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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4454
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Friday, April 02, 2010 - 1:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

There are certain members of mine and my hubby's family that have this "magical" ability to turn me into a six year old child, spilling my guts to them. It's weird, it's like they can put me into some sort of trance and are able to extract the most personal information from me. (Maybe that's exactly what they are doing.)

Afterwards, once I'm either off of the phone with them, or away from them, I just want to kick myself for running my mouth. They can get info from me that I would never even reveal to my closest friend, much less them, if I were thinking clearly. (Brainwashed?)



You hit the nail right on the head, and clearly, you and I MUST have families who are operating from the same "instruction manual".



wondering if this MC is something that is, maybe even unknown to our handlers, being perpetrated on certain children (us), from birth. And it's people like us, that just don't conform, or eventually stop conforming, which usually doesn't end well. We are constantly being "punished" for this nonconformity. And they will pursue us to the death, either ours or theirs. And when they die, and we still haven't been "broken" then there is always someone else to to inherit that position over us.

I wonder if we'll ever be free.




Have you come to the conclusion that this actually IS what's going on in your life? That it IS MC?

Do you have the same kind of issues with your own family? (If you have already mentioned your family, as opposed to your husband's, forgive me, and please, remind me.)





As for starting this thread, I started it for a specific reason. I started it as a reaction to being attacked and triggered here on the board.

Everything I posted, songs included, related directly or indirectly, to that issue.

When I post things like "the balance", and a couple of other things, it is my way of "wishful thinking", and using music to communicate not only "the way things are", but the way I wish they could be".

Then, no sooner did I begin recovering from those attacks and triggers, when, the next thing I know, the triggers were coming at me in real life.

THAT IS HOW IT WORKS.

Whatever the dominant force in our lives is, will be "where we are coming from". Most people who have not had abuse and MC in their histories, cannot comprehend how every conversation leads back there.

I have developed many different "coping mechanisms" since I woke up to this crap in my life.

That is what this thread is about; coping mechanisms, and yes, LESSONS.



I still find in "interesting" that I was being triggered by passive/agressive and hateful attacks here on the board, while at the same time being triggered in real life.....and in both places, I was being triggered in ways that the perpetrators KNEW I am most vulnerable.

Not only that, but a perp (whether online, in real life, and whether "witting" or not) will not only bait and trigger us over our most vulnerable areas, but will be CERTAIN to do so WHEN WE ARE ALREADY AT A LOW POINT. In other words, just like VULTURES, they will strike when we are weak and hurt.


That's how it works!



Roxie, yes, I suppose that some who perp us ARE unwitting, to one degree or another.

I think the definition of a "narcissist", or a "sociopath" is that they truly believe that they are the only important one in any exchange.

So, it's no surprise that this type of personality is looked for by those *The Controllers) who would "train up" perps to do their dirty work for them.

That way, they don't have to worry about trying to "break" or "turn" someone with ethics.







Roxie, I, too, am personally familiar with the "phone recording" thing!!! And that's all I'm going to say about that!
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Roxie
Intermediate Member
Username: roxanne

Post Number: 103
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Friday, April 02, 2010 - 8:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

SW:

I had never heard of MC as it relates to the population, at large, until I came to this board and started reading and posting, and it was you that directed me to the archives about MC.

And yes, it makes sense, now.

I was raised in an abusive household. My sibblings and I were separated at young age and we were each raised in abusive homes and each of the homes were relative's homes.

I supposed being raised that way, it seemed "normal" at the time, having nothing else to compare it to. But, now, after researching this MC subject, well, it fits.

So many odd things happened in my childhood: the little school house in the woods, the strange "dentists" at my school, me, as an infant, being "shipped" alone, by bus, from Maryland to Georgia, the strange and sudden disappearance of my father, my mother marrying a Warden of a prison, who abused me and my siblings and ran our house like a prison. (Isn't there some indication that prisoners were used in experimentation?) And I just now remembered that he attended a military school, but I don't ever remember hearing of him being in the military, itself. And,speaking of which, my grandfather, before marrying my grandmother, was a civilian worker in what he called "The Concentration Camp" which I believe was located in or close to Savannah, Ga. Maybe it was in Brunswick, Ga. I don't remember.

Although, none of the people who raised me were ever in the military, we did live in a town that had (and I think still has) a Marine base and there was an Air Force base there, as well, when I was younger, and some sort of "silo" location, not sure which branch of the military, but it was called "The Old Nike Base", which was abandoned and the source of much amusement for kids, like my husband who used to ride his bicycle there with other kids to explore. (I have never seen it, myself.)

As far as my husband's family, I was already "primed" for abuse by my own family, so walking into that family, I was pretty "cooperative", at least for a while, but later, I began to question the actions of my mil, which, of course, made me the "troublemaker", because no one else ever questioned "The Queen".

Anyway, I keep thinking about how these people in my life, NOT being directly connected to the military, could have been subjected to MC, but seem to be inflicting the same thing on their children, like they were programmed to do it. How could this have been done?

The only thing I can come up with, is during that time, way back in the 40's and 50's women were given anesthesia during childbirth. (I know this is a "wild" speculation.) But, what better way to perform some covert experimentation. (Just throwing it out there.)

And yes, the triggering. Even though we are not "in contact" with my hubby's family, for the most part, they will, without fail, rear their ugly heads around Christmas, birthdays and anniversaries, and recently, around the anniversary of my mother's death, which is extremely weird, because they have never once, even when she died, said one single word to me about her death. Not once! It's like it never happened. They didn't call, attend the funeral, send flowers or even a sympathy card. And yet, every year around that time (April) they will find a way to do something to make my life miserable.

And the songs! I no longer listen to the radio for that reason. I just plug in my Moody CD and skip over any triggering songs.

It is odd how these people, and even strangers seem to know when we are at our most vulnerable. I swear I used to think I had a big, flashing sign over my head, or on my back that said "Kick me, I'm down." These people know, somehow they know and somehow, somewhere, someone, in control, throws a giant switch that puts these people in our lives into attack mode.

Maybe our "triggerers" are being triggered, as well.
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Mama Shine
Senior Member
Username: mama_shine

Post Number: 11455
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Friday, April 02, 2010 - 7:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Roxie,

You talking about your MIL...it's like
how could anything be so near the truth
I have with my mil and husband. I could
fill a book and not be a tenth into it. Shes 87 years old now and will flat kick yo azz. Lawds,
I finally after all these years just gave up. It's like my H and mil are married and I'm some strange entity that they are...hmmm...I want to say responsible for but it's something else..best just shut up on the subject. I was born and raised in Macon, Ga. met my H here in
New Orleans. I'm the outsider...his Daddy was
in on it as well but he's gone on to his reward.

You know, it's gotten to where I just don't care
that much anymore. Let em have their routine stuff and whispery phone calls. Frees me up to
do my thing, which is playing my piano and messing around the water and gardens and dreaming my dreams. Oh well, yes..they do still irritate and make me furious but what can I do?

Okay, I ranted a bit and thanks SW and Roxie for
listening.
I must create a system, or be enslaved by another man's. ~William Blake

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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4458
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2010 - 3:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I am feeling so unbelievably tired, and when I feel like this, one of the things I feel least able to do is post about these issues.

Interesting how that works, huh?

I am going to respond to some of the things you said, Roxie.

"my grandfather, before
marrying my grandmother, was a civilian worker in what he called "The Concentration Camp" which I believe was located in or close to Savannah, Ga. Maybe it was in Brunswick, Ga. I don't remember."




Do you know what this place actually was?


Anyway, I keep thinking about how these people in my life, NOT being directly connected to the military, could have been subjected to MC,
but seem to be inflicting the same thing on their children, like they were programmed to do it. How could this have been done?



Through familial, generational, ritual abuse. That does NOT necessarily mean "satanic ritual abuse", which most would immediately think of when they hear the words "ritual abuse".

Ritual abuse is simply abuse, psychological, physical, mental, emotional, financial, you name it, that is perpetrated upon children, is "passed down" over generations, and that is performed in a very systematic and, yes "ritualized" way.

It may or may not have elements of religious (or other) ritual to it, and it may not.

Children, and adults, who have been severely neglected and/or abused, have major indicatiors, a "psychological profile". Interestingly, it is the COMBINATION of high-IQ, high-sensitivity, high suggestibility (therefore easily dissociative and easily hypnotized), and abuse history, that the organized MC programs looked for.

Adults who have this in their families, are almost sure to abuse their children, AND, are very susceptible to programming themselves.

Children (and adults, for that matter) who have been involved in this generational abuse, are LOOKED FOR by the groups responsible for the past AND PRESENT MKULTRA-style mind control programs.

They are not only susceptible to additional programming themselves, but they are also extremely vulnerable to blackmail, threats, bribery, etc., so that they become their children's primary handlers. Siblings can become handlers of each other in the same way.

There does not have to be any actual military involvement of parents who might "turn over" their children, or participate willingly for one reason or another, in "official" programs that are sanctioned by military, CIA, etc., and are often conducted at either military facilities, or other institutions.

I am so tired right now, I am having a really hard time expressing all this. I hope it is making sense.


Maybe our "triggerers" are being triggered, as well.


Exactly. That is part of what I was saying above.






That's all I've got for tonight.



"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4459
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2010 - 3:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Mama, even the SMALL amount you have posted, just lately, makes me understand even more, why you don't post about these things more often.


"Whispery phone calls"????



Wow!
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4461
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2010 - 6:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

And speaking of songs, that speak FOR us.......



This one, even though it was written as if to a lover......it can easily fit my feelings at the moment about my sister, and a couple of other family members, and a couple of other narcissist controllers I have had in my life over the years........but at the moment, mostly my sister.



--------



What in the world did I do to deserve you?
I don't understand why you treat me that way
You knew you were everything I ever wanted
You had your own ways of makin' me pay

Then you took it just a little to far
Now I see you for what you are
I don't need the heartache anymore

Lovin' you was an endless fight
I was wrong and you were always right
But look what happened when I called your bluff
When the truth comes out
You aint' so tough

You turned me into an emotional prisoner
You hit me with words that cut to the bone
Then you kissed me and made me believe that I needed you
And think I could never survive on my own

Never thought that I would break away
Now I see right through your power play
And I don't feel so helpless after all

Lovin' you was an endless fight
I was wrong and you were always right
But look what happened when I called your bluff
When the truth comes out
Hey, you aint' so tough

You took me too far to forgive it
That was your last mistake
That was your last mistake

Lovin' you was an endless fight
I was wrong and you were always right
But look what happened when I called your bluff
When the truth comes out
You aint' so tough

You take it all but you don't give back
You feel strong when the odds are stacked
There comes a time when enough's enough
When the truth comes out
You aint' so tough
You aint' so tough





----------------


And this one, is what I wish I had the nerve to say to her.





You can tell everyone I'm a darn disgrace
Drag my name all over the place
I don't care anymore.

You can tell everybody 'bout the state I'm in
You won't catch me crying 'cause I just can't win
I don't care anymore
I don't care anymore

I don't care what you say
I don't play the same games you play

'cause I've been talking to the people that you call your friends
And it seems to me there's a means to an end
They don't care anymore.

And as for me, I can sit here and bide my time
I got nothing to lose if I speak my mind
I don't care anymore
I don't care no more

I don't care what you say
We never played by the same rules anyway
I won't be there anymore
Get out of my way - let me by
I've got better things to do with my time
I don't care anymore
I don't care anymore
I don't care anymore
I don't care anymore.

Well, I don't care now what you say
'cause everyday
I'm feeling fine with myself
And I don't care now what you say
Hey! I'll do alright by myself
'cause I know

'cause I remember all the times I tried so hard
And you laughed in my face 'cause you held the cards
I don't care anymore.

