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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7190
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 5:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

After I posted about Robin's death on the "What's Happening" thread, there have been a number of good posts there about depression. I decided it's worth starting a thread that will remain.....at least for now.

CBS Evening News: Williams suicide highlights problems of treating depression

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjKjfZP5zJo




OK, to stretch credulity to its max.......

Even if Robin is really alive and well, and laughing all the way to the bank, the bottom line is that a conversation about the epidemic of depression (and other mental illnesses, all of which have depression as a major element) is now being talked about more widely.

So I decided to start this thread.

With this loss of Robin, we are reminded yet again, that drama is all about the human condition.

There's a good reason why the "logo" of drama is this:

http://media.sdreader.com/img/photos/2012/04/17/Tamekacomedytragedy.jpg

Thalia, the muse of comedy, and Melpomene, the muse of tragedy

http://www.ehow.com/about_5056817_name-comedy-tragedy-masks.html



Simple and complex as it is, the other side of comedy is tragedy, and Robin has taught us this like perhaps no other.

Robin, with all his sensitivity, his empathy, his perceptiveness, his mental agility, and his love, had a heart too tender to survive, unscathed, all that he had been through.

He brings the truth home yet again, that all the fame and money in the world cannot heal some wounds.


Willful ignorance is rampant. In our world today, there is almost NOTHING we cannot learn about VERY EASILY, with time and effort. And with the internet, it is immeasurably easier than ever before in history, to be informed and educated about ANYTHING.

In this day and time, with all the availability of information, anyone who tries to claim that there is no difference between “sadness” and depression is being WILLFULLY ignorant.

Being willfully ignorant gives people the “freedom” to distance themselves from any obligation or responsibility for the suffering of their spouse, their children, other family members, their neighbors or friends, or their fellow man.

The people who CHOOSE to dismiss the suffering of others, can then claim to be justified for their lack of willingness to help in any substantial way. They can justify their lack of empathy and compassion, their selfishness, by playing the “bootstraps” card.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7191
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 5:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Message to the Depressed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUHcc7ipGt0
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7192
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 5:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

We need to talk about Depression!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvbWKwxA6YY
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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blue
Senior Member
Username: jennyblue

Post Number: 1569
Registered: 3-2007
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 11:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

First, let me admit? I am not good at suppressing my anger. Strong emotion was/is considered a weakness in my family (as were tears) so I was odd man out I guess. My mom, master of reverse logic, would always be the one to tease the emotions out of me (right before she punished me for them). But still, I think, ultimately, she was effective and got the required result. I think the suppression of strong emotions -- even when around family -- is emotionally crippling. I found that a lot of people, particularly people who have power over you, use emotion against you as if they are somehow superior to you or that there is something wrong w/you if you raise your voice -- even when you are feeling good about something -- but that's a side-issue. My point is that I believe emotions are less trouble when they are released as one has them as opposed to suppressed. When they are suppressed -- they become more intense/build up with time and are acted out in inappropriate (tho often culturally acceptable) ways.

I was depressed/suicidal on/off for a long time until the early 80s. The first time I remember getting close to trying to commit suicide, I was about 7. In the early 80s, I was shocked into (no other way of putting it right now) into understanding the cause of my depression. and it turned out that all the anger came from things which were below my consciousness -- things that happened/were happening to me that I didnt know about/remember. Once I recognized what was/had been happening (even tho it was in bits and pieces) -- and, in my own way, asserted myself and began to defend myself making clear my intent in an open and more conscious way -- the depression and the suicidal thoughts left and never returned.

Things that make me angry still happen and I still rant and vent and luckily have had friends who have allowed me to do this. But I do not get depressed anymore. I never even think of suicide and thoughts of hurting others who have mortally wounded me are fleeting. I have developed a understanding that we are all in this together and who am I to judge what's under somebody else's cover. I am sad, tho -- a lot. Given my circumstances, I think I wld be insane not to be. But I am also happy, I get excited about things, and I am hopeful about the future whether or not it includes me.

