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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7190
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 5:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

After I posted about Robin's death on the "What's Happening" thread, there have been a number of good posts there about depression. I decided it's worth starting a thread that will remain.....at least for now.

CBS Evening News: Williams suicide highlights problems of treating depression

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjKjfZP5zJo




OK, to stretch credulity to its max.......

Even if Robin is really alive and well, and laughing all the way to the bank, the bottom line is that a conversation about the epidemic of depression (and other mental illnesses, all of which have depression as a major element) is now being talked about more widely.

So I decided to start this thread.

With this loss of Robin, we are reminded yet again, that drama is all about the human condition.

There's a good reason why the "logo" of drama is this:

http://media.sdreader.com/img/photos/2012/04/17/Tamekacomedytragedy.jpg

Thalia, the muse of comedy, and Melpomene, the muse of tragedy

http://www.ehow.com/about_5056817_name-comedy-tragedy-masks.html



Simple and complex as it is, the other side of comedy is tragedy, and Robin has taught us this like perhaps no other.

Robin, with all his sensitivity, his empathy, his perceptiveness, his mental agility, and his love, had a heart too tender to survive, unscathed, all that he had been through.

He brings the truth home yet again, that all the fame and money in the world cannot heal some wounds.


Willful ignorance is rampant. In our world today, there is almost NOTHING we cannot learn about VERY EASILY, with time and effort. And with the internet, it is immeasurably easier than ever before in history, to be informed and educated about ANYTHING.

In this day and time, with all the availability of information, anyone who tries to claim that there is no difference between “sadness” and depression is being WILLFULLY ignorant.

Being willfully ignorant gives people the “freedom” to distance themselves from any obligation or responsibility for the suffering of their spouse, their children, other family members, their neighbors or friends, or their fellow man.

The people who CHOOSE to dismiss the suffering of others, can then claim to be justified for their lack of willingness to help in any substantial way. They can justify their lack of empathy and compassion, their selfishness, by playing the “bootstraps” card.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
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Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7191
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 5:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Message to the Depressed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUHcc7ipGt0
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
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Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7192
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 5:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

We need to talk about Depression!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvbWKwxA6YY
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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blue
Senior Member
Username: jennyblue

Post Number: 1569
Registered: 3-2007
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 11:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

First, let me admit? I am not good at suppressing my anger. Strong emotion was/is considered a weakness in my family (as were tears) so I was odd man out I guess. My mom, master of reverse logic, would always be the one to tease the emotions out of me (right before she punished me for them). But still, I think, ultimately, she was effective and got the required result. I think the suppression of strong emotions -- even when around family -- is emotionally crippling. I found that a lot of people, particularly people who have power over you, use emotion against you as if they are somehow superior to you or that there is something wrong w/you if you raise your voice -- even when you are feeling good about something -- but that's a side-issue. My point is that I believe emotions are less trouble when they are released as one has them as opposed to suppressed. When they are suppressed -- they become more intense/build up with time and are acted out in inappropriate (tho often culturally acceptable) ways.

I was depressed/suicidal on/off for a long time until the early 80s. The first time I remember getting close to trying to commit suicide, I was about 7. In the early 80s, I was shocked into (no other way of putting it right now) into understanding the cause of my depression. and it turned out that all the anger came from things which were below my consciousness -- things that happened/were happening to me that I didnt know about/remember. Once I recognized what was/had been happening (even tho it was in bits and pieces) -- and, in my own way, asserted myself and began to defend myself making clear my intent in an open and more conscious way -- the depression and the suicidal thoughts left and never returned.

Things that make me angry still happen and I still rant and vent and luckily have had friends who have allowed me to do this. But I do not get depressed anymore. I never even think of suicide and thoughts of hurting others who have mortally wounded me are fleeting. I have developed a understanding that we are all in this together and who am I to judge what's under somebody else's cover. I am sad, tho -- a lot. Given my circumstances, I think I wld be insane not to be. But I am also happy, I get excited about things, and I am hopeful about the future whether or not it includes me.

As for Robin, I saw/see the light leaving his eyes in these last few yeare. He reminded me of a hamster on a spinning wheel. Whatever his burden -- it was just getting too heavy to bear for a soul so filled with light. Whether he was driving his body/himself too hard or others were . . . and while he seems to have had the love of children and friends -- I think he just ran out of steam/energy and he allowed/was unable to stop the darkness overwhelm his body -- but, and this I know -- not his soul. In fact, I feel him more now -- as tho a piece of his soul touched my heart and helps me to laugh away the pain -- kinda like (in the words of Bob Dylan) "It's alright ma, its life and life only."

(Message edited by jennyblue on August 14, 2014)
We are the ones we've been waiting for. Hopi Elders 2001.
to be a rock and still to roll . . .
change we can believe in is here -- The Ed Show
Love is the Way ~ Jesus of Nazareth
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blue
Senior Member
Username: jennyblue

Post Number: 1570
Registered: 3-2007
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 12:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Message to the Depressed. Thumbs up!

(Message edited by jennyblue on August 14, 2014)
We are the ones we've been waiting for. Hopi Elders 2001.
to be a rock and still to roll . . .
change we can believe in is here -- The Ed Show
Love is the Way ~ Jesus of Nazareth
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7193
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2014 - 11:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Thank you for your emotional post, Blue.

As I think you may remember, I could have written almost the same words that you did.

I have pretty much never been "allowed" to express my feelings......not by family, not by "friends", and not by my community.

I was made to suppress my thoughts, opinions and emotions from the time I was a young child.

EXCEPT, like you, there were also times when I would be manipulated into expressing my emotions, and then either used as "entertainment", or just observed like a bug in a jar. But by most in my life, I was just told to stop being so emotional, and I was bullied into silence.

I'm not going to go on any further now....I had yet another fall late this afternoon, and my body is starting to really hurt, so I don't feel up to typing long.

Besides, I have posted at great length about most of this.




Oh, and Blue, re: the "Message to The Depressed" vid; although she was not "completely" there for me, and at times in my life, wasn't there for me at all, my Mother was the only person in my life who "stayed in the room" for me, especially in the last 15 years of her life. And I was also honored to be the only one to stay in the room for her at the end of her life.




.........



This was such a touching episode, especially the ending, and especially now. This episode was inspired by the murder of John Lennon, and aired just two months after John's death:

Mork & Mindy Meet Robin Williams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pBXYM3_IYE




............






Although I laugh and I act like a clown
Beneath this mask I am wearing a frown


John Lennon



.......
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
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Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7195
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Friday, August 15, 2014 - 3:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Song for myself, and for anyone else who is suffering and hanging on by a thread........



