beings should not be confused with the sentient mystery which is one.

    The great Hindu sages teach that one must set aside the mind to become the indescribable reality of being. This does not imply setting aside intelligence, but rather knowing the mind is like the body, a temporary tool or vessel, observed by luminous consciousness. Intelligence forces one to identify with the vessel and ideas, rather than the spaceless and timeless observer of the play.

    Again I must say I enjoyed the interview because it stimulated much thought. I really liked what he said about Faith either leading one to collapse into fundamental ridged beliefs, or to expand to greater consciousness (endless growth). The path is endless learning and no mortal has ‘answers’ because words are illusion and experience is real. Yet to share our thoughts can help us all grow…

  5. Hi Janine, One of these may be the online course link you are looking for…

    $297 – The Shamanic Path of Re-enchantment:

    $1197 – Navigators of Light:

    $497 – Visionseeker:

    … But to be sure, it would probably be best to send them a message (although apparently it might take a while to get a response) …

  6. In the spirit of keeping an open mind I’d like to point out that part of that mentality is maintaining a healthy skepticism and ability to offer critique. I admit that I have not read Mr. Wesselman’s materials but there’s something about him that doesn’t quite sit well with me and I’m not entirely sure what it is – call it an intuitive feeling. Part of it is the whole Western Shamanism thing – particularly when words like ‘Master’ are bandied about in some context. Part of it is his demeanor. In addition, while I’m hardly against someone earning a living, I find doing so under the rubric of imparting spiritual traditions at ‘workshops’ that, in some cases, cost over $1k to be at least slightly suspect. There are some reasources out there that offer a critical view of him and ‘Plastic Shamans’ in general (a term worth understanding for any seeker out there) – I will not post a link because I have no idea if it will be flagged. As always be cautious and don’t simply take things at face value because a person presents himself as having academic credentials which implicitly grant him or her as having a unique ability to translate indigenous wisdom to Western audiences.

  7. You are talking about cultural appropriation–that is to say, the belief that a person raised in one culture has no right to engage in another. This is related to the “woke” movement, which used to be called “political correctness” and is a form of authoritarianism.

    I tried to find a reference to Hank Wesselman as a “plastic shaman” but failed, although I am sure it is out there somewhere.

    Personally, I found the interview engaging and conducted with Whitley’s usual tact, subtle insight and gentle prodding that induces the guest to expose just a bit more of themselves than they thought they were going to.

    Wesselman comes across to me a sincere man whom I sense is, at 79, struggling with his mortality and his meaning toward the end of his life. I think Whitley was aware of this, too, and you can hear it as he draws Wesselman out of himself by showing enthusiasm for his ideas, then asking deeper questions.

    As to cultural appropriation, I have mixed feelings about whether or not he is guilty of that that. It is can be a form of colonization, such as when new agers violate American Indian sacred traditions, essentially stealing them from their owners.

    But I just don’t see that here. Wesselman seems deeply respectful of the tradition he is exploring. He is clearly not playing games and knows his stuff.

    A couple of weeks ago, Whitley had a western shaman on the show, Angel Millar, who is part of the Masonic tradition, and he was criticized for not recognizing the feminine side of deity. Of course, the craft tradition is essentially masculine, but nobody who commented stopped to think that they were engaging in any sort of cultural disparagement for criticizing his tradition.

    And yet they were. We have to be carefully self-aware in order to dismiss others, I think, especially when, like Wesselman and Millar, they are making an effort to bring something forward and preserve it that would otherwise disappear into the past and be forgotten.

    1. My aim is not to further ‘woke-ism’ with respect to indigenous traditions or anything else – I’m about as far from ‘woke’ as you get, frankly. What I am cautious about is the commercialization of spirituality and spiritual traditions and the possibility that there is a ethno-cultural context that might be lost in the Westernization of ‘Shamanistic’ practices and moreover the possibility that, as a consequence, there may be meaning or even some important element that is lost or grossly misunderstood. This is what I’m primarily concerned about with the idea of the ‘plastic shaman.’ Add a financial gain component to that and it gets even worse.

      I believe it is a reasonable concern to voice against someone who claims to be imparting ‘ancient and traditional’ spiritual knowledge as Wesselman does principally because the average seeker has no way to effectively evaluate these claims. Claiming ‘authentic’ knowledge is a much-used claim in these circles to convince people to part with their hard earned money

      I do want to emphasize the distinction between what is my opinion or gut feeling about Wesselman and making a claim that he is an outright fraud. I have no idea whether the latter is true or not and I am the first to admit that I have little familiarity with his material. My sense of perusing his ‘Navigators of Light’ course was that it is very ‘New Agey’ – for me personally it is a bit of a red flag but some may be more attracted to that than others. My main goal here was to encourage a little bit of caution and discernment when dealing with these topics.