And I really ain't bothered what you think of me
'cause all I want of you is just to let me be
I don't care any more
You hear? I don't care no more

I don't care what you say
I never did believe you much anyway
I won't be there no more
So get out of my way - let me by
I got better things to do with my time
I don't care anymore
D'you hear I don't care anymore
I don't care no more.
You listening?
I don't care no more!

"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Roxie
Intermediate Member
Username: roxanne

Post Number: 104
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2010 - 8:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Mama:

You said your mil is 87. They do seem to live forever, don't they? And they seem to get meaner with each passing year.


Ah, Macon, GA, The Gnat Line!


SW:

Re: the "Concentration Camp" my grandfather worked at:

This was the term used by my grandparents. I've googled it and found that there were Japanese Interment Camps, which I think is what they were referring to. I do remember "something" about Japanese. While googling, I found a small blurb about camp locations, and Georgia was listed, but it didn't list the town.

The story I was told was that my grandfather was a civilian cook in a concentration camp. My grandmother had a wooden box at her home that she used as our toy box, which was a large open box, painted with hearts and her name, and I was told that my grandfather had a "prisoner" in the "concentration camp" make it for her. I have, in my possession a pillow with some poem stitched on it, which was also supposed to have been made by some "prisoner" in the same camp.

This would have been in the 1940's, but my mother was born in 1938, so they would have already been married when he worked there, not dating as I had thought.

Also, the location that I gave as Savannah or Brunswick may be incorrect, as well. My home town, Albany, Georgia, had an Air Force and a Marine Base. Turner AFB was closed (moved) when I was a child. I believe the Marine Base is still there. Point being, this Interment Camp may have been located in Albany, which makes more sense that he worked there, but I can't find anything on the Web about it.


I have no way of asking about this as my grandfather is dead and my grandmother has dementia.

Anyway, just wanted to clear that up.

I wanted to say, that you have really opened my eyes to all this MC stuff. It all makes sense now.

Love the songs.
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moonbeam
Advanced Member
Username: mia

Post Number: 424
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2010 - 9:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I don't like to talk about the family problems I have, but you girls have hit the nail on the head. Feeling very emotional right now after reading your post. Hugs to all of you.
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Roxie
Intermediate Member
Username: roxanne

Post Number: 105
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Sunday, April 04, 2010 - 7:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Moonbeam:

Hugs to you, too.
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moonbeam
Advanced Member
Username: mia

Post Number: 426
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Sunday, April 04, 2010 - 5:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Thanks Roxie
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4462
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 04, 2010 - 7:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Roxie, I could only find one reference to internment camp(s) in Georgia.

"There were nearly 70 internment camps spread out over the United States. ... Camps were also found in Tennessee, Hawaii, Florida, Georgia, and Illinois. ..."

the link for this search result came from classroom.jc-schools.net

However, it was linked as a PowerPoint presentation, and I don't have that program, nor do I want to download the viewer.

But still, at least it is a reference to the fact that there were camps (or was a camp) in Georgia.

Isn't that weird that there is so little reference to this online?

It is such an ugly part of our history; one of many, unfortunately.





Moonbeam, I know it may seem that the opposite is true, but I don't "like" to talk about this stuff in my family, either.

But we all cope in whatever way we need to, and posting here is a coping mechanism for me, as well as a form of defiance, lame though it might be.

I don't blame you for not wanting to talk about this stuff.

For those of you who live with family, who also have access to your computer, I can imagine that you would be VERY hesitant to talk about some stuff.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4464
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 04, 2010 - 8:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

After not hearing from her for a week (I didn't try to contact her, either), sister called yesterday afternoon.

I have been keeping the volume turned down on my phones and ans. machine.

She didn't leave any message, she was just saying "hello, are you there? This is (her name)." (Like I didn't know who it was!) This is what she does, because we always had an agreement that she would speak to the machine long enough to give me time to get to the phone. Then, if I still don't answer, then she leaves a message.

However, my ans. machine is really sensitive, and sometimes, if she is calling from her cell phone, if she doesn't speak for even 3 or 4 seconds, my machine cuts off the call. It is like the cell phone doesn't send out a clear enough audio signal to keep the machine recording, unless she is actually speaking.


Anyway, she didn't call back, nor has she emailed.

I guess I better send her an email, just to let her know I am alive, but that I don't feel like talking.....so that she won't do her passive-agressive thing and start "calling the hospital" or even worse......




Cancer Horoscopes
(June 21 - Jul 22)

Sunday, Apr 4th, 2010 -- You may be rather fixed now about how you see your future, and are willing to make changes in a relationship in order to bring it into alignment with your goals. Needless to say, this requires the cooperation of someone else. Although others can sound sincere as they acknowledge your needs, their actions might not be as supportive as their words. Don't expect too much or you could easily slip into playing the blame game. Even in the best-case scenario, transformation will take time.





another one, that comes as a "weekly horoscope", says for tomorrow"

Apr 5, 2010

Trying to hide your feelings from someone? Well, then, run like the wind, and avoid them at all costs. If you happen to catch their eye, there'll be no secrets.






Yep.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Roxie
Intermediate Member
Username: roxanne

Post Number: 106
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 8:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

SW:

What you found on the Web about the Interment Camps was the same thing I found. No mention as to where these camps were in each state. It is odd.

This is really bugging me. I'll call my brother, who was raised by them, and see if he has any more info about this.

I don't know where you find these horoscopes, but they certainly seem to apply to you. Take heed, my friend.

UGGGG, I hate when people like your sister call with those "all so caring" attitudes. And now that "we're" on to that worn-out game, the "appearance of concern" becomes a big ole honkin' flashing sign, that says, "WARNING - YOU ARE ABOUT TO BE HOOVERED," complete with the sound of one of those Air Raid Horns! We know that any contact will result in them sucking the life, information and supply, for them.

We know that no matter what information we give them will be used against us. If we tell them we are doing well, without them, then they will make it their life's mission to see to it we are miserable. If we tell them we are having some difficulty, no matter how small, they will use it, will much glee, to let us either feel guilty for feeling badly, or as an excuse to worm themselves back in to our lives, to make it all better, for them.

It's a no-win situation for us. I wish there were a way for you to break all contact with this woman, but we know that would only end badly. I like the idea of you sending her an email. That way you can say what you want, without having her put you into that hypnotic trance, wherein she can extract information for you, that you don't what her to have.

You know, I just thought of a little trick I used on my mil, way back when I was in contact with her, which you might have already figured out for yourself; whenever she started in with her questioning, or rather interrogation, I started questioning her on some obscure bit of info that she had inadvertently exposed about herself. She "suddenly" had to get off of the phone to tend to some "pressing matter." She suddenly didn't have time to answer any questions from me. Well, it worked for me, but then, using that tactic could backfire for you. Just a suggestion.

Take care.
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moonbeam
Advanced Member
Username: mia

Post Number: 427
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 9:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

SW, I don't have any probs talking about high strangeness on the puter, because those eyes out there lurking had experiences themselves. But yeah, they are lurking and family knows I come here, so I refrain from going into certain subjects that could make my life a living h*ll. I know you don't like talking about this, but it is helpful not just to you, but alot of other people, if your family doesn't know where to read.

There is something I will say. My beautiful children tell me I am not like them. They tell me they had the most wonderful childhood, even with all the weird events they have witnessed themselves, that any kid could have. When they told me a few years ago, I cried like a baby, because I knew I had accomplished something I never thought I could do. I spent the weekend with my girls and grandkids and it was so wonderful! When it is just us we are so happy. (I did receive several phone calls from other relatives though and the interrogation started again.)

How is it we fall into the same trap over and over again? Why do we still go along with this even when we are not willing to? I need to make it stop but I don't know how. I have tried turning the tables, but still I fall and fall hard. I'm an idiot.
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Roxie
Intermediate Member
Username: roxanne

Post Number: 107
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 11:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

SW:

Something else I thought of; all my in-laws have this generic response whenever asked, "How are you," or some sort of greeting, to which they always, every. stinkin'. time. respond with "Same ole, same ole." Which I came to realize translates to, "Ain't none of your business."

I used this same response to them, a number of times, to be met with wide-eyed, open-mouthed shock. How dare I not reveal ever detail of my life!

Not to be deterred by my evasive, "same ole, same ole" response, they pressed on with, but "what have you been doing, feeling," whatever. And I, feeling cornered and frustrated, gave them a second by second, detailed list of things, like, for instance," I awoke at 6:00 AM, went to the bathroom, peed, washed my hands and brushed my teeth, went to the bedroom and made the bed, got dressed, went to the kitchen and made a pot of coffee..." well, you get the point.

I'm not sure if they got "my" point or not, but it would shut them up. And, of course, "I" was being "difficult," afterall, they were "just concerned."

I don't know, maybe you can use the "same ole, same ole" line with your sister. It would be up to her interpretation as to what "same ole" is, and you know she'll always have her own interpretation.

But then again, these people always seem to know exactly what's going on in our lives. It's like they are doing some sort of follow-up of a set of circumstances, which they have somehow put into motion, to determine how we are responding. It's rhetorical, really, like asking someone who's just been hit by a bus, how they are feeling. They "know" the answer, they just like to see us squirm. They want to know that we are squirming.

I know it sounds like I am giving them more power over my life than they deserve, but, after a lifetime of this crap, I'd be a fool not to, at the very least, be wary, if not downright paranoid.
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Roxie
Intermediate Member
Username: roxanne

Post Number: 108
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 11:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Moonbeam:

I know your post was directed at SW, but I thought I'd respond, as well.

Honey, your are NOT and idiot. You've probably been conditioned to believe that, all these years.

All we can do is see them for what they are, and that, in a sense gives us some power, what little it may be, over them. At least "we" have some idea of what we're up against, even if it took a lifetime to figure it out.

All I can suggest is, don't take the bait and don't give them any info to go on.

And see, your children have told you what a wonderful childhood they had. I could have never told my mother that.

But, I made certain that my son knows, without a shadow of a doubt that I love and cherish him. I made certain that he would never, ever have any doubts about that. And really, all I did was just be, what I considered, a loving, caring, normal mother.
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moonbeam
Advanced Member
Username: mia

Post Number: 428
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 11:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Roxie, it was meant for you too, not just SW as I forgot while writing to direct the last part to the both of you.

That is exactly what I did Roxie, just tried to be loving and normal and when the girls told me they knew the difference, I was floored! I am anything but perfect, but I finally did something right in my life! Took me awhile to even believe my ears. They are young adults and it took me my whole life to start figuring this stuff out. Kids are so smart these days.

And yes, conditioned I was, and still am when I am with siblings and parents and even cousins. It has led me down the road of low self esteem and heart break. But you and Sw are soooo right, and we do have an idea of what is happening and partially why it happens. But, I still fall down in that dark pit when we all get together and sooo many times I just wanted to get up, tell them where to get off, and walk out that door. I can't do it and really just want to change it, but nothing seems to work. When I try and be a smart ars they tell me I'm just being one and embarrass me even more. And it just so happens parents (mom and stepdad) and sister and her hubby live next door. Brother comes to see them maybe 2 or 3 times a year and brings family with him. So, if I don't show it is not hard for them to find me.

It has been like hanging a pork chop in front of a dog and saying go ahead and take, it only to have the dog jump and the string pulled so fast they never get a bite. Just one of the techniques they use. Roxie, at least it is your in laws and not your own flesh and blood. I am sure you are a fine mother too.

Ok, that is all I am going to say. Shut my mouth.
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Roxie
Intermediate Member
Username: roxanne

Post Number: 109
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 12:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Moonbeam:


I was subjected to the same antics from my own mother and her family and my step-father, until they all died.