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxEMl5gK5uI



.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
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Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7196
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Friday, August 15, 2014 - 3:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Here's what's needed:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSN5QaVIxKs



.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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blue
Senior Member
Username: jennyblue

Post Number: 1572
Registered: 3-2007
Posted on Friday, August 15, 2014 - 10:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Kinda weird coincidence, SW. I almost posted a similar line about my mother -- including the part about being w/her at the end when she needed me (altho there were others). Almost used your exact words, too. Edit: Actually, come to think of it -- I guess I did post those remarks and then edited them out. (Dont want you to think you were seeing things if you saw the first post So maybe not such a weird coincidence ;)

I think as far as the video goes -- one size doesnt fit all -- but the idea that if you can just be there for someone -- even if if they just want you to listen (not solve) or just come and visit once in a while to let them know you care if that's possible -- can go a long way. And if someone is in immediate need and you know it and you turn away when you cld have stayed in the room --

As for emotions -- never been able to hold them in very well. During survival mode I am pretty good as putting them aside -- but only temporarily, ya know.

Funny thing about emotion -- As time went along, I began to feel, tho, as if I wasnt just expressing my emotion in the situation -- it was the emotion of everybody/most people in the room (or the planet's in some instances). Its like it wld resonate with my emotion and then just flow thru me sometimes in its need to be expressed.

I know you are going thru difficult times -- its seems like we are all sagging under the weight of the cross. It is difficult to remain upbeat -- but since I probably try to avoid pain more than most -- I keep looking toward what's good and true in my life rather than dwelling on the distortions. I ride out the storms and try to pick myself up after the tornado has spent itself or dropped me off or I have escaped or . . . ;)

I think finding out what you truly want to express and then doing it helps heal the anger -- I wonder if maybe all anger stems from some kind of suppression of self -- because finding your bliss -- working w/wood, building things, drawing, singing, dancing, playing team sports, jogging -- everyone has a talent/interest of some kind -- studying/observing birds, the sky -- IF you find those things and set aside time to do them in your life -- not to make money or find fame -- but just because it makes you happy to do them -- (a lesson learned mainly from my grandfather (mom's dad). That, imo, is one of the most effective things you can do to curb/defeat depression.

One of the reasons many creative artists start doing creative things different from their main gig may be to get to that place where one can just do it with no thought to whether it is popular or others will like it. All my music/songs/dancing/crafts/gardening pretty much everything creative I do is for me. For sure, its awesome if others relate and say so -- but I dont create? any of it to please anyone but myself.

People who are more successful? in this world than myself tend to try to please others -- they get caught up in a paradigm that limits their creativity, imo. They find themselves increasingly working "inside the box" instead of out of it. And, it seems to me, often are punished when they try to step outside of the pigeonhole/box the people who promote them and/or their fans have managed to trap them in.

I know that in the minds of most people (including myself) I share too much. I realize there are serious hazards involved. I often wish I cld stop myself . . . and probably shld refrain from posting for a while . . .

(Message edited by jennyblue on August 15, 2014)
We are the ones we've been waiting for. Hopi Elders 2001.
to be a rock and still to roll . . .
change we can believe in is here -- The Ed Show
Love is the Way ~ Jesus of Nazareth
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7198
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, August 18, 2014 - 3:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

blue, I really do appreciate the effort you take to make thoughtful and sensitive posts.


You said:

"I know that in the minds of most people (including myself) I share too much. I realize there are serious hazards involved. I often wish I cld stop myself . . . and probably shld refrain from posting for a while . . ."


Wow! I actually saw that coming, and am not surprised to see you post that.

I understand.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7199
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, August 18, 2014 - 4:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

What nobody really wants to talk about........

The undeniable connection between depression, and the huge increase in the use of SSRI antidepressant drugs, and the risk of both suicidal ideation and parkinsons-like symptoms associated with these drugs..........

and the sick truth of why this is not discussed in mainstream media........

"There are, on average, 80 drug commercials every hour of every day, on television."



And then, we even dismiss/refuse to think about the fact that all these drug commercials are followed up by commercials by lawyers who are helping victims of these drugs (etc.) recover damages.


It's a rabbit hole.................



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiUeOLfV5z8




Why are there still so many who cannot or WILL NOT see?

It's all back to the concept of willful ignorance I referred to before.


But why?




"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7200
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, August 18, 2014 - 4:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Robin:

(as a kid) "I started telling jokes in order to prevent getting the **** kicked out of me."



In almost any story of depression and suicide, there is a STRONG ELEMENT of BULLYING.



.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7201
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, August 18, 2014 - 4:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

"Drug use is basically an attempt to self-medicate a brain that has developed dysfunctionally due to the lack of parental attachment."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diyuAXzN7yo&list=UUC3L8QaxqEGUiBC252GHy3w


.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7202
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, August 18, 2014 - 4:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I think of some people, like my sister and father, whose attention span is so short, that they cannot watch the above video.

But what's even worse, is that, even with the ability to take breaks, and watch small portions at a time, they still won't watch.

It's just too close to home.




Willful ignorance.



.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Sharon2
Senior Member
Username: sharon2468

Post Number: 5623
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Monday, August 18, 2014 - 10:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

One chooses "willful ignorance" because the alternative is too painful to admit or deal with.

Just my opinion.
"I believe in the sun even if it isn't shining. I believe in love even if I am alone. I believe in God even when He is silent."
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blue
Senior Member
Username: jennyblue

Post Number: 1573
Registered: 3-2007
Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2014 - 6:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I think that are a great many of us who have suffered abuse as a child -- the abuse I suffered as a child did not come from my family. It was organized and to the best of my knowledge -- rather pervasive in the culture of the world today and, imo, is the source of most of our problems. For those who have suffered intensive abuse at the hands of close family members -- my heart feels your pain. I think familial abuse is a more intense and sharp pain and is crippling in a way that abuse from strangers or near strangers is not. It is also much harder to block it from your memory -- forcing you to deal w/it whether or not you are able.

I think anti-depressants are bad but I feel that way about most pharmaceuticals and the medical industry in general. I find it ironic that Robin managed to survive self-medication but not medical supervision (all too common a theme, imo).

Human beings have a good nose for survival and blocking out what one cannot deal with is a survival technique. I agree w/Sharon's assessment of those who cannot deal w/the truth -- whether it is one's personal truth or the truth that we all share. We all have our own versions of what we can deal with. I used to push people -- blurting out my truth constantly whether they wanted to hear it or not (at least you guys can skip my posts . . . ) My mom said I liked to shock people ... but I learned to try, at least, not to . . . . I have learned to let people have their ignorance if they want/need it -- and I try to avoid subjects that make them feel uncomfortable. Pushing people to remember/admit the reality/possible reality of something they are not mentally/emotionally ready for is just another form of violence.

-- Interesting talk on npr yesterday from a professor/former professor? at Yale who wrote a book about how young people admitted to our best colleges and universities are trained, highly intelligent "sheeple" -- by design. Young people whose whole life as been so achievement based (the next gold star as he puts it) that they have no clue who they are or what they want. He presents a sympathetic but sharp point of view.