      Incidentally, I find the use of ‘cultural appropriation’ as a modern pejorative term to be an abhorrent practice of modern ‘woke-ism.’ It is an attempt to demonize a normal part of cultural interaction between different societies that has been occurring since there have been human societies. The fact that those being accused of it are virtually always persons of European descent further cements my skepticism and leads me to the conclusion that it is used for specific socio-political purposes rather than as a genuine criticism.

      1. Author

        In this day and time, we are at risk in so many different ways. I’ve seen what has happened to many Native American ceremonies and traditions, and it ain’t pretty. To first subjugate them, then colonize and marginalize them, THEN steal their traditions–that is tough stuff for sure. I do agree with you, though, about the need to be careful when it comes to teachers like Hank. I had him on because I’ve known of his work for years, and it’s very deeply realized. It is not for me personally, but I think his approach is going to have validity for some, and the object of Dreamland is to search in as many different directions as we can without going totally off the beam–which is all too easy to do these days. I almost had a guest on recently until I saw their podcast and discovered that they were pushing the Plandemic video and COVID denial. Not for me! But the person’s beautiful website is all about spiritual search. COVID denial is not part of spiritual search, though…

  8. Author

    Wow, Secret Harmonies, that’s a very thoughtful post indeed. Thank you for it. I would never have anybody on whom I had reason to believe was abusing another culture in any way. I pass on lots of New Age stuff for that reason. However, I also agree that the “woke” movement has become authoritarian. Anger has caused them to drift in that direction. They’ll find their way back, I hope.

    I’ve heard that some of them are “cancelling” me because there isn’t enough about race on my website. This is why I wrote a journal about my activities in the civil rights movement. But this site is not about race or politics or any of that. It is about inner search and exploring life with the visitors.

    They only have one issue that some of us would consider political, which is the environment. In my experience, they are indifferent to everything else in our political world. They may not be, but I have not seen any direct expression of interest.

    I know that they prefer free souls because they concentrate their activities in free countries.

    1. Whitley, as I mention in my response to Secret Harmonies, I was voicing concerns based on my gut response to Wesselman rather than making any specific accusations. The truth is that I have no definitive ‘proof’ one way or the other to be able to say. Moreover, I will be the first to admit that my gut feeling may very well be wrong. But, being cautious with those claiming to impart truths is never a bad approach – provided it is done in a fair minded way. We are all fallible. I don’t believe you would have intentionally brought on someone who was a profiteer in any fashion – if I did think that then I wouldn’t be listening to your show.

      I was particularly impressed with, and wanted to explicitly thank you for your deflection of Wesselman’s attempt to bring politics into the discussion. I come from the opposite side of the political spectrum than most of your listeners and I’ve found that the ‘seeker community’ (for lack of a better term) tends to be very warm, welcoming, open, respectful and tolerant of all peoples – except, that is, for conservatives and worse still ‘Republicans.’ I find this contradiction very troublesome.

      In a world that seems to want to inject politics into every possible conversation I value the chance to be able to discuss ideas with those who are also on a seeking path – including those that may not have the same socio-political convictions that I do – without having the constant distraction of political conflict. After all, ‘politics’ is a consequence of being incarnate as a human being in a particular time and geographical location – I doubt whether it has any applicability or meaning in the next world.

      1. Author

        I try hard not to let this site become politicized. So I expect my guests to keep their politics to themselves. I have tried to follow the lead of the visitors in this. Their only concern that we would call political is the environment, and we probably shouldn’t be politicizing that.

  9. What a treat to listen to this guest! Though I may not be on board 100% with every point that’s ok–it’s ‘for your consideration’. Plus I loved his voice…something relaxing and hypnotic about the way he speaks.

  10. In my experience, I’m not particularly concerned with following the lead of the visitors. I’m concerned with following the lead of The One. As a side benefit, I do think that this is what the visitors are focused on, as well. As much as I will take on board anything the visitors are sharing with me, it is to the degree that it harmonizes with what The One is sharing with me.

    This covers politics, and about a zillion other things.

    I experience The One (or The Presence) as being most focused on this particular question, “I have given you the gift of Life. How are you using that gift?”

    And my answer to that question – across this lifetime and all others, and all Life in between – has come down to that one matter:

    Am I allowing myself and the rest of Creation around me to thrive – or not? The One itself knows the Truth – as to the balance of this Thrive/Not-Thrive question. That Truth is fully accessible to my own Knowing – as far as I am able to face it and accept it.