I was so broken by the time I had in-laws, they (the in-laws) were able to take full advantage of me as well as me being abused by my own family at the same time. I don't know how I survived it.

I didn't realize your family lived so close. That is terrible, and breaks my heart for you I thought I had it bad while living in the same town as all of my abusers.

I do know what you mean about the pork chop.

Don't feel like you have to shut up on my account, but I understand about revealing too much info.
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Mama Shine
Senior Member
Username: mama_shine

Post Number: 11467
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Monday, April 05, 2010 - 5:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Well, I said to myself to shut my trap
but I must post this cause it's eating at
me way too much. Yesterday my mil drives
across the lake (she lives in New Orleans
east) and comes to our house. She knows full
well that I have agoraphobic symptoms and don't
feel comfortable with people dropping in. So
she pulls up in front of the house and honks the horn or something for my H to let him know
she is there. Then she comes in my courtyard and
starts nosing around. By this time I'm hold up in my bedroom praying she'll go. Finally, I see her car pull off. I get in a nervous screaming match with him wondering why he didn't warn me she was coming so I could brace myself and he finally said he didn't know she was. I finally calmed down. Then I go to the kitchen to fix some coffee and there on the counter by the coffee is this friggin obnoxious fake aquarium with fish floating in a regimented back and forth way with an irritating electric hum. It was almost the size of a computer screen. I became dizzy and disoriented and was afraid to admit it cause I knew her azz had brought
it over. I finally mustered up the nerve to say
"will you take that fish thing in your room because it makes me nervous?" lol, he said I don't want it....I'll give it to ------.." Well this may seem petty and trivial but it just
is one of the things that makes me look ungrateful and sensitive that she loves to
bring out in me. I must add this, she is fairly well to do and the money thing is held over my H and his sister to give her supreme power. Oh well, now I've vented. Hope I haven't made a total azz of myself. Whew that electronic aquarium,
dammit, like I can't walk in my back yard to the water and see the real thing. Jeeze.
I must create a system, or be enslaved by another man's. ~William Blake

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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4465
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2010 - 4:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

This is going to be a long one, so please, bear with me.




It's like they are doing some sort of follow-up of a set of circumstances, which they have somehow put into motion, to determine how we are responding. It's rhetorical, really, like asking someone who's just been hit by a bus, how they are feeling. They "know" the answer, they just like to see us squirm. They want to know that we are squirming.

I think that is exactly right, especially with my sister. Thing is, she knows when I am squirming, but she still has to try to let me know that she can and will "check up" to verify, which is actually her way of rubbing it in.

Other thing is, it's like you also said:

We know that no matter what information we give them will be used against us. If we tell them we are doing well, without them, then they will make it their life's mission to see to it we are miserable. If we tell them we are having some difficulty, no matter how small, they will use it, will much glee, to let us either feel guilty for feeling badly, or as an excuse to worm themselves back in to our lives, to make it all better, for them.


And with my family, their specialty is to either perpetrate some form of attack during times when I am either really ill, or having other major stresses.....OR, at the very least, they will simply demonstrate how little they actually care, and just how evil their intentions are, by completely DISMISSING any illness, stress, grief, problems, whatever.

My sister's thing is to give a token "oh, I'm so sorry you are (whatever), and then she will get quiet for a moment. If I begin to "cry on her shoulder", she will just sit there in silence, until it dawns on me (for the bazillionth time) that she couldn't care less, so I will dutifully stop talking about me, and change the subject back to HER life. If I comment on her dead silence (by saying "are you still there?) she will say, "I'm just listening".

I wish I had the nerve to tell her that there is "sitting there like a silent stone wall", and then there is ACTIVE, compassionate listening. But she knows this. It is part of the game.



You said to Moonbeam:

I didn't realize your family lived so close. That is terrible, and breaks my heart for you I thought I had it bad while living in the
same town as all of my abusers.



LOL!!! And here I am, still allowing what's left of my family to pull my strings LONG DISTANCE!!! They don't even care enough to be closeby, and it's been that way since I was 20!!!




Moonbeam:

You know, until recently, I just continued to do just like you described: I constantly jumped through hoops going for the pork chop, always knowing it would be pulled away at the last second, or after I got a couple of juicy bites......or, that they had put poison in it!






Mama, you said:

Well this may seem petty and trivial but it just is one of the things that makes me look ungrateful and sensitive that she loves to
bring out in me. I must add this, she is fairly well to do and the money thing is held over my H and his sister to give her supreme power.



Mama, it does not seem petty, and I DO understand. This is the same kind of thing both my sister and my father have done regularly most of my life, to attempt to manipulate me into feeling guilty for "being ungrateful" or "petty".



------------------


I just had an interesting epiphany, that I know I have been subconsciously aware of for quite a while. In fact, I have probably posted these basic sentiments in the past almost 4 years......but at this moment, it almost seems as if I am just now "realizing" something about "standing up to bullies".

My mom had 2 brothers.

One of them tormented me most of my life, constantly needling, embarrassing, putting me down.

Not that there were NO redeeming times in our history together, but especially after I became an adult, it seemed as if he relished harassing me.

The other thing was, that he would get my sister in on it, and they would gang up on me when we were all together.

For reasons I am not sure about, FINALLY, probably about 5 years before my Mom died (she died in 2000), I began to rebel, and stand up to him, and tell him he was being a jerk, instead of just clamming and being hurt.

In addition, it was always my mom and me (and sister, to some degree) who did all the work to initiate and maintain contact with these uncles. They were RARELY the ones to make the efforts to get together.

Finally, I began to refuse to go with my mom to visit them (both uncles lived only 100 miles away all my life).

My mom and I had lots of conflict about my refusal to go with her, but she finally understood, if slightly begrudgingly.

Nearly 6 months after she died, this obnoxious uncle called me, and asked me if I would like to go with him on a week-end trip to a place in the mountains to see the fall color (McKittrick Canyon).

I was still reeling over my Mom's death, and I decided to give him the benefit of doubt, because this was SO unlike him to actually initiate contact with me.

During the trip, with it being just he and I together, he treated me a completely different way. He treated me with respect. No digs, no sarcasm. I could tell that he was trying really hard, and it was obvious that it was a conscious effort for him to treat me differently. We actually had a really GREAT time, laughed hysterically, enjoyed the scenery and good food and music. It was like being with someone I did NOT even know. He was a different person.

On our hike into the canyon, I was raving about loving that part of the state, and the Big Bend area (where we drove at the end of that day), and I told him that I used to dream about retiring in those parts.

He said something to me that, at the time, just about knocked me down, but that I also just didn't really believe. He said, "when I'm gone, you'll be able to buy a house anywhere you damn well please".

Over the next several years, we only saw each other at the holidays, when my sister came out here. When we were all 3 together, or in front of additional people, he would slip back into some of his old hateful behavior, and sister would join in.

I finally said, during 2003, 2004 and 2005 holidays, that I was not going to spend time with them. My sister went on holiday trips with him during those two years.

Now, there were other issues, as well; I was VERY ill. I had been in the hospital, and there were other things going on, plus, I had (at that time) SEVEN pets that required a pet sitter or kennel, which I could not afford.

But mostly, I just decided that with what limited physical and emotional energy I had, I was not going to spend it with someone who treated me like a child.

So, during those years, I only saw him when he and sister came back from their road trips to Big Bend, and we would all have lunch here in my town, before she went back to Houston, and he went back to his little town.

But it was obvious that something had changed. He had, by and large, stopped being hateful to me in the little time we did spend together, and if he tried it, I let him know he was a jerk, and to stop it.

The most interesting thing is.....that it was THAT uncle who left me money to buy my current house. He died in June 2006.

I believe he came to respect me enough to not only make honest efforts to treat me differently in his last years (at least, somewhat), but to include me in his will, even though I had cut off most contact with him.

If it had not been for him, I would probably have died in the mobile home....

.....especially when you consider that the night before the movers came to move furniture to the new house, the hot water heater fell through the floor that was rotted from the years of roof leaking, and it ripped out the gas lines. It is an absolute miracle that I did not blow us up by stepping out onto the back porch (right next to the water heater closet) to light a cigarette (I was still smoking then).

I will never know for sure, but somehow, I believe that, had I not changed, and stopped giving in to his abuse, stopped being present for it, began limiting my contact, and stood up to him....I really believe he would not have included me in his will.

















I don't want anyone to misunderstand: I am, pretty much, what is referred to as "house poor". All it would take would be one serious health scare, one more hospitalization, and I would have to sell this house. We all know what this would be like, given the market.

In addition, I am realizing that I may only have a few years before I will have to try to sell it, anyway, because I am getting less and less able physically, to take care of it, both inside, and the yard.


So, what was one of the biggest blessings I have ever had in my life, given to me by an uncle who I thought hated my guts, could easily end up being a curse, if I don't make the right decisions.

I am not even sure what those decisions ARE yet. But it has become painfully clear that the rest of my family cannot be trusted to act in my best interests when the time comes.

I also know that my uncle realized that, as well, after he saw how my sister and son completely copped out and ran like rats when my mom was dying.


So, I have some extremely difficult and frightening decisions to make.

STILL, I am grateful to be alive, and out of that death trap of a mobile home, and to have SOME breathing room to make these difficult decisions.



Thanks for sharing your understanding, you guys, and thanks so much for letting me vent, and for actually listening, and HEARING ME, which is more than my "real" family does for me now.


"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Roxie
Intermediate Member
Username: roxanne

Post Number: 110
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2010 - 7:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Mama:

What a strange "gift". Wonder if it has some underlying meaning, and if so, what?

I've attempted to "hide" from my mil, too.



SW:

Vent all you want. I may have no advice for you that you haven't already figured out, but I can certainly sympathize with your situation.
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4471
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 1:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Thank you for the support, Roxie.






In a strange string of right-on-target daily horoscopes, here is today's:



Cancer Horoscopes
(June 21 - Jul 22)

Tuesday, Apr 6th, 2010 -- You don't want to make a decision today, and yet you know what your choice would be if you were forced to let others know. It's your prerogative how much to reveal and when to reveal it. Don't let anyone coerce you into talking before you are fully ready, because you could end up developing resentment toward anyone who tries to control you.




No kidding?!?!

***sigh***
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Buddie
Senior Member
Username: buddie

Post Number: 2825
Registered: 3-2008
Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 3:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Perspection :-)

Watch for Leonard I think before you know it can be gone .. like my mom
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4477
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Friday, April 09, 2010 - 12:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Buddie, I do love Leonard, although I have to admit that, except for being sort of aware of him as a songwriter, I was pretty much unaware of him, until YOU brought him to my attention.


However, even as much as I usually enjoy really obscure lyrics, (Think of Yes, or Joni Mitchell), I have a hard time, sometimes, relating personally to Leonard's lyrics, except in some way I cannot really grasp??

I am a little unsure why you posted this song here.

Maybe, with some more thought, and listening to it a couple more times, I will understand better.

Love you!
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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John_Doe420
Senior Member
Username: john_doe420

Post Number: 552
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Friday, April 09, 2010 - 1:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

my new (old) favorite song....i really love it, as it seems to resonate deep within me..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8f2mW1GFSI&feature=youtube_gdata
Sonny: Do you think we were all created for a purpose? Id like to
think so. [looks at his hand] Denser alloy. My father gave it to
me. I think he wanted me to kill you.
-I Robot -2004
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John_Doe420
Senior Member
Username: john_doe420

Post Number: 553
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Friday, April 09, 2010 - 1:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

my new (old) favorite song....i really love it, as it seems to resonate deep within me..
Sonny: Do you think we were all created for a purpose? Id like to
think so. [looks at his hand] Denser alloy. My father gave it to
me. I think he wanted me to kill you.
-I Robot -2004
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4478
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Friday, April 09, 2010 - 2:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

That is a really good song, and I can't believe I don't remember it.