From my experience in education, I foresee an entire generation being trained to respond to bells and whistles -- and gold stars. SW -- you brought up lack of parental attachment -- child care, sports activities, music lessons -- both parents working or strung out on drugs (highest correlation for drug abuse -- unemployment). Sounds depressing . . .
We are the ones we've been waiting for. Hopi Elders 2001.
to be a rock and still to roll . . .
change we can believe in is here -- The Ed Show
Love is the Way ~ Jesus of Nazareth
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7203
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2014 - 5:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

"I think anti-depressants are bad but I feel that way about most pharmaceuticals and the medical industry in general. I find it ironic that Robin managed to survive self-medication but not medical supervision (all too common a theme, imo)."

Absolutely! I agree 100% with both of those statements, blue.



--------------

I stick to my statements that the reason why most people stay willfully ignorant, or go into denial when they are given information, is because they don't want any involvement in anybody else's troubles. Some just don't have the energy left over for anything but daily survival, but too many just don't have ANY empathy for the suffering of others.


Some people are innocent, and basically decent. But they are also so trapped on the treadmill/hamster wheel, that they have to stay in denial. If they admitted the truth about some things to themselves, or to anyone else, then they would be obligated by their basic honest nature to DO SOMETHING, but they are so busy chasing their tails trying to keep their own heads above water, that they stick their heads in the sand about anyone else's problems.

But those people are NOT the same ones I refer to as willfully ignorant, and by that I actually mean that the "willfully ignorant" KNOW the truth, but just don't care. Period. And they will NOT listen to any evidence that would prove them wrong.

Some of them are sly about it, and will pretend to listen and sympathize TO YOUR FACE, but then will behave in ways that contradict the facts.

Or, if circumstances force them, they will say, out of one side of their faces, they understand (for example, that depression is a tragic condition that is not a personal choice). But then, they will later say just the opposite, and use the old "bootstraps" excuse to dismiss the suffering of others.

They are, by definition, sociopathic/narcissistic. They diminish the suffering of others, because they have NO ability to empathize.

That is a whole different animal from someone who truly does feel compassion, but still goes into denial about things, because they are too overwhelmed with their own problems.

Perhaps the better, more accurate term for the compassionless ones I rail against, is "feigned ignorance" or it's opposite, "feigned understanding". They are the two opposite sides of a game played by narcissists, who say on one day "I understand" but on the next day say "it's your fault".


Here is a good article to better explain what I am trying to say, about the difference between "denial", and "feigned ignorance".



"http://thenarcissisticlife.com/what-are-the-differences-between-narcissism-and-a lcoholic-selfishness/




The narcissist says "everybody gets a little blue once in a while, but suicide is for cowards."

A "Normal" but overwhelmed person says, "this is all just too sad and overwhelming to think about, so I must detach."
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7204
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2014 - 6:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

You know, one of the greatest things about some comics, is that they invite us to look at ourselves a little closer, but they do it with such humor that it makes it a little easier to digest.


"A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down."


The reasons I loved Robin Williams and George Carlin, and some others like Bill Burr, are because they used humor to force us to look at ourselves, and our world, and how it's devolving.




George Carlin on Depression and Suicide:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ucRM0eYD7U


"That's it, I'm hangin' myself, and Walmart's paying for it. What's next? A NOTE. Oh, geezus, gotta 'express myself'.
Hell, if I could express myself, I wouldn't be thinkin' of doing something like this!"




I remember when I saw George Carlin in concert in about 1985 or '86, I was still pretty much asleep. I was having small glimmers of waking up......such as starting to remember some stuff from childhood.....but I was still enough asleep, that I was highly offended and pissed off by things Carlin said.

Thankfully (or not), with age came memories and wisdom and understanding........and now, I get it, and I definitely understand why he initially pissed me off.



Comedy truly is the natural other side of tragedy, and vice versa.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7205
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2014 - 7:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7TLTjqUyog



Thank God for people who understand, and yet still find a way to help us hold on.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
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Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7206
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2014 - 7:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

To Sharon.....


What if the choice of willful ignorance by those who find the alternative too painful, results in the suicide of another human being?



.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7207
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2014 - 8:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

http://www.naturalnews.com/046445_Robin_Williams_Bill_Burr_comedic_genius.html



"We don't live in the real world, you see. We live in a social construct of delusional myths crafted by institutions, governments and high-level storytellers sometimes called "experts." This is the world pulled over your eyes to make sure you never see the truth.

It is the job of comedians, I believe, to challenge those cultural delusions and force us to think in new ways about the world around us. If you thought the role of comedians was simply to make us laugh, you've missed the bigger picture. Their real role -- and their deeper value to society -- is in making us laugh at our own stupidity so that we recognize the insanities as the first step toward reforming them. In the days of kings, the King's favorite advisor was often the court jester. Why? Because he was the only person who would tell the King the truth (disguised as humor, of course, if he wanted to keep his head attached to his neck).

Today, anyone who allows their speech to be subject to audience approval is surrendering to the cultural myths of the day and retreating from their true voice. True comedy must ultimately be based in a philosophy of truth, even if that truth is unpopular.


The world is a house of mirrors, but the most frightening mirror of all is the one that reveals to the audience their own contradictions, insanities and insecurities. To hold up that mirror at the world takes more than mere courage and talent; it takes a profound commitment to being a vehicle of radical change in a society steeped in insanity and self destruction.




.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Sharon2
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Username: sharon2468

Post Number: 5624
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2014 - 4:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Second Wind, I know what you have dealt with your own family and I am sorry for their insensitivity and your resulting pain.

Some people will always be uncaring and selfish. The more empathetic among us will have to learn how to cope with the callous and cruel.

As reasoning adults, we are ultimately responsible for ourselves and our actions.
We can't change anyone... we can only change ourselves or how we view things.
"I believe in the sun even if it isn't shining. I believe in love even if I am alone. I believe in God even when He is silent."
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Second Wind
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Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7209
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, September 01, 2014 - 9:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

This is a beautiful piece I stumbled upon, by Tim Wise, on his reaction to Robin Williams' death, and his own experience of his father's suicide attempt.

It's long, but so beautifully expressed, and worth the effort to read.


http://www.timwise.org/2014/08/tears-of-a-clown-robin-williams-suicide-and-some- reflections-on-sadness/#more-5866


I have to admit, I winced at his frequent use of the word "sadness". But his understanding of the depths of sadness that is depression, makes it easy for me to overlook his use of the word.




.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7210
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, September 01, 2014 - 9:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Sharon,


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_suicide

A common adage in the discourse surrounding suicide prevention sums up this view: "Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem." However, the argument against this is that while emotional pain may seem transitory to most people, and in many cases it is, in other cases it may be extremely difficult or even impossible to resolve, even through counseling or lifestyle change, depending upon the severity of the affliction and the person's ability to cope with their pain. Examples of this are incurable disease or lifelong mental illness."