As for Robin, I saw/see the light leaving his eyes in these last few yeare. He reminded me of a hamster on a spinning wheel. Whatever his burden -- it was just getting too heavy to bear for a soul so filled with light. Whether he was driving his body/himself too hard or others were . . . and while he seems to have had the love of children and friends -- I think he just ran out of steam/energy and he allowed/was unable to stop the darkness overwhelm his body -- but, and this I know -- not his soul. In fact, I feel him more now -- as tho a piece of his soul touched my heart and helps me to laugh away the pain -- kinda like (in the words of Bob Dylan) "It's alright ma, its life and life only."

(Message edited by jennyblue on August 14, 2014)
We are the ones we've been waiting for. Hopi Elders 2001.
to be a rock and still to roll . . .
change we can believe in is here -- The Ed Show
Love is the Way ~ Jesus of Nazareth
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blue
Senior Member
Username: jennyblue

Post Number: 1570
Registered: 3-2007
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 12:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Message to the Depressed. Thumbs up!

(Message edited by jennyblue on August 14, 2014)
We are the ones we've been waiting for. Hopi Elders 2001.
to be a rock and still to roll . . .
change we can believe in is here -- The Ed Show
Love is the Way ~ Jesus of Nazareth
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7193
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 11:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Thank you for your emotional post, Blue.

As I think you may remember, I could have written almost the same words that you did.

I have pretty much never been "allowed" to express my feelings......not by family, not by "friends", and not by my community.

I was made to suppress my thoughts, opinions and emotions from the time I was a young child.

EXCEPT, like you, there were also times when I would be manipulated into expressing my emotions, and then either used as "entertainment", or just observed like a bug in a jar. But by most in my life, I was just told to stop being so emotional, and I was bullied into silence.

I'm not going to go on any further now....I had yet another fall late this afternoon, and my body is starting to really hurt, so I don't feel up to typing long.

Besides, I have posted at great length about most of this.




Oh, and Blue, re: the "Message to The Depressed" vid; although she was not "completely" there for me, and at times in my life, wasn't there for me at all, my Mother was the only person in my life who "stayed in the room" for me, especially in the last 15 years of her life. And I was also honored to be the only one to stay in the room for her at the end of her life.




.........



This was such a touching episode, especially the ending, and especially now. This episode was inspired by the murder of John Lennon, and aired just two months after John's death:

Mork & Mindy Meet Robin Williams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pBXYM3_IYE




............






Although I laugh and I act like a clown
Beneath this mask I am wearing a frown


John Lennon



.......
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7195
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Friday, August 15, 2014 - 3:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Song for myself, and for anyone else who is suffering and hanging on by a thread........



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxEMl5gK5uI



.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7196
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Friday, August 15, 2014 - 3:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Here's what's needed:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSN5QaVIxKs



.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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blue
Senior Member
Username: jennyblue

Post Number: 1572
Registered: 3-2007
Posted on Friday, August 15, 2014 - 10:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Kinda weird coincidence, SW. I almost posted a similar line about my mother -- including the part about being w/her at the end when she needed me (altho there were others). Almost used your exact words, too. Edit: Actually, come to think of it -- I guess I did post those remarks and then edited them out. (Dont want you to think you were seeing things if you saw the first post So maybe not such a weird coincidence ;)

I think as far as the video goes -- one size doesnt fit all -- but the idea that if you can just be there for someone -- even if if they just want you to listen (not solve) or just come and visit once in a while to let them know you care if that's possible -- can go a long way. And if someone is in immediate need and you know it and you turn away when you cld have stayed in the room --

As for emotions -- never been able to hold them in very well. During survival mode I am pretty good as putting them aside -- but only temporarily, ya know.

Funny thing about emotion -- As time went along, I began to feel, tho, as if I wasnt just expressing my emotion in the situation -- it was the emotion of everybody/most people in the room (or the planet's in some instances). Its like it wld resonate with my emotion and then just flow thru me sometimes in its need to be expressed.