I even saw "Doc Hollywood", but I still don't remember this song.

It came out during a period when I was almost completely tuned OUT from music. Given that music has been a huge part of my being, from as early as age 5, it is very difficult to explain why I went through a period of nearly 10 years when I hardly EVER listened to music.

At any rate.....


very appropriate song, JD. I can identify with the lyrics a LOT!

(((((JD420)))))
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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John_Doe420
Senior Member
Username: john_doe420

Post Number: 554
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Friday, April 09, 2010 - 5:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

thought you'd like it
Sonny: Do you think we were all created for a purpose? Id like to
think so. [looks at his hand] Denser alloy. My father gave it to
me. I think he wanted me to kill you.
-I Robot -2004
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moonbeam
Advanced Member
Username: mia

Post Number: 443
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 11:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

My brother came in this past weekend and most the fam was together for a cookout. I went, and much to my delight, I survived it without any new scars. Infact, I was able to hold my own. I don't think that has ever happened before, so I wanted to say thanks to you peeps, as you gave me the courage to do this. A song for you.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBG4vxi9mtk
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4480
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 11:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I'm glad it worked out that way for you, mia!
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Buddie
Senior Member
Username: buddie

Post Number: 2842
Registered: 3-2008
Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2010 - 10:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I posted it because I feel
our memories can be gone..
as his are happening and as
my moms Did..Its so sad to
see him with a delicate mind
in that video..

Anyway I broke my wrist a week
ago and my energy wavers..tonight
I am tired but can't sleep..
gonna try reading or taking a
pain pill.. G'Night
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moonbeam
Advanced Member
Username: mia

Post Number: 446
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Thursday, April 15, 2010 - 9:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Buddie, hope you heal quickly!

SW, baby steps...............
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsUaQUW-Az0
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Buddie
Senior Member
Username: buddie

Post Number: 2844
Registered: 3-2008
Posted on Thursday, April 15, 2010 - 8:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

thank you moon I better
as I want this cast Off next Friday
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4481
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2010 - 10:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Moonbeam, I forgot to say thanks for the Neik song. He is in my top 10, or at least top 20.

I have never actually tried to compile my "top 20" list, because I think I might go nuts trying to choose!!!! There is just SO MUCH miraculous music out there!


As for the "baby steps" thing from "What About Bob", well, I have never seen the movie, but that little segment you posted made me go "OUCH!!"





-------


buddie, I am so sorry about your wrist, and I hope you are well on the way to mending!



------------------



Who Cares?


Basically, I'm complicated
I have a hard time taking the easy way
I wouldn't call it schizophrenia
But I'll be at least 2 people today

If that's okay

And I can go on and on and on... but who cares?

It's deep how you can be so shallow
And I'm afraid cause I have no fear
And I didn't believe in magic
Until I watched you disappear

I wish you were here

And I can go on and on and on... but who cares?

You see, everybody is somebody
But nobody wants to be themselves
And If I ever wanted to understand me
I'll have to talk to someone else

Cause every little bit helps

And I can go on and on and on... but who cares?

Feels like the surreal life
But it's still nice
Wish I could live twice
But I still might
If these wounds heal right
I see a little light
Even though it's still night

Feels like... surreal like
But its still nice
Wish I could live twice
but I still might
if these bones heal right
I see a little light
Even though it's still night

And I can go on and on and on... but who cares?

And I can go on and on and on... but who cares?

"In the end, only kindness matters."
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moonbeam
Advanced Member
Username: mia

Post Number: 449
Registered: 9-2009
Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2010 - 10:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

SW, babysteps video is just a way to make fun of myself. You would love the movie "What About Bob", it is great.

I like the lyrics to "Who Cares". Especially the line "but I will be at least two people today" because that is so true. I feel like I have to be two people. The one on here is the real me and the one I live around others is what they want or expect me to be. A double life! "But, who cares?"
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Mama Shine
Senior Member
Username: mama_shine

Post Number: 11498
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2010 - 9:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

SW,

I care and that song says
a lot to me. Kinda like what moonbeam said
and then some.

Take care, SW and say it with music.
I'd be lost without it.
I must create a system, or be enslaved by another man's. ~William Blake

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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4482
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2010 - 7:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I'm grateful to know you ladies are feelin' me!






Yes, sometimes the only way I CAN say it, is with music.......



My God, how many times in my life, has music spoken for me, and said with so much eloquence, what I was feeling, and wanted to express?







Crazy



I remember when, I remember,
I remember when I lost my mind
There was something so pleasant about that place
Even your emotions have an echo
In so much space

And when you're out there
Without care,
Yeah, I was out of touch
But it wasn't because I didn't know enough
I just knew too much

Does that make me crazy?
Does that make me crazy?
Does that make me crazy?
Possibly

And I hope that you are having the time of your life
But think twice
That's my only advice

Come on now, who do you, who do you, who do you, Who do you think you are?
Ha ha ha bless your soul!

You really think you're in control

Well, I think you're crazy
I think you're crazy
I think you're crazy
Just like me

My heroes had the heart
to lose their lives out on a limb
And all I remember is thinking
I want to be like them
Ever since I was little
Ever since I was little it looked like fun
And it's no coincidence I've come
And I can die when I'm done

But maybe I'm crazy
Maybe you're crazy
Maybe we're crazy
Probably







-----------




Crazy


Tell me what's wrong with society
When everywhere I look, I see
Young girls dying to be on TV
They won't stop till they've reached their dreams

Diet pills, surgery
Photoshopped pictures in magazines
Telling them how they should be
It doesn't make sense to me

Is everybody going crazy?
Is anybody gonna save me?
Can anybody tell me what's going on?
Tell me what's going on?
If you open your eyes
You'll see that something is wrong

I guess things are not how they used to be
There's no more normal families
Parents act like enemies
Making kids feel like it's World War III

No one cares, no one's there
I guess we're all just too damn busy
And money's our first priority
It doesn't make sense to me

Is everybody going crazy?
Is anybody gonna save me?
Can anybody tell me what's going on?
Tell me what's going on?
If you open your eyes
You'll see that something is wrong

Is everybody going crazy?
Is everybody going crazy?

Tell me what's wrong with society
When everywhere I look I see
Rich guys driving big SUVs
While kids are starving in the streets

No one cares
No one likes to share
I guess life's unfair

Is everybody going crazy?
Is anybody gonna save me?
Can anybody tell me what's going on?
Tell me what's going on?
If you open your eyes
You'll see that something, something is wrong

Is everybody going crazy?
Can anybody tell me what's going on?
Tell me what's going on?
If you open your eyes
You'll see that something is wrong





---------------
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Buddie
Senior Member
Username: buddie

Post Number: 2852
Registered: 3-2008
Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2010 - 6:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I Don't want wanna miss a thing
One of the Sweetest Daddy Lullubys

I don't want to miss a thing

I could stay awake just to hear you breathing
Watch you smile while you are sleeping
While you're far away and dreaming
I could spend my life in this sweet surrender
I could stay lost in this moment forever
Well, every moment spent with you
Is a moment I treasure

(Chorus)
I don't wanna close my eyes
I don't wanna fall asleep
'Cause I'd miss you, baby
And I don't wanna miss a thing
'Cause even when I dream of you
The sweetest dream would never do
I'd still miss you, baby
And I don't wanna miss a thing

Lying close to you
Feeling your heart beating
And I'm wondering what you're dreaming
Wondering if it's me you're seeing
Then I kiss your eyes and thank God we're together
And I just wanna stay with you
In this moment forever, forever and ever

(chorus)
I don't wanna close my eyes
I don't wanna fall asleep
'Cause I'd miss you, baby
And I don't wanna miss a thing
'Cause even when I dream of you
The sweetest dream would never do
I'd still miss you, baby
And I don't wanna miss a thing
I don't wanna miss one smile
I don't wanna miss one kiss

Well, I just wanna be with you
Right here with you, just like this
I just wanna hold you close
Feel your heart so close to mine
And just stay here in this moment
For all the rest of time

(Chorus)
Don't wanna close my eyes
Don't wanna fall asleep
'Cause I'd miss you, baby
And I don't wanna miss a thing
'Cause even when I dream of you
The sweetest dream would never do
'Cause I'd still miss you, baby
And I don't wanna miss a thing

I don't wanna close my eyes
I don't wanna fall asleep
'Cause I'd miss you, baby
And I don't wanna miss a thing
'Cause even when I dream of you
The sweetest dream would never do
I'd still miss you, baby
And I don't wanna miss a thing
Don't wanna close my eyes
Don't wanna fall asleep, yeah
I don't wanna miss a thing
I don't wanna miss a thing
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4483
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, April 19, 2010 - 11:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I have not spoken to my sister since March 28th.

She called and left a message on my machine on 4/3, but I emailed her and told her I did not feel like talking.

Then, last night, she emailed me, and simply said;

"And now, where do we go from here?"


She followed it up with another email on a "chit-chatty" topic, asking me if I had heard of a certain young singer. Nothing important, but just her attempt to re-open contact with me, by pretending nothing happened.


My instinct is to just tell her that I will respond to her emails, but that I want to limit our contact to just email for now, and that I am still not ready to talk. (We are getting closer and closer to the anniversary of Mom's death, on the 28th.....next Wed..)







Forgive?
Sounds good
Forget?
Iím not sure I could
They say time heals everything
But Iím still waiting

Iím through with doubt
Thereís nothing left for me to figure out
Iíve paid a price
And Iíll keep paying

Iím not ready to make nice
Iím not ready to back down
Iím still mad as hell
And I donít have time
To go round and round and round

Itís too late to make it right
I probably wouldnít if I could
ėCause Iím mad as hell
And canít bring myself
To do what it is you think I should

I know you said
"Canít you just get over it?"
It turned my whole world around
And I kind of like it

I made my bed
And I sleep like a baby
With no regrets
And I donít mind sayiní
Itís a sad sad story
When a mother will teach
Her daughter that she ought
To hate a perfect stranger

And how in the world
Can the words that I said
Send somebody
So over the edge
That theyíd write me a letter
Sayiní that I better
Shut up and sing
Or my life will be over

Iím not ready to make nice
Iím not ready to back down
Iím still mad as hell
And I donít have time
To go round and round and round
Itís too late to make it right
I probably wouldnít if I could
ėCause Iím mad as hell
Canít bring myself
To do what it is you think I should

Forgive, sounds good
Forget, Iím not sure I could
They say time heals everything
But Iím still waiting





As many times as I have seen that video, it hit me in a little deeper place today. Especially the images towards the end, that are set in a "hospital" or "medical" type of setting.....


Even though Natalie had a very specific context for her lyrics, I am also being told to "shut up and sing" by my sister/family. I have been all my life, told (both overtly and by implication) to "accept my place" and like it.

So, the song really does reflect VERY closely, how I have come to feel about not just my sister, but my father and my son, as well.

And, it makes me incredibly sad that (one) it has taken me till this ripe old age to reach the point of "enough!", and (two) that this actually IS the reality of my family.



So, if I say "enough" to my sister, then that's it?

Then what?



A winter's day
In a deep and dark December
I am alone
Gazing from my window
To the streets below
On a freshly fallen silent shroud of snow

I am a rock
I am an island

I've built walls
A fortress deep and mighty
That none may penetrate
I have no need of friendship
Friendship causes pain
It's laughter and it's loving I disdain

I am a rock
I am an island

Don't talk of love
But I've heard the words before
It's sleeping in my memory
I won't disturb the slumber of feelings that have died
If I never loved I never would have cried
I am a rock
I am an island

I have my books
And my poetry to protect me
I am shielded in my armor
Hiding in my room, safe within my womb
I touch no one and no one touches me
I am a rock
I am an island

And a rock feels no pain
And an island never cries





"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Roxie
Intermediate Member
Username: roxanne

Post Number: 111
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2010 - 10:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

SW:

"Where do we go from here?"