"David Hume left an essay on suicide to be published after his death.[3] Most of it is concerned with the claim that suicide is an affront to God. Hume argues that suicide is no more a rebellion against God than is saving the life of someone who would otherwise die, or changing the position of anything in one's surroundings. He spends much less time dismissing arguments that it is an affront to one's duty to others or to oneself. Hume claims that suicide can be compared to retiring from society and becoming a total recluse, which is not normally considered to be immoral, although the comparison would not seem to justify a suicide that leaves in its wake children or dependents who are thereby rendered vulnerable. As for duty to self, Hume takes it to be obvious that there can be times when suicide is desirable, though he also thinks it ridiculous that anyone would consider suicide unless they first considered every other option.

Those who support the right to die argue that suicide is acceptable under certain circumstances, such as incurable disease and old age. The idea is that although life is, in general, good, people who face irreversible suffering should not be forced to continue suffering."



"Leonard Peikoff states in his book Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand:

Suicide is justified when man's life, owing to circumstances outside of a person's control, is no longer possible; an example might be a person with a painful terminal illness, or a prisoner in a concentration camp who sees no chance of escape. In cases such as these, suicide is not necessarily a philosophic rejection of life or of reality. On the contrary, it may very well be their tragic reaffirmation. Self-destruction in such contexts may amount to the tortured cry: 'Man's life means so much to me that I will not settle for anything less. I will not accept a living death as a substitute.'






............


Yes, suicide is ultimately a choice. But more often than people want to admit, it ends up as the ONLY TRULY RATIONAL ALTERNATIVE to a long, drawn-out death caused by unbearable suffering which is caused by the removal of all other choices.


It's really easy to say "there is always some other choice", which implies that unbearable suffering is a rational choice.

It's MUCH HARDER to commit to helping someone make sure there TRULY are no other choices.

Even if onlookers DO invest in trying to help, and ultimately can rationally SEE that there truly seems to be no other rational choice, they still will feel compelled to not acknowledge such, because they don't want to be considered as "condoning" the suicide choice.







.....And Robin Williams is an example of how even unlimited resources cannot necessarily offer any real alternatives to prevent unbearable suffering.



.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7211
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, September 01, 2014 - 10:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

http://www.theguardian.com/science/brain-flapping/2014/aug/12/robin-williams-sui cide-and-depression-are-not-selfish


"The 'selfish' accusation also often implies that there are other options the sufferer has, but has chosen suicide. Or that it’s the 'easy way out'. There are many ways to describe the sort of suffering that overrides a survival instinct that has evolved over millions of years, but 'easy' isn’t an obvious one to go for."



What he said.

A SANE person hangs on to life and hope. A sane person makes every conceivable effort to leave no stone unturned for alternatives to endless suffering.

IMO, the ones who say "suicide is the easy way out" are just compensating for the fact they THEY were unable to make the same exhaustive effort to look for solutions for their friend or loved one.

Yes, it's true, that SOME suicides never reach out for help.

But most of them do reach out, one way or another, and often in MANY WAYS and even over and over, still hanging on to the idea that there is some other "answer" out there.

Sometimes, when a person is becoming convinced there is no hope, and they reach out to others, they are either ignored completely, or, are reported to "authorities" as being "a danger to themselves". With what we know about "mental hospitals", even today, is it really a surprise that many would see that as just another "fate worse than death"?

Think, again, about Robin. He used his considerable financial resources, and shortly before his death, voluntarily committed himself to a facility for help. We now have been told that he had not lost his sobriety, but was there for "fine tuning".

Based on what we have been told about his recent Parkinson's diagnosis, the timing of that hospital stay seems no coincidence. He was TRYING to live, despite everything.

But sometimes, there just is no real solution to end suffering, except to end suffering. And that is true, even if the sufferer is rich, and has what others see as "loving family" and "success".

What of those who have no money, insurance, family or other support?



"People should never be made to feel worse for suffering from something beyond their control."



.

(Message edited by second_wind on September 01, 2014)
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Sharon2
Senior Member
Username: sharon2468

Post Number: 5631
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Monday, September 01, 2014 - 8:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Second Wind, I read the article that Tim Wise wrote about his father's attempted suicide. It made me sad for Tim because he felt like he might have been able to do something to prevent it. That is the tragedy.

Most suicidal people are not JUST sad.... they are depressed. That is so much more oppressive and ugly than feeling 'down or feeling 'blue'. Depression is a deep, dark hole of hopelessness.

You can live with being sad but it is a whole lot harder to live without hope.

There IS help for depression but sometimes it takes a while to find that help.

After the birth of my second child, I was clinically depressed. I didn't know what was wrong. I didn't feel sad at all. I felt EMPTY! I couldn't feel anything. That was scary and there was no name for it at the time. I finally mentioned it to a doctor who knew about it and prescribed meds that helped lift the cloud that hung over me for years. It wasn't a "happy pill"... it was a "I feel like myself again".

Depression is like being a member of the walking dead. Alive but only going through the motions of living.

If anyone feels like that.....Please tell your doctor.
"I believe in the sun even if it isn't shining. I believe in love even if I am alone. I believe in God even when He is silent."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7212
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2014 - 5:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Sharon,

Did you read my posts 7210 and 7211?

If not, I hope you will do so.

If so, I would very much appreciate your feedback, directly relative to the points I tried to make....if you are willing.


And it goes without saying that I would truly appreciate ANYONE'S feedback on what I post. If I weren't hoping for feedback, I wouldn't be posting.


.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7213
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2014 - 6:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Sharon,

Thank you so much for sharing about your own personal experience. Sounds like classic "post-partum depression.


I would be very interested in hearing about the medication you used.

I'd like to know what you took, and for how long - or if you are still taking it.

I would also like to hear about your reactions to it at various stages, both good and bad.

AND, if you are no longer taking it, I would like to hear about your experience of getting off.




.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Sharon2
Senior Member
Username: sharon2468

Post Number: 5633
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2014 - 6:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

A agree with your posts! If someone wants to leave their life on earth (in my opinion) they are not healthy, either in body, mind or soul.

They can't "snap out of it" or "cheer up" or "look on the bright side". They need medical intervention.

Suicide is an act of desperation and hopelessness. This is my opinion and 'take' on it.

I keep going back to the people in the World Trade buildings who were caught in the inferno with no way to escape the flames and smoke. It is my belief that they didn't want to die... they were trying to escape the pain. That pretty much sums up what I think suicide is.

I reread your posts and if a person is ignored for trying to explain their pain, they need to find someone who will do something. It took me years to find someone to define what I was going through.