I know you are going thru difficult times -- its seems like we are all sagging under the weight of the cross. It is difficult to remain upbeat -- but since I probably try to avoid pain more than most -- I keep looking toward what's good and true in my life rather than dwelling on the distortions. I ride out the storms and try to pick myself up after the tornado has spent itself or dropped me off or I have escaped or . . . ;)

I think finding out what you truly want to express and then doing it helps heal the anger -- I wonder if maybe all anger stems from some kind of suppression of self -- because finding your bliss -- working w/wood, building things, drawing, singing, dancing, playing team sports, jogging -- everyone has a talent/interest of some kind -- studying/observing birds, the sky -- IF you find those things and set aside time to do them in your life -- not to make money or find fame -- but just because it makes you happy to do them -- (a lesson learned mainly from my grandfather (mom's dad). That, imo, is one of the most effective things you can do to curb/defeat depression.

One of the reasons many creative artists start doing creative things different from their main gig may be to get to that place where one can just do it with no thought to whether it is popular or others will like it. All my music/songs/dancing/crafts/gardening pretty much everything creative I do is for me. For sure, its awesome if others relate and say so -- but I dont create? any of it to please anyone but myself.

People who are more successful? in this world than myself tend to try to please others -- they get caught up in a paradigm that limits their creativity, imo. They find themselves increasingly working "inside the box" instead of out of it. And, it seems to me, often are punished when they try to step outside of the pigeonhole/box the people who promote them and/or their fans have managed to trap them in.

I know that in the minds of most people (including myself) I share too much. I realize there are serious hazards involved. I often wish I cld stop myself . . . and probably shld refrain from posting for a while . . .

(Message edited by jennyblue on August 15, 2014)
We are the ones we've been waiting for. Hopi Elders 2001.
to be a rock and still to roll . . .
change we can believe in is here -- The Ed Show
Love is the Way ~ Jesus of Nazareth
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7198
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, August 18, 2014 - 3:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

blue, I really do appreciate the effort you take to make thoughtful and sensitive posts.


You said:

"I know that in the minds of most people (including myself) I share too much. I realize there are serious hazards involved. I often wish I cld stop myself . . . and probably shld refrain from posting for a while . . ."


Wow! I actually saw that coming, and am not surprised to see you post that.

I understand.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7199
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, August 18, 2014 - 4:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

What nobody really wants to talk about........

The undeniable connection between depression, and the huge increase in the use of SSRI antidepressant drugs, and the risk of both suicidal ideation and parkinsons-like symptoms associated with these drugs..........

and the sick truth of why this is not discussed in mainstream media........

"There are, on average, 80 drug commercials every hour of every day, on television."



And then, we even dismiss/refuse to think about the fact that all these drug commercials are followed up by commercials by lawyers who are helping victims of these drugs (etc.) recover damages.


It's a rabbit hole.................



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiUeOLfV5z8




Why are there still so many who cannot or WILL NOT see?

It's all back to the concept of willful ignorance I referred to before.


But why?




"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7200
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, August 18, 2014 - 4:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Robin:

(as a kid) "I started telling jokes in order to prevent getting the **** kicked out of me."



In almost any story of depression and suicide, there is a STRONG ELEMENT of BULLYING.



.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7201
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, August 18, 2014 - 4:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

"Drug use is basically an attempt to self-medicate a brain that has developed dysfunctionally due to the lack of parental attachment."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diyuAXzN7yo&list=UUC3L8QaxqEGUiBC252GHy3w


.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7202
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, August 18, 2014 - 4:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I think of some people, like my sister and father, whose attention span is so short, that they cannot watch the above video.

But what's even worse, is that, even with the ability to take breaks, and watch small portions at a time, they still won't watch.

It's just too close to home.




Willful ignorance.



.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Sharon2
Senior Member
Username: sharon2468

Post Number: 5623
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Monday, August 18, 2014 - 10:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

One chooses "willful ignorance" because the alternative is too painful to admit or deal with.