Careful, SW. She's baiting you.

Don't you love that little pronoun "we"?

I've dealt with that pronoun way too much.

Most of the time, with the evil people in my life, that pronoun "we", more often than not, means "you". I'm not sure why they prefer to use "we." Unless they think "we" means "I'm going to tell you what to do/think/feel and once you have done that, to my standard, then I am part of the "we".

Does that make sense?

My response to her "we" message, if I were to respond, would be something along the lines of, "I know where 'I'm' going from here, however, 'I' cannot presume to speak for 'you'". Then, if I were asked, "Where are "you" going from here?" (cause you know that's coming) I'd respond with some sort of philisophical statement, like, "Nirvana". Of course, the evil people in my life would assume that "Nirvana" is some little-known town in Montana, or East Egypt, or even more ridiculously, would proceed to tell me the demographics of same and how I should re-think my trip, or invite themselves to come along!

Of course, she's not my sister and I don't have to deal with the fall-out from such a response.

It really seems to speak volumes about her presumption that "you" are part of "her world". Why do these people always sound like jilted lovers?

Sounds like she's missing her supply, from wherever/whomever it comes.

Be careful chit-chatting with her. Ask yourself, is what she saying somehow related to my relationship with her? If I answer this question, about another person/movie/circumstance will this be used against me?

Until recently, I never understood people like this. The way they "insist" on inserting themselves in my life. No amount of discouraging, to down right rudeness, will make them go away. They want what they want, when they want it, and they usually want me to provide that "want".

As a normal person (if one would consider me normal), I know when to back off. I have a dear friend, that suffers from occasional bouts of depression. We email each other at least once a week. If I send her an email, and she doesn't respond right away, I know that she's in one of her blue moods and doesn't want to be bothered. Either that, or she's busy with, oh I don't know, something like a "life" that doesn't include me. So, I wait. I don't badger her. Eventually, when her mood lifts, or she has a few minutes to spare, she will respond. I don't take it personally. I don't question her absence. If she wants me to know, she will tell me.

Anyway, I'm sure you have figured all this out as it applies to your sister. Just adding my response in support of you. Hope I have broken the "Southern Ladies' Rule of Etiquette" of keeping one's opinion to oneself.

p.s. Love those lyrics (never heard the songs, before).
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4484
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2010 - 11:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Just a quick post to say thank you, Roxie, for your response.

I don't have the energy to respond now, but I will do so in the morning.

I really like your "attitude" and the way you express things!


Roxie, may I be so bold as to ask, how old are you????



AND, regarding the lyrics of the two songs above, did you listen to the songs?


Till tomorrow.....
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Roxie
Intermediate Member
Username: roxanne

Post Number: 112
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2010 - 7:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

SW:

Haven't had a chance to listen to the songs. My husband and I share a computer, so it's a sort of "tag team" between the two of use using it.

I'm a whopping post-menopausal 53 and loving it!
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4485
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 1:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

OK, I am having a hard time understanding how you could not be familiar with the Simon & Garfunkel song, given that you are 53 years old??????



Anyway....




you said:

"Be careful chit-chatting with her. Ask yourself, is what she saying somehow related to my relationship with her? If I answer this question, about another person/movie/circumstance will this be used against me?



Can you explain this in a little more detail, please?



I don't know how to respond to my sister's emails, so I haven't responded at all.......



I am extremely depressed.

I have not been this depressed since 2000, when my mom died.

Is there some special significance to the 10 year anniversary of a mother's death?


I don't know......I just know I can hardly breathe.






An Empty Chair

There is an empty chair
where my mother use to sit,
but there will never be
an empty place within my heart
for there her memory is seated.

Copyright © Rose DesRochers 2005-2009

"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Roxie
Intermediate Member
Username: roxanne

Post Number: 113
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 7:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

That is odd that I didn't recognize that Simon and Garfunkle song until you mentioned their name. Just never was into them that much, I suppose.

I'm so sorry your are depressed.

I don't know about the 10 anniversary that is distressing you so. Sounds like you miss her terribly and each year that passes just makes it worse for you. It also sounds like you are not feeling validated, by those who are supposed to love and care for you, about your grief.

So, don't answer the emails, if they are adding to your depression.

As far as chit-chatting with your sister, and from what you've said about her, I would just be careful or, more specifically, aware, of the content of the conversation.

People like her, know how to use the most innocent sounding thing to trigger us. It's a way to get us to engage with them, to throw us off, to get us to lower our guard, and once that is done, they go in for the kill.

It's hard to imagine how a conversation about something so trivial as, say, a recipe for soup, can be quickly twisted into how we are supposed to behave in order to appease these people.

I'm not a grief counselor, but maybe you could set a framed photo of your mother on a table, light a candle for her, place her favorite flowers near her photo and talk to her. Let her know how you feel and how much you miss her. Who's gonna hear you, other than her? Cry, rant and rave. Get it all out.

This is just a suggestion. I won't pretend to know what you are going through.

Sending love, hugs and good thoughts your way.
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Victoria
Advanced Member
Username: victoria

Post Number: 339
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 5:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Hi SW, I have a suggestion for you when it comes to dealing with dicey family-control issues. I've been following along, as the dialog strikes a note with me too.

Anyway, what I do when I don't want to answer a question... knowing no good can come of it... I respond with a question back. Just don't answer any questions, make THEM talk!

And don't even attempt to "fill" the dead-silence. Just let the silence speak for you, as in, "I can play that game too!" Then when no one speaks for a while, just say, "Well, I guess that wraps it up!" and end the conversation... or email. You know your own buttons, so just be prepared with a ready question in advance. It works for me every time.

One good "ready question" is... "Why do you want to know?" And after they make something up, like, "Because I CARE!" just ask another question, ie., "Why?" Become the 2-year old and just keep asking, "Why" or "Yeah, but why?" And just don't answer their questions. It takes courage to keep it up, but when you win that game, it feels pretty good. At least is does for me.

And don't be afraid to repeat the same scenario often, as the tactic continues to work every time. If they get mad at you, ask them why they are so angry? and then repeat the never-ending "Why" dialog. Invoke your inner-child! ;-)

I'm wishing blessings for you and sprinkling some faerie-dust for good luck!
Eschew Obfuscation
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Mama Shine
Senior Member
Username: mama_shine

Post Number: 11516
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 7:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Victoria said:

One good "ready question" is... "Why do you want to know?" And after they make something up, like, "Because I CARE!" just ask another question, ie., "Why?" Become the 2-year old and just keep asking, "Why" or "Yeah, but why?" And just don't answer their questions. It takes courage to keep it up, but when you win that game, it feels pretty good. At least is does for me.


I was going to suggest the same thing, SW. I do that and I can be as ornery as a 2 year old when I feel someone's baiting me. Of course they always point it out to me and I smile and hug my inner Child.

Now, my Mama passed Jan. 4, 2000 and I don't feel
any differently than any other year but I don't experience time in the usual way. Planting a plant helps me honor my relatives that have passed.

SW, know that I am sending kindly thoughts your way.
I must create a system, or be enslaved by another man's. ~William Blake

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Sharon2
Senior Member
Username: sharon2468

Post Number: 3172
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 8:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Mama Shine wrote, "Planting a plant helps me honor my relatives that have passed."

What a perfect memorial!
"Thought is a Creative Force!"
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4486
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 9:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Roxie said:

"I'm not a grief counselor, but maybe you could set a framed photo of your mother on a table, light a candle for her, place her favorite flowers near her photo and talk to her. Let her know how you feel and how much you miss her. Who's gonna hear you, other than her? Cry, rant and rave. Get it all out."


I think that is a wonderful suggestion! I plan to do just that very thing on the 28th.


------------




Victoria, thank you for your response, as well. Here are my thoughts regarding your suggestions.


There is not so much an issue with being asked questions that I don't want to answer.

She does not "pry" into my life, because she just isn't really interested (or, sometimes, I think she somehow already knows....but that's another subject...).

The issue is that she uses various kinds of "techniques" and "approaches" in order to trigger me in various ways.


You are spot-on about the "filling in the silences" thing. That is another one of her passive-agressive tactics. She calls out of some sense of obligation or necessity (there are several possibilities there), but usually the conversation is mostly HER talking about her life.

However, on the calls when she doesn't have much to talk about from her own life, she still feels she has to call, but then she will not say much. So, I either "fill the silences", or I say to her that there is not much point in talking on the phone if there is no actual conversation.

Either way, she pretty much gets what she wants.

The whole reason I am avoiding talking to her on the phone, is because there is a lot of very deeply imbedded "programming" that causes me to "report", and to "respond" to various triggers that she can deliver vocally.

It is very much like hypnosis....and, in fact, most probably involves one or more forms of hypnosis, and post-hypnotic suggestion.

It is SAFER for me to NOT talk to her on the phone.



-------


For any who don't remember how this latest impasse began, it was when she was telling me about what her friend was going through, with a diagnosis of lung cancer. I posted about it in the archive of this thread, my posts #4410 and #4412.


---------



Mama Shine, I am pretty sure that the main reason this anniversary of mom's death is so much harder, is a direct result of my sister triggering me with the situation (that I still cannot confirm) with the "friend".

----------


As for the "planting a plant" thing.....YEP! I have done that very thing EVERY YEAR, on the day, for the last 10 years.

I also plant something on the anniversary of my uncle's death (June), since he is the one who got me interested in gardening in the first place!!! This year will be the 4th year.


-----------



Roxie, I know that you did read those posts about the "friend" with lung cancer, and the second-hand information I was getting about her from my sister. I know that you were aware that it was that situation that triggered this impasse between my sister and myself.

I also know that you are aware of the "bigger picture" ramifications about the whole incident, and the various purposes it served, or could potentially serve, for my sister. You posted very specifically about your understanding about this.

I still feel a LOT of guilt over not contacting the "friend" myself. But given the way this has gone, my sister has probably told the "friend" lies, so that my call would not be welcomed. It's called BEING SET UP, and also being put in a NO WIN situation.

If I risk calling the friend to see about her, and to express my empathy and concern for her, I risk (1) being rebuffed due to whatever sister may have (falsely) told her; or (2) risk upsetting her by telling her the true facts.

If she truly is in the situation my sister has described to me, then she certainly doesn't need any further stress.

So, do I let her go on believing that I don't care, or whatever LIES my sister told her?

I thought about writing her (the friend) a letter, and sending it certified mail; but my sister told me that the friend's siblings now have "durable power of attorney" of the friend's affairs, not JUST medical power of attorney. So, they have the power to sign for any certified mail addressed to her. I would have no way of knowing IF she got my letter.


I STILL don't know what to do about that situation.



At any rate.....

As far as my sister goes.....I got another email from her today, and she said:

"When are you going to feel like talking? I'm trying to respect your request, but I miss you."



My first reaction to that was the urge to email her back, and say, "What is it, exactly, that you miss?"

But I know that would be a pointless question. She can say, "I miss hearing your voice".


So, I am still at the point of just telling her that I will communicate with her by email, but that, at least for the time being, I simply do not want to talk on the phone, and that I cannot tell her when I will feel ready to talk by phone.


*****SIGH*****


No matter what I do, I still feel caught in a "catch 22".

Do I NEVER talk to her on the phone again?

This is ridiculous, and so frustrating I can't even tell you.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Roxie
Intermediate Member
Username: roxanne

Post Number: 114
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Sunday, April 25, 2010 - 11:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

SW:

I'm glad I could offer some help.

Re:

"When are you going to feel like talking? I'm trying to respect your request, but I miss you."