Back to Robin Williams: He had a hard time opening up to people. He would side step things by being a clown. How could anyone help him if he wasn't honest about what he was going through.

I'll post more this afternoon. I have to get ready for work.
"I believe in the sun even if it isn't shining. I believe in love even if I am alone. I believe in God even when He is silent."
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Sharon2
Senior Member
Username: sharon2468

Post Number: 5634
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2014 - 7:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

After a week (when I first started) I felt like a new person. It worked that fast. I started out with a low dose of Zoloft and then he uped it a few months later with a generic equivalent.
I tried to wean off of it a year later (with Dr.'s permission) to see if I would be ok but went back on it when I just wasn't feeling "right". I am still taking a low dose-25mg every day and feel normal. For me it was like night and day.

From what I've read, it is a brain chemistry problem. I truly hope my experience will encourage someone to seek help if they need it.
"I believe in the sun even if it isn't shining. I believe in love even if I am alone. I believe in God even when He is silent."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7214
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2014 - 9:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Sharon (and anyone else reading):

I have struggled for hours with trying to decide whether to post this post.

I don't want to attack anyone's choices and/or beliefs, but I do want to challenge them as not necessarily being "THE truth" about this subject.



Please respond specifically to each of these statements I made. (I am repeating them here.)


1. Yes, suicide is ultimately a choice. But more often than people want to admit, it ends up as the ONLY TRULY RATIONAL ALTERNATIVE to a long, drawn-out death caused by unbearable suffering, which is caused by the removal of all other choices.


2. It's really easy to say "there is always some other choice", which implies that unbearable suffering is a rational choice.

3. It's MUCH HARDER to commit to helping someone make sure there TRULY are no other choices.

4. Even if onlookers (whether friends, family, doctors, therapists, whatever) DO invest in trying to help, and ultimately can rationally SEE that there truly seem to be no other rational choices, they still will feel compelled to not acknowledge such, because they don't want to be considered as "condoning" the suicide choice.


5. Robin Williams suicide is an example of how even unlimited resources cannot necessarily offer any real alternatives to prevent unbearable suffering. (On the contrary, his "treatment" with psych drugs, and/or his withdrawal from them, most likely sealed his fate.)

6. Sometimes, there just is no real solution to end suffering, except to end suffering. And that is true, even if the sufferer is rich, and has what others see as "loving family" and "success", and unlimited access to "the best" "medical intervention".

7. What about those who have no money, insurance, family or other support?



8. Is it your belief that there just is no amount of suffering bad enough to warrant ending one's life?


9. How much effort would you be willing to expend, to help a person (ANY person) look for alternatives to suicide, when that person has seemingly exhausted all other solutions?

10. Can you not see that there are often situations that there simply are no "medical solutions" for, even if money were no object?



Previously, you said:

One chooses "willful ignorance" because the alternative is too painful to admit or deal with.


Isn't that really the bottom line?

Isn't that behind why a victim of suffering gets both blamed and dismissed, by those he turns to for help and solutions?

There are just some things an antidepressant cannot fix. There are too many times when what is truly needed is not "medical intervention", but SOCIAL, HUMANITARIAN intervention.

And even worse than that, there are too many times when NO AMOUNT OF INTERVENTION of ANY KIND will alleviate unbearable suffering.

Jesus said to judge not, lest you be judged. NOBODY has the right to determine for someone else what constitutes 'UNBEARABLE SUFFERING".

That's why it hurts me and makes me angry when people say Robin (or anyone else) committed the act of a selfish coward, or that it was, ultimately "his choice".

We should never judge or dismiss another's suffering, until we have LITERALLY walked in their shoes.

I believe that, in MOST (perhaps not all) cases.....until a person can truly say in great detail, what they think THEY would personally do, given a certain set of circumstances, they are being cruel to judge a person's choices in those circumstances.






----------------


" 'For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink;

I was a stranger and you didn't take Me in; I was naked and you didn't clothe Me, sick and in prison and you didn't take care of Me'.

Then they too will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or without clothes, or sick, or in prison, and not help You'?

Then He will answer them, 'I assure you: Whatever you did not do for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did not do for Me either.' "









--------


A*al-retentively edited to correct my stubborn numbering system.




+ =

(Message edited by second_wind on September 02, 2014)
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7215
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2014 - 9:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

New Pharmaceutical Combo Caused Robin's Suicide


Williams’s spokeswoman declined to comment when asked by The Mail on Sunday about rumours that the tragic comic’s family blames the medication he was on for 'pushing him over the edge'.

A source said: ‘Robin had recently left rehab. He was on medication for anxiety and depression and had also started taking drugs to combat the early onset of Parkinson’s.

‘Many of these drugs list suicidal thoughts as a possible side effect.

A lot of Robin’s friends are convinced that the cocktail of prescription pills he was on somehow contributed to his mental state deteriorating as quickly as it did.

‘Robin had always suffered from depression and addiction but the diagnosis and treatment of his Parkinson’s was new, as was the combination of drugs he was on.’




.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7216
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2014 - 9:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

This website should be mandatory reading for everybody, especially those who prescribe or consume psychiatric drugs.

http://www.ssristories.org/



SSRI Stories is a collection of over 5,000 stories that have appeared in the media (newspapers, TV, scientific journals) in which prescription drugs were mentioned and in which the drugs may be linked to a variety of adverse outcomes including violence.

Adverse reactions are most likely to occur when starting or discontinuing the drug, increasing or lowering the dose or when switching from one SSRI to another.

Adverse reactions are often diagnosed as bipolar disorder when the symptoms may be entirely iatrogenic (treatment induced).

Withdrawal, especially abrupt withdrawal, from any of these medications can cause severe neuropsychiatric and physical symptoms.

It is important to withdraw extremely slowly from these drugs, often over a period of a year or more, under the supervision of a qualified and experienced specialist.

Withdrawal is sometimes more severe than the original symptoms or problems.



.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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blue
Senior Member
Username: jennyblue

Post Number: 1583
Registered: 3-2007
Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2014 - 10:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I agree w/you SW that we shld not make judgments about people who commit suicide but people do have a right to their own opinion about it. A lot of people believe killing is wrong -- whether it is killing yourself or killing others. The way I understand it, karma will end up taking care of any misconceptions we have -- in the long run. Eventually one simply has the experience that they didnt "get" before.

In Japan "falling on one's sword" was the politically correct thing to do when one suffered a great failure or humiliation. Wanting or not wanting to kill oneself was practically a mute point. I wld hate for suicide, in general, to get that way. Perhaps that is one reason so many people fear/judge it. It is a scary thought that people wld start telling other people to off themselves when they got to a certain age or became "a burden" for someone else.

Yes, suicide is ultimately a choice. But more often than people want to admit, it ends up as the ONLY TRULY RATIONAL ALTERNATIVE to a long, drawn-out death caused by unbearable suffering, which is caused by the removal of all other choices.