Just my opinion.
"I believe in the sun even if it isn't shining. I believe in love even if I am alone. I believe in God even when He is silent."
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blue
Senior Member
Username: jennyblue

Post Number: 1573
Registered: 3-2007
Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2014 - 6:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I think that are a great many of us who have suffered abuse as a child -- the abuse I suffered as a child did not come from my family. It was organized and to the best of my knowledge -- rather pervasive in the culture of the world today and, imo, is the source of most of our problems. For those who have suffered intensive abuse at the hands of close family members -- my heart feels your pain. I think familial abuse is a more intense and sharp pain and is crippling in a way that abuse from strangers or near strangers is not. It is also much harder to block it from your memory -- forcing you to deal w/it whether or not you are able.

I think anti-depressants are bad but I feel that way about most pharmaceuticals and the medical industry in general. I find it ironic that Robin managed to survive self-medication but not medical supervision (all too common a theme, imo).

Human beings have a good nose for survival and blocking out what one cannot deal with is a survival technique. I agree w/Sharon's assessment of those who cannot deal w/the truth -- whether it is one's personal truth or the truth that we all share. We all have our own versions of what we can deal with. I used to push people -- blurting out my truth constantly whether they wanted to hear it or not (at least you guys can skip my posts . . . ) My mom said I liked to shock people ... but I learned to try, at least, not to . . . . I have learned to let people have their ignorance if they want/need it -- and I try to avoid subjects that make them feel uncomfortable. Pushing people to remember/admit the reality/possible reality of something they are not mentally/emotionally ready for is just another form of violence.

-- Interesting talk on npr yesterday from a professor/former professor? at Yale who wrote a book about how young people admitted to our best colleges and universities are trained, highly intelligent "sheeple" -- by design. Young people whose whole life as been so achievement based (the next gold star as he puts it) that they have no clue who they are or what they want. He presents a sympathetic but sharp point of view.

From my experience in education, I foresee an entire generation being trained to respond to bells and whistles -- and gold stars. SW -- you brought up lack of parental attachment -- child care, sports activities, music lessons -- both parents working or strung out on drugs (highest correlation for drug abuse -- unemployment). Sounds depressing . . .
We are the ones we've been waiting for. Hopi Elders 2001.
to be a rock and still to roll . . .
change we can believe in is here -- The Ed Show
Love is the Way ~ Jesus of Nazareth
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7203
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2014 - 5:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

"I think anti-depressants are bad but I feel that way about most pharmaceuticals and the medical industry in general. I find it ironic that Robin managed to survive self-medication but not medical supervision (all too common a theme, imo)."

Absolutely! I agree 100% with both of those statements, blue.



--------------

I stick to my statements that the reason why most people stay willfully ignorant, or go into denial when they are given information, is because they don't want any involvement in anybody else's troubles. Some just don't have the energy left over for anything but daily survival, but too many just don't have ANY empathy for the suffering of others.


Some people are innocent, and basically decent. But they are also so trapped on the treadmill/hamster wheel, that they have to stay in denial. If they admitted the truth about some things to themselves, or to anyone else, then they would be obligated by their basic honest nature to DO SOMETHING, but they are so busy chasing their tails trying to keep their own heads above water, that they stick their heads in the sand about anyone else's problems.

But those people are NOT the same ones I refer to as willfully ignorant, and by that I actually mean that the "willfully ignorant" KNOW the truth, but just don't care. Period. And they will NOT listen to any evidence that would prove them wrong.

Some of them are sly about it, and will pretend to listen and sympathize TO YOUR FACE, but then will behave in ways that contradict the facts.

Or, if circumstances force them, they will say, out of one side of their faces, they understand (for example, that depression is a tragic condition that is not a personal choice). But then, they will later say just the opposite, and use the old "bootstraps" excuse to dismiss the suffering of others.

They are, by definition, sociopathic/narcissistic. They diminish the suffering of others, because they have NO ability to empathize.