Good Lord! Your sister is like an open book!

Let's translate it.

"When are you going to feel like talking? Translation: I want you to talk to ME, NOW. I don't care when you feel like talking. Your feelings are NOT part of my world. Your time table doesn't concern me. I get to decide how long it takes for you to get over it and come back to ME. I'm not interested in your response to this question, I'm just going to continue to poke, prod and needle you until you respond, so I can argue with you and get you to engage with me so I can trigger you and hurt you further.

"I'm trying to respect your request, but I miss you." Translation: I don't understand what "respect" is as it refers to someone else. I have no clue how to "respect" anyone, including myself, but for the sake of getting you to respond to ME, I'll tell you that I am trying. All I am actually "trying" to do is get you to respond.

"But", to ME means, I have just negated what I just said about respecting your request. It means, I am NOT going to respect your request.

"I miss you," Yes, I miss what you can DO for ME. How powerful you make ME feel when I abuse YOU.

If you don't respond to this email, and believe me, I wouldn't if it were me, be prepared for something along the lines of, "I just don't know what to do. You are being unreasonable, all I want to do is be your SISTER. I just want US to get along. Is that too much to ask?"

In other words, she's going to throw the whole situation on you and make you feel guilty. Sweetie, DON'T FALL FOR IT!

I have a brother that lives in Texas. He works hard at a full time job and has gone back to school, part time. He has three teenagers and a two year old. His wife has a full time job. They have hobbies and are busy with their children. We talk to each other maybe once a month. I have never felt that he has to be available to me 24/7. I know that I am not the center of his universe. I respect his need to live his life.

But you know what? And this may seem like a odd thing to say, but I don't miss him. At least, not in the way your sister is implying. I don't sit around all day, day in and day out, pining over him. I don't feel the need to hear from him or see him every day. He's an adult, I'm an adult. We have our own lives to live. I feel the same way about my other brother and sister. I love them and I love when I get to visit them, but I don't really miss them. And maybe it's because we don't "feed off of each other" the way your sister seems to need to feed off of you.

As to your friend, I can see where you are in a catch 22. If you send a card or letter, regular mail, you won't know if she actually received it (or it was intercepted), same thing with the certified letter. I can't remember, at this moment, if you said you were able to call her.

If you do initiate some sort of communication, I would advise you to bolster, or brave yourself for rejection, (something you clearly do not need). Based on what you've said, it is likely that your sister has poisoned her against you. I've had that happen to me, as well, but, eventually, the person that was poisoned against me, sees the poisoner for what they are. I realize that your friend may never have that opportunity, and it's so sad, especially since you are truly concerned about her. And you know, this may be exactly what your sister wants. She may be, and more likely IS setting you up because she knows that you will be devastated should your friend never know how much you cared about her. Puts you right back into depression, makes you vulnerable and (at least in your sister's mind) will cause you to reach out (to her) for support.

I suppose, if it were me, and I really wanted my friend to know how I felt, I would send a letter and tell her how much I care and that I would love to hear from her. But, I wouldn't mention my sister, at all. Because, my concern wouldn't have anything to do with my sister. Then I would mail it, and and have absolutely no expectation that I would hear from her. I made the effort, and that's all I can do.

If you did that and your sister (not your friend) responded to your letter, well, you'll know, with absolute certainty that your sister is running the show. And she is not about to allow you or your friend have any sort of relationship that does not put your sister in control.

If your friend does respond and brings up some lie that your sister told her, I'd just say, "I assure that is absolutely not true and I'm sorry my sister upset you like that. Sometimes I worry about her, but let's not talk about her, let's talk about you and how you are feeling."

But, here again, be prepared, because you don't actually know what has been told to your friend and should she reject you, realize she is basing her rejection on what your sister has said.

Do you NEVER talk to her on the phone, again? Well, I wouldn't, or if I did I would have a whole script prepared to keep the conversation going where I wanted and a reason "prepared" to end the call should it turn around. And like another poster suggested, I'd use a lot of "why, why, why", and change the subject, maybe go into a point by point detail about something you know she has no interest in. Like maybe the mating habits of the tse-tse fly.

Maybe you could have some boring article or book handy and start reading it to her, and NOT SHUT UP! You could have a little fun with something like that. Put the ball back in your court.

Stay strong.
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Victoria
Advanced Member
Username: victoria

Post Number: 346
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Sunday, April 25, 2010 - 3:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Roxie... YOU ROCK!!!!

Mind if I quote you to my sister? Thanks, Victoria
Eschew Obfuscation
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Roxie
Intermediate Member
Username: roxanne

Post Number: 118
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Sunday, April 25, 2010 - 5:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Victoria,

Thanks. No, I don't mind.
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4488
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 25, 2010 - 9:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

After I posted on Friday, I composed a response to sister's latest email. I have NOT sent it yet. Tell me what you think, please.


-----------------

Sister,

You asked me:

"When are you going to feel like talking?"

I do not have an answer for you for that question.

All I can tell you is that, for the time being, I do not want to talk on the phone, and that you will be the second person to know if I reach a point where I do feel like talking.


If you are willing to communicate by email for now, then I will be willing to try more of that.


You said:

"I'm trying to respect your request"

It was not a "request". It was a decision I made, based on what is BEST for me.

Plus, if you were truly "trying to respect" my wishes, you would not be putting pressure on me to talk when I am not ready.

Regardless of whether you "respect" my decision, I am not prepared to change it, at least, for now.


You also said:

"I miss you."

What is it, exactly, that you miss?


-------------------

Back on March 28th, the day after this impasse began, I told sister in email that the ONLY way I would EVER AGAIN try to discuss any volatile issues between us, would be in the presence of a family therapist.

Over the years, I have asked several members of my family to join me in family therapy. None of them would ever agree to do this, and there is no way any of them would ever change their minds. It would be a lot like asking them to take polygraph tests!!! They will never agree to submit to any scenario where they will be "called out" on their dishonesty and manipulative behavior.


Having said all that, Roxie and Victoria, regarding your suggestions of "possible" scenarios for any future phone discussion with her, here is how I feel about this.

(I realize that I am more or less answering my own question about "do I just NEVER talk to her on the phone again?"......)


Regarding your suggestion of having a script or such prepared, in order to steer the conversation.....I am coming up HARD against the realization that I have almost completely lost interest in "superficial" and "shallow" TELEPHONE conversations, about the weather, or what movies we have seen, stuff like that; or, for that matter, listening to her talk about her problems. I can talk about those things in email.

Besides, I don't trust that I can conduct a superficial phone conversation, without ending up either REPORTING to her (as in, to a "handler"), or ending up being emotionally manipulated into more trauma.



It is finally becoming crystal clear that my father and sister only care about me to the extent that they have to, in order to "keep tabs" as my handlers and primary "perps" (dating way back to childhood); and that my son does not care about me UNLESS I will provide him with money.


I think that it is this reality, which is now finally undeniable, that has made this 10th anniversary of my Mom's death, so much more difficult.

I am no longer able to hold on to the idea of "If I say NO to them, I will be alone and have nobody".

The truth is, that except for the most superficial and "occasional" exceptions, I have been alone since the day my mom died.

And, because my Mom drank from the time I was 7, until I was 25, I was pretty much alone all my life. It was only during the years after she got sober that she really tried to be, and WAS, THERE FOR ME.

My sister was "never there" when we were kids. Because of the family drama, she was checked out most of the time, and she resented me from the time I was born. She even tried to smother me with a pillow when I was a baby, and tried to (and did) physically hurt me in other ways, as well, when I was little. She also hurt me psychologically from an early age.

So, being a "loner" is not so much something I "chose", as it is simply all I ever really knew. But conditioning and other issues and emotions, have kept me attached, even though it has been from a distance.





Will my family try to find a way to make me seem "unbalanced" if I actually do finally cut off any substantial contact from now on?

I can still hear my sister telling me, as a kid of 5 or 6, that there was "something wrong" with me, and that if I didn't stop being so "sensitive and emotional" that Daddy was going to send me away "with the doctors".

Perhaps THAT FEAR is what has REALLY kept me from cutting these toxic people off a long time ago.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4489
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 25, 2010 - 9:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Yes, fear.....



How many times have we heard it said about "the battered woman" scenario, that she is in THE MOST danger if she decides to get out???

It is a true statistic that unredeemable abusers will attack if you try to say no to them.

Yes....abusers, mind control, gaslighting, and fear.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4490
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 25, 2010 - 10:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Yeah, fear.

My sister is very vindictive. And, of course, she knows ALL my weaknesses.

And she knows my "achilles heel" in terms of fears. If I stand up to her and continue to refuse to speak to her, it would be just like her to decide, out of anger, to file a report (anonymous or not) with SSA, claiming that I am NOT disabled.

She is WELL aware that just going through the initial claims process nearly killed me. She knows that losing my SS benefits is one of my GREATEST fears.



Guess I had better figure out some pre-emptive measures of my own.

I know quite well that just the knowledge that I am now having to even THINK about these issues, is giving my sister some really satisfying sick pleasure.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Victoria
Advanced Member
Username: victoria

Post Number: 349
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2010 - 2:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

SW ~ My heart aches for the trauma and drama you have been enduring... and, like you, my older sister was equally abusive and hated me all my life too... and tried to kill me many times, like yours. I finally decided to save me, so I had to sever contact with her. And at the same time, the cost was that my niece and nephew would be left to whatever she imposed on them without my intervention. But I wanted to live, to survive, so I kept my distance, as painful as it was.

My sister was bi-polar since childhood... something I didn't know till last year, (she was not diagnosed until her 30s) but I realized that she had a disease just like any other disease, and I still loved her, though at a distance. A year ago last Nov. she died... and now I dream of her and she tells me she is so sorry for everything. I know that she had some "issues" to work out this lifetime, and failed on many fronts, but there were many things I learned from all this.

We all have choices to make regarding the quality of relationships we draw to us. I've chosen the "tough-love" approach in many cases, and simply had to let-go. I won't tolerate any abuse or manipulative behavior any more... and at the first sign of it with family, or even with friends, I confront the situation and/or end contact.

I can't make any assumptions regarding your situation, but, you do get to make choices, so choose healthy ones that protect YOU. Let go of any feelings of guilt, as their choices (especially your sister's) are not your responsibility or under your control. Maybe that's easier said than done, but choose only what is right for you. Take care of your spirit, honor your mind and be kind to yourself emotionally.

I have had to make "family" out of my friendships, as my blood-family is so dysfunctional. I work hard at being a good friend, and like Roxie, I don't like to put demands on their time, and allow them to stay in touch when they can... it's a two way street... 50/50 give and take. Otherwise things get out of balance.

In the past, I always had to be "the giver," but it became apparent that life for me was out of balance, and I was forced to learn about receiving. It's been a struggle, but I'm getting the hang of it, slowly. I don't feel guilt now that I used to feel, so that's progress, yes? And I still give in ways that I'm capable of.

I think you "give" a lot of yourself here on this board, and I learn from you, your postings, and those of so many others too. I'm grateful for you and want you to know how much I appreciate what you contribute! We all learn from each other here, don't we... the good, the bad and the ugly! LOL

But I see it all as a blessing, regardless of the difficulty. It progresses our immortal spirit in ways that we just can't comprehend in this limited dimensional experience, so hold on and have faith in all the aspects that challenge, as in the bigger picture, it's only a brief moment of time.

There have been many times that I thought my life sucked so badly (in spite of the many miracles and blessings I received), and I would tell myself... "I wonder what will happen tomorrow?" So I would hold the idea in my mind that tomorrow, something would come clear, get resolved, shift for the positive... and I would decide to keep an open-door to these possibles.

About the SSI, imagine it in perfect harmony with your needs, and refuse to contemplate anything your sister might do, as that is displacing your incredible power and energy.