2. It's really easy to say "there is always some other choice", which implies that unbearable suffering is a rational choice.

3. It's MUCH HARDER to commit to helping someone make sure there TRULY are no other choices.


Three very good points. My heart tells me we need to fix the things that cause "unbearable suffering" whether it is physical, emotional, or mental. I worry that if we "accept" suicide -- we will never actually try to fix the broader culture.

On a spirit/soul level, I wonder what the consequences are . . . The most obvious are the people who are left behind that loved and valued your presence -- the ones for whom you made a difference. I have also read that an "early departure" on a life means one will have to redo that life until you stick it out to the very end. Others say that your soul wonders that earth and cannot move on into the light until you reach the fate date of your predetermined death. I dont know.

I think you make a very good point about people who commit suicide who do not feel as tho they have a choice. I wld like to think that, in those cases, God agrees with them.
We are the ones we've been waiting for. Hopi Elders 2001.
to be a rock and still to roll . . .
change we can believe in is here -- The Ed Show
Love is the Way ~ Jesus of Nazareth
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Sharon2
Senior Member
Username: sharon2468

Post Number: 5635
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2014 - 10:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

We all come from our own experiences and each of us is unique because of them.
I can only speak of my own and how they have affected me.

I will never really know or understand what another person is feeling and why.
I don't want anyone to suffer. I want us all to be able to feel joy and freedom and peace and love.

I wish you well, always!
"I believe in the sun even if it isn't shining. I believe in love even if I am alone. I believe in God even when He is silent."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7217
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2014 - 10:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

The Suicide of Robin Williams:

Why We Need a Grand Jury Inquest to Investigate It



....Robin Williams, entered a psychiatric facility in Minnesota (July 1, 2014). He had been given an as yet unknown cocktail of prescription drugs that resulted in his losing weight and withdrawing from his loved ones, sleeping, after his discharge later that month, in his darkened bedroom up to 20 hours a day, in an apparent drug-induced stupor.

Williams was said to have developed Parkinson’s Disease (and had been given some new drugs for it), which can commonly be caused by antipsychotic drugs, now often prescribed, off label (i.e., unapproved for such indications by the FDA), for insomnia, especially psycho-stimulant drug-induced insomnia (which Williams suffered from).

It should be mentioned that antipsychotic drugs (like Abilify, Seroquel, Geodon, etc) also commonly cause diabetes, obesity and hyperlipidemia, in addition to the neurological movement disorders that mimic Parkinson’s Disease.

It is also important to note that when a patient suddenly quits antipsychotic drugs (even if first used for non-psychotic indications like insomnia) withdrawal symptoms can occur, such as acute psychoses, hallucinations, insomnia and mania any of which can lead a physician to falsely diagnose schizophrenia or bipolar disorder.

Within weeks after Williams' discharge from Hazelden’s Rehabilitation facility in Lindstrom, MN, he hung himself in the bedroom of his San Francisco home where he was certainly suffering multiple side effects from his cocktail of drugs.

He left no suicide note, but certainly his psychiatrists, psychologists and other staff members at Hazelden know exactly what Williams could have written on such a note. So far Hazelden is mum on what happened to Williams during July’s rehab stay.

Some of Williams's closest friends are claiming that the newly prescribed drugs were what killed him, but the media that is swarming all over the tragic event are avoiding those logical and obvious conclusions; for anybody who is aware of the well-known connections between psychiatric prescription drugs and violence, suidicality, dementia, and irrational thoughts and actions (whether while taking the drugs or withdrawing from them) has already asked him or herself the question: “I wonder what psych drugs Robin was on?”

Knowing that Williams had been under the care of psychiatrists for the last six weeks of his life, certain taboo questions need to be asked and answered.

But don’t hold your breath. There will be no answers unless we get them in the secret details of what happened at Hazelden, including what brain-altering drugs he was on.



There have been hundreds of comments on the internet from amateur arm-chair psychologists spouting obsolete clichés about suicide, mental illness, drug abuse, alcoholism, cocaine addiction, and how "wonderful" prescription drugs have been for depression.

And there have been dozens of dis-informational essays and website commentaries written by professional psychiatrists who have financial or career connections to Big Pharma, Big Psychiatry, Big Medicine and the rehab industries.

Most of those commentaries distract readers from making the connections between suicidality and psych drugs.

Some of the comments I have read have preemptively tried to discredit those who are publicly making those connections.



An inquest would obtain testimony from medical, psychiatric and psycho-pharmaceutical experts such as Peter Breggin, MD, Joseph Glenmullen, MD, Grace Jackson, MD, David Healey, MD, Russell Blaylock, MD, Fred Baughmann, MD and other well-informed medical specialists who don’t own stock in Big Pharma and who know well how dangerous their drugs can be.

Just knowing a little about the life and times of Robin Williams (as would also be the case for that long list of drugged-up Hollywood celebrities that "died too soon") easily disproves most of the amateur or professional theories about his death that have appeared online. The proposed inquest would reveal what happened inside the locked doors of the rehab facility.

What is the major reason that many psych drug skeptics, medical professionals and psychiatric survivors want an inquest in the Williams' suicide? We want to know the names of the ingredients in the cocktail of drugs that had been tried on him (and the dosages and length of time they were taken).

We want to know what side effects he had from the drugs and what his responses were.

We want to know what was the reasoning behind the decision to prescribe unproven drug cocktails on someone whose brain was already adversely affected by the past use of potentially brain damaging drugs.

And we want to know, for the sake of past and future victims of these neurotoxic drugs, if the prescribing practitioners fully informed Williams about the dangers of his treatments, particularly the black box warning that is at the top of every product information packet of every SSRI drug: that the risk of suicide is doubled in those who take them.

And we want to know if Williams knew that the drug cocktails that were prescribed for him had never actually been tested for either short or long-term safety on lab animals or humans?

(It is important to remind ourselves here that no psychiatric multi-drug combinations have ever been approved by the FDA for use on human subjects, with the outrageous exception being the approval for marketing that the FDA gave for the use of the anti-psychotic drug Abilify in combination with SSRI antidepressants [a combination apparently found to be modestly safe and modestly effective in short-term trials] in cases where the SSRI drug alone had failed to relieve the sadness in some subjects.)

Robin Williams ended his life shortly after being prescribed a cocktail of unproven drugs that had never been certified by the FDA as either safe or effective.

The psychiatric drug-taking public deserves to know what were the offending drugs that might have contributed to his anguish, sadness, nervousness, insomnia, sleep deprivation, hopelessness and irrational, very likely drug-induced, suicide.

And the family and friends of Robin Williams certainly deserve to understand the essential facts of the case which, without an inquest, will otherwise just result in a continuation of America’s “mysterious” suicide and violence epidemics, and the continuation of Big Pharma’s unjust gravy train that has been deceiving – and destroying – so many for so long.