    That access is called walking into the Light.

    The Light of The One feels to me to be an Ultimate Energy of Love-Truth/Truth-Love. You don’t experience one side without _everything_ to do with the other. They are inextricably linked!

    And in that Light, they are _both_ Total.

    For my process, unraveling the intricacies of “getting it right” – these zillions of questions of right-action in every sphere – are resolved simply by a willingness to take it back to that Light, receive the measure, and make adjustments as needed.

    If something came to me, during one of those checks, where it was clear, “Hey, it is time get radically political about this particular matter” – then I’d dive right in. No other consideration is necessary at all.

    I believe real Freedom exists not through where one lives, or what one’s politics are, but through the willingness to LIVE as close to that Light as possible, and acting accordingly. This keeps the window of Infinite Possibilities wide open. Right-action can be expressed through ANY sphere of existence. Pure joy, accessible everywhere.

    Short version: Get it right with God. Forget the rest. 🙂

  11. I enjoyed this interview and remember being in awe of Hank’s experiences when I read his book back in the mid-90’s. The interview brought me back to my wife and our experience on Hawaii. We lived briefly on the Big Island in 2007, 8.5 miles north of Hilo. We had just moved all our belongings from the mainland and settled into a housesitting job for a year when the land itself worked to push us out. We had a number of strange events but the most regular was the uncomfortable feeling of being intently watched at night. One evening, when I felt this, I caught a glimpse of a man in tribal clothing in my peripheral vision. We found out that previous caretakers had also moved out early, the neighbors all had bad feelings about the sickness of the land, and the owner’s husband had died on the property of an aneurysm just before the building was finished.

    Before we made the decision to break the housesitting agreement and leave, we had put out feelers to have a local shaman come to the property to see what might be done, but concluded the land belonged to the spirits residing on the land. These were powerful spirits but certainly not the helpful allies discussed on this show that provide support and protection.

    My wife fell off the back of our moving container two days before we were to board a plane and go. She said it felt like someone grabbed her leg and pull her off the trailer bed. Seven weeks later, after relocating to Portland, she had emergency surgery for the traumatic brain injury from that fall that has affected her health ever since.

    1. Hello Kirkland,

      Your comment has prompted me to share a similar experience I had back in 2004. I was helping a friend do shamanic work on a city in the Berkshires that had a great deal of stuck energy and was taking a dip in my pond when something grabbed my ankle and pulled me under. I was alone at the time. My friend, a man, was at his townhouse in Manhattan that day. While climbing the stairs, something grabbed his ankle and he fell down the stairs. We both had identical burns on our arms from the stove as well. It was a very strange experience and we both believed it was push back from the clearing work we were doing at the time.

      1. Thank you. I believed my wife’s experience and we felt we escaped a dark land and avoided further trouble.

  12. I am reminded of Whitley’s recent podcast conversation regarding him being shunned by former friends and allies , as he openly revealed his “ visitor” experience and he was and is being perceived as “ deamonic” by some in the UFO , govt and “ spiritual “ community stuck in their Western mind . Hank is a remarkable amalgam of science and spirit manifest
    The forces at work are real , terrifying and “majestic” at the same time
    By filtering the visitor experience and Faery lore and other phenomena through the lens of our rational minds will not work
    Whitely and Hank are unique and many other “ leaders” in these “ gray” areas will always be ridiculed and mocked by small minded “ haters” I learned a lot from listening , opening my mind
    And remembered – “ many are called but few are chosen “

  13. This was a fantastic interview. Thank you for introducing me to Hank Wesselman. I’ve read two of his books now, and plan to read more. I like the concept of being a “shamanist.” Seems to fit the path of many in this forum.

  14. Sad news: Hank Wesselman “crossed into the realm of the ancestors” on February 15, 2021, in Hawai’i, after a brief illness. Hank’s beloved wife, Jill Kuykendall, who is also a gifted shamanic practitioner and teacher, was at his bedside, holding his hand, as he took his last breath.
    Hank loved Whitley and Anne’s book, The Afterlife Revolution. He recommended it to others. and he read a few passages from it to those of us studying with him in the shamanic course that Hank mentioned in this Dreamland interview. He was very moved by the timeless, powerful love story — that love is eternal, and that consciousness and the possibility of communication remain after death of one’s physical body. Hank and Jill knew this already from their decades of deep explorations and journeys into other realms.
    I sincerely hope that Hank and Jill (whom he called “My Lady Jill”) will continue their divine sharing for a long, long time, as Whitley and Anne continue to do.
    Aloha and Mahalo, Hank.

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