I know you know all this, all the things I've written, but sometimes each of us needs to be reminded of our own gifts, so this is meant simply as a reminder to keep reaching for the light.

Blessings! ~ V
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4494
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2010 - 2:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Signs of emotional abuse

(words in brackets are my insertions)



Someone that has been functionally abused from an emotional standpoint has been manipulated for so long that the average person [onlookers] does not see how their [the victim's] behavior has changed to benefit the perpetrator. Instead they [the onlookers] think that the [victim's] behavior may be a bit abnormal, but [the onlookers don't realize that] they [the victim] are dependent upon the approval of the person so much that they cannot make intelligent decisions about the negative impact of this [coerced and manipulated] conduct.



Emotional abuse usually begins with verbal confrontation that results in an emotional reaction by the victim. Once the perpetrator understands the buttons that they must manipulate a pattern of behavior can do wonders for receiving the type of reaction that they are seeking. If a certain threat no longer is effective, the intensity of the threat will dramatically increase until the victim chooses to come back under control for the benefit of the perpetrator.





-------------

Gaslighting




Q: What are the warning signs of gaslighting?

A: A relationship that is working for you and where you're feeling whole is not going to be a relationship that you're uncomfortable in or feel bad about. So, the first question is, do you want to be with this person and does this person make you feel like yourself? Do you feel free and comfortable to express your opinion? Do you feel validated by your partner or boss? Being comfortable is a very important piece of it because if you find yourself hesitating to bring up subjects or state your opinion, it's very likely that you're with someone who can't accept that [you have valid opinions].



One of the biggest points I make with my clients is that you have to be willing to leave the relationship. You have to trust yourself, and you have to be the arbiter of your reality. Check in with friends who know you. Ask the people you trust if things make sense. Journal about it.



There are some really interesting comments following the above article, with which I strongly identify!!! I found it particularly interesting, all the comments about victims of this who either wanted to, or tried, to record conversations. The galslighter is a MASTER at the "I never said that" game!!!

Call me paranoid, but here it is:

I wonder SO often, just how extensive the "behind-the-scenes" manipulation really is, with my family, and others, in my life.

In other words, I have always had the feeling that the "gut feeling" I had always had that I was being "set up" and manipulated, and that my life was being controlled by "controllers", was just the tip of the iceberg.

I now realize that a gaslighter can manipulate people around the victim with lies, inuendo, or threats, if necessary; and the victim will probably NEVER KNOW for certain, or to what extent, that the gaslighter has gone behind his/her back to sabotage his/her life.





And yet, the abuse and invalidation is SO EFFECTIVE, that, despite all that I know NOW, I still find myself thinking, "are you just being paranoid?"..........; still find myself questioning my own intelligence, instincts, intuition, observations.......



The more I read about other people's experiences with this kind of abuse, the more things I remember about what has gone on in my life!


YES, it IS all about MIND CONTROL, no matter how you slice it, or which "angle of severity" you look at it from.



CRIMINEY.




I was "targetted" or "tagged" from an early age, because of my sensitivity, my "abilities", and because of my intensely strong "observational skills" and "memory", to the point of being referred to as having a "photographic memory".

So, it's no wonder that it is all of these traits that have constantly been pathologized by my family, and others, who resented these traits, but also wanted to exploit them.

It is NO WONDER that I have been "attracted" to manipulators and abusers, in friends, husbands, boyfriends, employers....all my life.

The abuse was so effective, and from such an early age, that I often despair of EVER having any kind of normal relationships. It's getting WAY too late in my life to alter a lifetime of damage from the programming and ongoing abuse.....heaped upon abuse.....heaped upon abuse.



NO MATTER. I will NOT take it any more. I distanced myself from each and every abuser in my life, and still, I breathe, and live, and am not dead or homeless or any of the other things I most feared.

Why my sister is THE HARDEST to break away from, I am not sure at this moment.

I just know that I can no longer deny her true colors, any more than I could deny, at various points, the true colors of the other abusers in my family and life.





God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4495
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2010 - 2:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Victoria, you posted while I was composing.



I just want to say THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU for the support.

Yes, I know most of the things you have pointed out, but you obviously know how much it means that you have taken the time and effort to post them to remind me.


One quick correction....not that it matters that much, but my A*al Retentive tendencies force me to make this correction:

I am on SSDI (Social Security Disability Insurance) benefits....NOT SSI.

SSDI is base on what a worker has paid into the Social Security system through FICA taxes. The same funds that are paid through FICA, that would then support (supposedly) one's regualr SS retirement benefits, are the same funds used to support SSDI benefits.

SSI, on the other hand, is a charity benefit, based on income below poverty levels, and has nothing to do with what has been pain into SSA.

I hope that makes sense. It is a "thing" with me, to try to make sure that people know that there is a BIG difference between SSDI benefits, and SSI benefits.



With that out of the way......


Back to what you posted....


It seems that you truly do understand where I am coming from.

Thank you for sharing about your relationship with your own sister. That means so much to me.

Thank you so much for expressing that you appreciate that I try to "give: here on the board. I have tried to do that.

But I cannot deny that I have done an awful lot of complaining, whining and crying here as well. However, I have a feeling that you understand why I have continued to vent here, despite the fact that there have been only a few who have responded, and many who have criticized. (I'm reminded of "allen", who told me I just wasn't "interesting" enough.)



I am printing out three of your paragraphs to me, to put on my mirror, my refrigerator, my desk.....as reminders to me:

".....you do get to make choices, so choose healthy ones that protect YOU. Let go of any feelings of guilt, as their choices (especially your sister's) are not your responsibility or under your control. Maybe that's easier said than done, but choose only what is right for you. Take care of your spirit, honor your mind and be kind to yourself emotionally.


There have been many times that I thought my life sucked so badly (in spite of the many miracles and blessings I received), and I would tell myself... "I wonder what will happen tomorrow?" So I would hold the idea in my mind that tomorrow, something would come clear, get resolved, shift for the positive... and I would decide to keep an open-door to these possibles.

About the SSI, imagine it in perfect harmony with your needs, and refuse to contemplate anything your sister might do, as that is displacing your incredible power and energy."




Thank you again, for your support, for the time you take to read my rants (and other posts), as well as the time you take to respond to me; and for your EMPATHY, most of all.



I am sure you and Roxie and others are AWARE that much of my ranting falls under the heading of trying to reinforce what I already know, in order to help me to get the courage to do what is best for me....because all my programming tells me that to make the choices I need to make, will spell some kind of disaster for me.


And to think, that this ALL dates back to my Mom's death 10 years ago, followed by the purchase of my first computer a year later, followed by a SLOW SETTING IN OF REALITY, which came sometimes in trickles, and sometimes in floods, but the majority of which happened as a result of coming here to UC, to the "witness" thread.

It's been a hell of a long 10 years.....

Hey, I'm a slow learner.

(Message edited by second_wind on April 26, 2010)
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Victoria
Advanced Member
Username: victoria

Post Number: 350
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2010 - 2:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I've never heard of "gaslighters" before, so this is great to be aware of for many of us, thanks!

I think this pattern is very active in my life... but then again, I'm thinking that most people I know are feeling severe strain and chaos... and it's global! So, maybe that's the result of the time we live in, our culture, our programming... energetics from the gathering of chaos around Mother Earth... the birth pangs before delivery.

I'm forcing myself to employ the right-brain creative side by playing with my guitar and learning to speak Spanish (maybe that's left-brain), but I'm trying to entertain myself with fun activities... as a reward for persevering!

Call yourself paranoid, and you'll feel paranoid.

INSTEAD call yourself brilliant, creative, gifted, loving, trustworthy and worthy of the best life has to offer! Post signs around your home for reminders, so you'll just think of and embrace the positive.

Give no quarter to anything else.

AND BREATHE BABY, BREATHE!
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4496
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2010 - 2:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

LOL! We are cross-posting tonight!!!

I hope you caught what I posted to you above!!!

You mentioned "posting signs" around the house!!!! My newest signs will be quotes from you, as I mentioned above!
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Victoria
Advanced Member
Username: victoria

Post Number: 351
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2010 - 3:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Yes, I wondered how you got my message before I posted it ~ hahaha! The Vulcan Mind-Meld, maybe?

I know (hope) you'll chime in when I need the reminders too.


It's late here (midnight) and I've been up since 4am... wish I could get sleepy! Think I'll make some oatmeal and warm milk!
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4497
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2010 - 4:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Gaslighting of "Targetted Individuals"


Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse that involves an increasing frequency of systematic withholding of factual information from, and/or providing false information to the target, having the gradual effect of making the victim anxious, confused, and less able to trust his or her own memory and perception. [wikipedia]




Cryptic References (Themes) as Gaslighting

This happens in street theater, but also passing conversation with friends and family members. When the target is profiled or, as in my case, an explosive event like covert drugging is used to mine information about the targetís fears and weaknesses, this information is used to create a collection of key phrases and topics. These triggers are then mentioned in the most casual conversations in an attempt to confuse and upset the target.

To complicate matters, as the target starts seeing patterns in the themes, these often come up in conversation from harmless sources, in the way that information normally spreads throughout culture. We all know the example of coming across a new word only to hear it five times throughout the next few days. These organically generated themes tend to make isolating gaslighting rather difficult if one is in the thick of a campaign of manufactured coincidence.




Gaslighting by Friends and Family

Oftentimes people closest to the target are approached and fed various lies and programming long before the target even knows that he/she has become a target. When the target tries to relate the events that are happening, the trusted friends and family tell the target various forms of ďno, itís your imagination, thatís just not likelyĒ. And if the target presses them once the stalking events become very intense, the target is subtly encouraged to normalize and quit mentioning the signs of stalking that they see.

In my experience, friends and family members are the worst / most-effective wielders of gaslighting, as the target, searching for meaning and support does his/her best to take the supportive advice to heart and regain some semblance of normalcy in their lives. Essentially, this push to have the target fall in line and obey normal life dictates, while still being harassed by stranger-stalkers and putting up with various other tactics, is forced to live in two worlds. Clearly, this is the very definition of gaslighting. If left suspended in this state, the target may begin to doubt their own experiences, memory and their very self. Induced self doubt is, indeed, terroristic by its very nature.

During the first explosive terrorist attacks on me, I was told again and again by loving family and friends that I needed to move forward and, essentially, forget about the traumatic events. And again and again these gaslighting precursors led me into increasingly dangerous situations, where I could not trust my own intuition about the danger I was walking into (further explosive events).

Not that these people did this intentionally. Not at all! The ones closest to me, it seems, just really care about me and itís easier for them to see what I report as delusional than true. There are other issues at work there, but the point is that gaslighting is not always intentional.

So, gaslighting permeates the gang stalking experience from day one. As the terroristic events build the target comes to expect them around every corner. Then as the target tries to regroup and find normal life again, gaslighting (whether intentional or reactionary as from targetís family members) threatens to further complicate the targetís intuition and decision making capability.

Gaslighting is at the heart of all gang stalking. Throughout the stalking campaign, whether to confuse or frighten the target, the goal is incessant psychological provocation that, if left misunderstood or is not countered by the target through disconnection with these vectors of attack, may result in psychological breakdown.










------------------


Again, the title I gave to this thread proves to be apropos......

The more I read about narcissism and abusive relationships, the more I learn about myself, in addition to what I learn about my abusers.


I have a hell of a lot to learn, and a hell of a lot to correct in myself.

However, despite discovering my own narcissistic traits (inverted Narcissism????), I still recognize the truth of the AA principle that "one cannot stay sober while sucking on a drunk's toe".





In the meantime, all this is distracting me from some "day-to-day" issues that need attention.