That is a whole different animal from someone who truly does feel compassion, but still goes into denial about things, because they are too overwhelmed with their own problems.

Perhaps the better, more accurate term for the compassionless ones I rail against, is "feigned ignorance" or it's opposite, "feigned understanding". They are the two opposite sides of a game played by narcissists, who say on one day "I understand" but on the next day say "it's your fault".


Here is a good article to better explain what I am trying to say, about the difference between "denial", and "feigned ignorance".



"http://thenarcissisticlife.com/what-are-the-differences-between-narcissism-and-a lcoholic-selfishness/




The narcissist says "everybody gets a little blue once in a while, but suicide is for cowards."

A "Normal" but overwhelmed person says, "this is all just too sad and overwhelming to think about, so I must detach."
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7204
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2014 - 6:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

You know, one of the greatest things about some comics, is that they invite us to look at ourselves a little closer, but they do it with such humor that it makes it a little easier to digest.


"A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down."


The reasons I loved Robin Williams and George Carlin, and some others like Bill Burr, are because they used humor to force us to look at ourselves, and our world, and how it's devolving.




George Carlin on Depression and Suicide:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ucRM0eYD7U


"That's it, I'm hangin' myself, and Walmart's paying for it. What's next? A NOTE. Oh, geezus, gotta 'express myself'.
Hell, if I could express myself, I wouldn't be thinkin' of doing something like this!"




I remember when I saw George Carlin in concert in about 1985 or '86, I was still pretty much asleep. I was having small glimmers of waking up......such as starting to remember some stuff from childhood.....but I was still enough asleep, that I was highly offended and pissed off by things Carlin said.

Thankfully (or not), with age came memories and wisdom and understanding........and now, I get it, and I definitely understand why he initially pissed me off.



Comedy truly is the natural other side of tragedy, and vice versa.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7205
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2014 - 7:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7TLTjqUyog



Thank God for people who understand, and yet still find a way to help us hold on.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7206
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2014 - 7:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

To Sharon.....


What if the choice of willful ignorance by those who find the alternative too painful, results in the suicide of another human being?



.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7207
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2014 - 8:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

http://www.naturalnews.com/046445_Robin_Williams_Bill_Burr_comedic_genius.html



"We don't live in the real world, you see. We live in a social construct of delusional myths crafted by institutions, governments and high-level storytellers sometimes called "experts." This is the world pulled over your eyes to make sure you never see the truth.

It is the job of comedians, I believe, to challenge those cultural delusions and force us to think in new ways about the world around us. If you thought the role of comedians was simply to make us laugh, you've missed the bigger picture. Their real role -- and their deeper value to society -- is in making us laugh at our own stupidity so that we recognize the insanities as the first step toward reforming them. In the days of kings, the King's favorite advisor was often the court jester. Why? Because he was the only person who would tell the King the truth (disguised as humor, of course, if he wanted to keep his head attached to his neck).

Today, anyone who allows their speech to be subject to audience approval is surrendering to the cultural myths of the day and retreating from their true voice. True comedy must ultimately be based in a philosophy of truth, even if that truth is unpopular.


The world is a house of mirrors, but the most frightening mirror of all is the one that reveals to the audience their own contradictions, insanities and insecurities. To hold up that mirror at the world takes more than mere courage and talent; it takes a profound commitment to being a vehicle of radical change in a society steeped in insanity and self destruction.




.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Sharon2
Senior Member
Username: sharon2468

Post Number: 5624
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2014 - 4:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Second Wind, I know what you have dealt with your own family and I am sorry for their insensitivity and your resulting pain.

Some people will always be uncaring and selfish. The more empathetic among us will have to learn how to cope with the callous and cruel.

As reasoning adults, we are ultimately responsible for ourselves and our actions.
We can't change anyone... we can only change ourselves or how we view things.
"I believe in the sun even if it isn't shining. I believe in love even if I am alone. I believe in God even when He is silent."

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