--------

There is a lot more to the article; I actually did not post all of it!


.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7218
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2014 - 4:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Blue,

I wish you would directly address my questions #s 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10.

Yes, I ask the hard questions. I hope you will address them directly.

I am reaching out, trying honestly and from the heart, to HAVE A DISCUSSION here.

Thank you for your responses, Blue. As you always do, you made a very kind and well-thought-out post.

I agree with you that we each have a right to our opinions.


I know that you know that I am most definitely very opinionated. However, I try very hard to not put forth my opinions as FACTS; I make conscious effort not to state my opinions as if they were facts.

I am also a person who looks carefully for facts (truth) - despite the FACT that I am also highly emotional.

I know that YOU know that I am a person that also speaks from my own experiences. There is just about NOTHING I have ever posted about here at UC, that does not come from my own personal experiences.

I always make room for other opinions, as long as those opinions are not expressed in a way that attacks me or another person, OR when other's "opinions" completely disregard facts!!!

I don't know any FACTS about Karma, or what "God" would think or feel about anything. I don't KNOW about any past-life or future-life consequences or possibilities. NONE OF US can really do anything but SPECULATE (and perhaps HOPE and or CHOOSE TO BELIEVE) about such things.

I do, however, have a LOT of personal experience with, and know a LOT of facts about this topic (and other topics, as well); facts that I post links to.

I also make sincere efforts to address all points another sincere poster makes. I try my best to make sure the poster knows I read their entire post.

.....


I agree that the blanket "acceptance" of suicide is not a desirable goal, and, to be fair, that is a gross exaggeration of my point.


I obviously agree that the humane and moral and compassionate goal is to find ways, collectively and individually, to alleviate unbearable suffering.

That is exactly why I started this thread, and it is why I asked the questions I did above.

But when people are either unwilling to put forth the effort (or when they are unable, for one reason or another) to help a suffering and suicidal person make sure they have turned over every stone for a solution, then that, in itself, is "accepting their potential suicide".

That is why it is my opinion that those who call people who are considering or have committed suicide "cowards" or "weak" and say the have or had "a choice", are reacting that way to assuage their own guilt for not having stepped up to at least TRY to save a life.


.


As far as families left behind, of course, there are untold tragic stories about these folks. And we hear and read about them all the time.

But I wonder if people ever think about the probably huge number of suicides who, one way or another, had no family, or anyone else, that cared about them? Ever wonder how many suicides had nobody to whom they mattered?

And God forbid that I (or anyone) should dare to bring up how many suffering people actually had family members (and in cases of entertainers, even corporations) waiting to profit off their deaths, whether from deliberate suicide or drug overdoses. In many if not most states, after a life insurance policy has been in effect for 2 years, it will pay a death benefit for suicide, unless it can be proven that a known suicide risk was withheld from the insurance company when the policy was purchased.










.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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blue
Senior Member
Username: jennyblue

Post Number: 1584
Registered: 3-2007
Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2014 - 5:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

6. Sometimes, there just is no real solution to end suffering, except to end suffering. And that is true, even if the sufferer is rich, and has what others see as "loving family" and "success", and unlimited access to "the best" "medical intervention".

7. What about those who have no money, insurance, family or other support?


8. Is it your belief that there just is no amount of suffering bad enough to warrant ending one's life?


9. How much effort would you be willing to expend, to help a person (ANY person) look for alternatives to suicide, when that person has seemingly exhausted all other solutions?

10. Can you not see that there are often situations that there simply are no "medical solutions" for, even if money were no object?



6/8. Pardon my shortsightedness but, to me, my answer/s wld continue to be the same as in the previous post. I am having difficulty seeing the subtle differences in some of your questions. While I MIGHT, depending on the circumstances, try to dissuade someone from committing suicide . . . I repeat: I think it is an individual choice. A person who commits suicide will find out pretty quick whether or not they made the right choice for them. To me, suicide is kinda like abortion in that way. I dont think suicide, in of itself, is something that damns one soul or lessons God's love for you.

As a culture, I think suicide shld be discouraged because of all the reasons/possible reasons I state above -- including one I forgot -- when "suicide" is the determination -- even w/some rather flimsy motives -- it seems there is no investigation that it might be a murder.

I think a lot of people who are said to have committed suicide are murdered. We allow ourselves to kill others under very specific circumstances. It seems that some guidelines for suicide shld not be any different. I don't think we shld ever become neutral on killing others or oneself.

7. At the very least . . . the person committing suicide wont be leaving behind any people to whom they might feel responsible. I dont think having insurance is necessary a good thing these days. I am grateful my coverage (back in the day) ran out because medical intervention (for me) was just making things worse.

9. I think that, based on my own experience, all one can really do for someone who wants to commit suicide is be there for them. Keep a space open in your heart for them -- try not to cut them off or just ignore them.

10. I am not sure that there are medical solutions to suicide at present. I agree w/all your points about psych meds -- in fact, I am not even sure one needs to move into psych meds to push a person to suicide with medication. The overprescribing of just about everything and the adverse ways they mix together . . . is bad enough to push a lotta people over an emotional edge eventually -- particularly when paired w/poor nutrition and GMO and pesticide and synthetic chemical concoctions that pass for food.

_________

In many ways today -- many people are "committing suicide" in small steps every day when they made poor lifestyle choices. Are you not "killing yourself" when you eat stuff you know is bad for you (or avoid looking into it sufficiently to justify your continued bad choices)? How about people living on the coasts who refuse to look at what's going on with the sea level and climate change -- are they not deciding that death is preferable to moving? We make choices each day that lead to life or death. Suicide/murder are just very obvious ones.

(Message edited by jennyblue on September 03, 2014)
We are the ones we've been waiting for. Hopi Elders 2001.
to be a rock and still to roll . . .
change we can believe in is here -- The Ed Show
Love is the Way ~ Jesus of Nazareth
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Sharon2
Senior Member
Username: sharon2468

Post Number: 5637
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2014 - 5:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Blue, you make a good point that we are killing ourselves a little every day just not all at once.
Bad habits, bad diet, bad choices.

Self destructive behavior is like playing Russian Roulette.
"I believe in the sun even if it isn't shining. I believe in love even if I am alone. I believe in God even when He is silent."
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Mama Shine
Senior Member
Username: mama_shine

Post Number: 18502
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2014 - 8:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I saw this on facebook and it about
sums it up. I have been there and so
has my daughter.A hell I hope I NEVER
go to again.

~~~


Depression is such a cruel punishment. There are no fevers, no rashes, no blood tests to send people scurrying in concern. Just the slow erosion of the self, as insidious as any cancer. And, like cancer, it is essentially a solitary experience. A room in hell with only your name on the door.

- Unknown
The greatest thing you'll ever learn
Is just to love and be loved in return.
~Nature Boy

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Sharon2
Senior Member
Username: sharon2468

Post Number: 5638
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2014 - 7:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

You are right, Mama.

As much a family as we were, my husband especially, thought I didn't love him anymore. It took a toll on all of us. He told me that he didn't think I cared any longer about any of us. What could I say??? I DON'T CARE! But I didn't know why because I used to care.

They thought I had just become cold and distant. It wasn't by choice and the guilt was terrible.
I learned to ACT normal but I didn't FEEL normal. This went on for about ten years.

Like Mama said, "it (depression) is essentially a solitary experience" but it affects every aspect of your life.
"I believe in the sun even if it isn't shining. I believe in love even if I am alone. I believe in God even when He is silent."
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blue
Senior Member
Username: jennyblue

Post Number: 1585
Registered: 3-2007
Posted on Friday, September 05, 2014 - 10:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I agree MamaShine and Sharon about how each case of depression is different and it is a kind of solitary hell that (in my case) nobody but yourself can bring you out of it -- but if people can just "be there" -- it helps a whole lot.

It sounds simple -- just "be there" but its not. In my experience, people who are depressed are often "cold and distant"/detached but they also [can] have outbursts of emotion which can really isolate them from other people -- even those who love them the most (depending upon the severity and frequency of their outbursts). These "outbursts" are like a steam valve opening releasing the pressure -- and when that is removed (say by medications or behavior modification) -- no more "release" of pressure resulting often in suicide/murder.

While I wldnt want to bring this up with most people -- given the nature of Unknown Country and the concepts we are willing to discuss - - -

imo, depression is so widespread because of the fact that people are being "abducted" -- whether by humans, aliens, nature spirits, whatever -- and things happen to them/us which wld make any sane person not just afraid -- but extremely angry. Tho we/they try to block these extremely painful and humiliating memories -- we cannot block them completely, especially those of us who have been abducted on a frequent basis during at least a part of our lives. I believe this leads to many cases of severe depression -- certainly it was the case with mine.

I believe we suppress these events because we really seem to have no recourse. At first it may simply be an inability to process the information. The experience "does not compute." But if/when one does confront such an experience -- Where does one go with it when one's culture and most people within it -- refuse to recognize such experiences? It comes back to self being the solution -- finding and utilizing your own tools for self-expression because "to be" is the opposite of depression (which, imo, primarily is a suppression of self).
We are the ones we've been waiting for. Hopi Elders 2001.
to be a rock and still to roll . . .
change we can believe in is here -- The Ed Show
Love is the Way ~ Jesus of Nazareth
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Buddie
Senior Member
Username: buddie

Post Number: 6544
Registered: 3-2008
Posted on Friday, September 05, 2014 - 10:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I don't know Why I don't
Get depressed ..
Or is this changing the
subject?
I can't but wonder where I'm bound
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7220
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Friday, September 05, 2014 - 10:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

This is for you, buddie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmzVEPgBsYU


.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7221
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Friday, September 05, 2014 - 11:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

And another, in honor of buddie......the best friend anybody could ever have!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qde5NMy7WTU







.

(Message edited by second_wind on September 05, 2014)
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7231
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, September 08, 2014 - 11:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Just discovered this beautiful, sweet, intimate interview with Robin. It is THE most intimate and moving interview of all I have seen.......and I have spent hours watching interviews with him.

It might be TOO intimate for some. It is PAINFULLY intimate at times. It clearly made him squirm....and yet, he was HONEST and sincere in all his responses.

His body language is so telling, and yet, it never contradicts what he is saying, in only reinforces it.

One of the most intimate times is in Part 2, when he talks about how, after he got famous, the drugs were practically forced on him. I know that's not a new concept, but his telling is more touching, to me, than any other similar telling of the same issue by anyone else.





Part 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1NYrN1-koA



Part 2


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WC37y79CzkM


Part 3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhBiXETg1f0


Part 4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHrQa9R2Zg0&list=UUVA6M35XooDZS4yykryk4sA








I miss you, Robin. I'm so grateful for what you left for us.


I watched "Good Will Hunting" for the 3rd time the other night. Such a good film!


.....


I don't know why all the urls didn't post as links, but I'm sure that any who want to watch, can copy and paste, or even navigate on youtube itself.

It will be worth the effort if you are interested.





(Message edited by second_wind on September 08, 2014)
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7232
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, September 08, 2014 - 11:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

In the above interview, I have never seen him do such a straight interview, with practically NO riffing. The instances of riffing are so minor, compared to what we have come to expect of him.


Amazing.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7233
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, September 08, 2014 - 12:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Also, in the above interview, she asks what is the most common misconception about him.

He responded without hesitation;

"That I'm manic."

Then he explains.




I am really stunned by this interview. It is NOTHING LIKE most of the interviews we see with Robin. This one should be required watching.


.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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prisonersdilema01
New member
Username: prisonersdilema01

Post Number: 1
Registered: 9-2014
Posted on Friday, September 12, 2014 - 1:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

If anyone interested there is a great book on the subject of how psychiatric medications cause the very symptoms they are supposed to treat. The Name of the Book as Anatomy of An Epidemic, by Robert Whitaker.

Many of these meds were approved with questionable data. And some were created to mimic street drugs like Cocaine, this is why they often cause manic symptoms, and delusional thinking.}

According to one of Robin Williams friends he was started on psychiatric meds in a recent rehab stint, he had been reluctant to take them because he was concerted that they would affect his ability to perform.

(Message edited by prisonersdilema01 on September 12, 2014)
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7236
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2014 - 4:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Here it is, now 7 weeks since Robin's death, and everyone has forgotten about him.

It is also no big surprise that there has STILL been no release of the results of toxicology tests done on him.

If he was on any SSRI, and/or any current med for "Parkinsons", I will be shocked if we EVER hear about it in the media. In other words, I will be shocked if the toxicology reports are ever released to media outlets.



I would have bet money on it...........




"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 7237
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2014 - 5:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

And, Rob Schneider, who came out and stated that the new drug combo Robin had been on, was to blame for his suicide...........has now been silenced on the matter.

Not only has he been "officially debunked" by doctors publicly, but his tweets on the subject have been removed from his twitter account.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Sharon2
Senior Member
Username: sharon2468

Post Number: 5662
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2014 - 9:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I was just thinking the same thing about Robin Williams. It has become old news. At first, people are in shock...then they accept it and life goes on. It doesn't seem right but LIFE ALWAYS GOES ON!

'Adapting to change' is to live successfully.

When drugs are involved there is always risk.
People can only make informed decisions. Sometimes the information we need is not always available.

The longer I live the more I realize I know very little.
"I believe in the sun even if it isn't shining. I believe in love even if I am alone. I believe in God even when He is silent."

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