Of course, my difficulty in dealing with these "day-to-day" issues is obviously deeply connected to the other issues I am struggling with regarding mind control, abuse, narcissistic family/friends/others.

It is a vicious circle, and always has been; and I DO realize that it is up to ME to put the brakes on any downward spiral resulting from this repeated cycle.



I can only "fix" myself.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4498
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2010 - 5:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Narcissism

Narcissism is contagious. The narcissism creates a "bubble universe", similar to a cult. In this bubble, special rules apply.

These rules do not always correspond to outer reality.

Using complex defense mechanisms, such as projective identification, the narcissist forces his victims - spouse, mate, friend, colleague -
to "play a role" assigned to him by "God" - the narcissist.

The narcissist rewards compliance with his script and punishes any deviation from it with severe abuse.

In other words, the narcissist CONDITIONS people around him using intimidation, positive and negative reinforcements and feedback, ambient abuse ("gaslighting"), covert, or controlling abuse, and overt, classical abuse.

Thus conditioned, the narcissist's victims gradually come to assimilate the narcissist's way of thinking (follies a-deux) and his modus operandi - his methods.

You can abandon the narcissist - but the narcissist never abandons you.

He is there, deep inside your traumatic memories, lurking, waiting to act out. You have been modified, very much like an alien snatching bodies.








Relationships with narcissists inevitably and invariably end with the dawn of a double realization.

The first is that one has been (ab)used by the narcissist and the second is that one was regarded by the narcissist as a disposable, dispensable and interchangeable instrument (object).

The assimilation of this new gained knowledge is an excruciating process, often unsuccessfully completed. People get fixated at different stages. They fail to come to terms with their rejection as human beings - the most total form of rejection there is.

We all react to loss. Loss makes us feel helpless and objectified. When our loved ones die - we feel that Nature or God or Life treated us as playthings.

Losing the narcissist is no different to any other major loss in life. It provokes a cycle of bereavement and grief (as well as some kind of mild post traumatic stress syndrome in cases of severe abuse).

This cycle has 4 phases: denial, rage, sadness and acceptance.

Some people, however, cannot get past the denial, or rage phases.

They remain 'stuck", frozen in time, constantly replaying mental tapes of the interactions they had with the narcissists.

What they don't realize is that these tapes are "foreign objects" implanted by the narcissist in their mind; time bombs waiting to explode; kind of "sleeper cells" or post-hypnotic suggestion.

If you find yourself in this situation there is little you can do to help yourself. You need professional assistance.




Talk about the ultimate gaslighting!!! They drive you into therapy with their abuse, and then say that you are "unstable" and that is why you are in therapy.






Question from emmespalace

Sam, is there any way someone who is now in a relationship with someone who has NPD can break away from this relationship and remain safe from repercussions?

Sam Vaknin

It depends on the narcissist is question. Pathological narcissism rarely comes in "pure form". It is always CO-MORBID with other mental health disorders or with substance abuse or other reckless behaviors (DUAL DIAGNOSIS).

If the narcissist has strong anti-social (psychopathic) traits, he would tend to be vindictive and violent.

If the narcissist is also paranoid, he would tend to stalk, harass, and, generally, incapacitate his "persecutor".

But the best predictor of future violence is past violence.

In most cases, the narcissist's bark is far more dangerous than his bite. The reason is simple: the narcissist is a drug addict. He is after supply. This is energy, time and resource consuming.

The narcissist needs to dedicate himself to the pursuit of NEW narcissistic supply sources.
This need prevails over his desire to PUNISH old sources.








"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4500
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2010 - 9:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

These quotes, all in bold italics, as well as the ones in my post number #4497 above, are from a website by another TI.

You know how one thing leads to another when you are researching on the internet, and it was my searching for more insight into narcissism that led to a link to this person's site.

That is not a surprise at all, because, as I already pointed out, and as anyone reading this who also knows "most of my story", especially dating back to when I posted as "TheLabRat", the kind of people who are responsible for the various forms and levels of mind control are either narcissists, if not sociopaths.

-----------



Character Assassination


One thing Iíve noticed is that every person who let themselves be taken in by the gang of stalkers in my situation all have similar psychological compositions, though at first glance I would not have said this was true.

Only after these friendships had ended, and I was examining my relationships with them, did I see that each one had traits showing a lacking: will, creativity and personal response ability.

It seems that throughout the earlier phases of friendship Iíd overlooked the seemingly disparate traits as smaller issues each was working with.

Then in later interactions while they were pretending to be my friends, they put energy into also pretending to be developed people who had similar drives and ambitions as my own.

The moral of the story being that even though I loved these friends and overlooked their bouts of caving to popular demands, it is those traits and patterns of behavior that spoke much louder than the good when looking back on it all.

I saw a clearer picture of the lack of situations where they had gone out on a limb to express their own ideas, to follow their own passions. And of the situations I recalled where they had made (even before the stalking) conscious decisions, these decisions were to give in to some group ideal or directive.

When gaslighting started popping up in my circle of friends I started hearing the odd bit, stamped and presented slightly differently by each person, implying that the right thing to do is to conform; one friend would imply that maybe others donít want to hear my perspective on this or that, referring to private conversation and seeming to imply that he felt I was being selfish by sharing my perspectives.

Now, I see that even comments like that are warning signs, whereas Iíd always thought that itís self-evident that if we do not like what someone says itís up to us to walk away or add our own voice to the mix.

What that friend's comments were saying is that the he thinks the sharing of personal perspectives is bad if they do not fit in with the status quo. It means I cannot trust he will tell me what his feelings or thoughts are, regardless of whether or not it would help me or alert me to danger. What it means is that heís in it for himself [period].










The Butterfly Effect


Fear Induction

Another way organized stalking perpetrators use the butterfly effect is to set up larger indoctrination (or explosive) events around the targeted individual.

These events are highly structured and typically involve attempts to scare the target as much as possible.

By setting up these fear induction events, the perpetrators hope to manufacture initial conditions so that determining a TIs reactions to harassment will be made easier.

Setting up these larger fear induction events works in two ways. Info about a targetís reactions to these events is used to create custom harassment techniques to cause the most possible discomfort to the target. The general atmosphere of intimidation tends to narrow a targetís emotional outlook and reactions, thus making it easier to anticipate what the target will do next.

The main tactic and goal of gangstalking perpetrators is to control the target; that is to manufacture situations to actively influence a targetís experiences, and to give the target the impression that they have no control of the situation.

This isnít true, of course, but these ways of exerting the smallest amount of effort while creating the largest perception of control possible, are how gang stalking perpetrators keep the conspiracy running against the target, as well as keep costs to a minimum.







Suggestions for TIs

When it comes to the negative emotions that tend to build up in TIs who are starting to get a grip of understanding, patience and self-reliance is required.


There are many outlets one can utilize for getting out pent up anger, fear, confusion, and any other emotional build-up. Iíve gained a lot of peace of mind by sharing my own experiences, but others may feel good about writing their experiences in a more private way, or through other creative means.

If youíre reading this I think itís safe to assume that youíre a resourceful person who can brainstorm and find some creative ways to channel your experiences and related energies toward progress.

Just give it time and open to the possibilities of the best lemonade you can make from the lemons youíve stumbled across.

How do I deal with friends, family and those who do not understand what Iíve experienced?

You know, the pinnacle of this for me personally at this point is: to decidedly not give a flip what naysayers and pseudo-skeptics think, because if theyíve never been targeted of course they donít know what it feels like, of course it seems unlikely, thatís why itís called covert harassment.

Iíve found that the thing of it is many TIs feel torn between avoiding isolation and dealing with the distrust they feel toward others.

Iíve experienced accomplices passing themselves off as friends who are all too understanding (a ploy to get me to open up to and trust them), as well as trusted family and closest friends who just canít grasp what Iíve been through, try as they might to be supportive.

Clearly, there are dangers to both of the above extremes. Trusting people who are in actuality deceitful is not the safest route for obvious reasons.

That said, itís important not to get sucked into constant worry about whoís who and second guessing every impression you have about someone or the actions of a person. The more you can stop the second guessing wheel, the clearer your intuition about people becomes.

And donít beat yourself up for not noticing attackers sooner. Youíre not to blame for their actions of deceit, itís not your bag, their actions are their own.







For those TIs who have recently pieced together the covert war being waged on their rights and sanity; for those who may find their wheels a-spin about the whole malevolent conspiracy thatís unfolded around them: Where to turn is toward inner strength and away from fear.

While this may sound trite or easier said than done, the empowering thing about the terror training youíve gone through is that youíre outgrowing the fear reaction.

Donít worry, if youíre anything like me, this is an ongoing process and I donít claim to be completely fearless, but as many other targeted individuals can attest to, once you exhaust the fear energy (if not, hopefully, sooner) and are able to start retraining these reactions, you can expect to experience fewer instances of fear and anxiety, and a growing power and resolution to fight your battles and live your life.






Comment here - that is very true, above. I have posted many times (and even quoted a similar sentiment in some of the "narcissist" stuff above) about how KNOWLEDGE of this crap has been POWER, and the more I learned, the LESS I reacted. However, this does cause abusers/stalkers to "pull out bigger guns" in order to try to get a reaction.

I believe that is EXACTLY what has been happening in this situation with my sister. She has seen that the "normal" stuff thrown at me in this way, either by her, directly, or by others, has stopped causing me as much distress.

So, she has used what she knows about me, regarding my deepest fears and vulnerabilities, in order to get the "traumatized" reaction she wants. But, as usual, it is STILL done in a way that she can "spin" as being innocent of any ill intent towards me.








It seems to me that before finding the more salient bits of understanding about my experiences, and some first steps toward understanding even, I found more practical explorations for protecting my personal space by transforming the bits of scribbled notes and things Iíd written to something more orderly.

Along these lines I found that making my story known was one of the most effective tools for regaining control of my sense of self.

I think itís true that, like in the movie, The Matrix, once you have greater understanding you will not have to dodge bullets, for they will not be able to impact you at all.

In the meantime, making your story public is a decent way to start working with the idea of defining your personal sphere, your experience and perspective.

Internally, this is making order starting from within your Self, from where all true understanding comes.

On the most practical level, making your story public, no matter how few or how many people may read it, tends to shine a light of awareness on you and your situation that will deter stalking.

After all, gang stalking perpetrators rely on obfuscation; they would prefer to remain in the shadows and so if enough attention is brought to your situation they are likelier to go bother easier prey.

"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4501
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2010 - 9:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

When you know who the lead perp is

As most targets know, the very methodology of gang stalking entails covertness such that even though the target has mountains of evidence, this evidence is placed and acted out by multiple perpetrators in such a way that Ďobjectiveí evidence (evidence that would Ďproveí the harassment/attacks to outside observers) is not available.

Again, unfortunately, having Ďobjectiveí evidence is usually beyond the circumstances of targets. As indicated by the search term question itself, the person knows who is at least one of the leader types who has played a substantial part in rallying troops/controlling the stalker pawns. This means that the leader has made very calculated and tactical steps not to incriminate themselves. And in some cases, like my own where one leader type planted himself at a location where my family went out to eat, the leader types often like to flaunt their delusions of grandeur by having their stalker puppets drop hints about their identity early on, and then even displaying themselves in the wings if they feel like their clues have been overlooked. Not to digress too far, but in my experiences the fact that a leader type goes so far to Ďpresent themselvesí in such a way just shows how weak they are and how much theyíre seeking attention.




Targets are always strong people who tend to be very self-reliant and positive/progressive people.

Think about it, what would groups of stalkers, largely indoctrinated by leader types, have to benefit from if they attacked a weak and negative/defeatist person? Not much.

If you were a weak person prone to groupthink, youíd have been approached with indoctrination tactics in the hopes that you would become a stalker-pawn. In fact, many TIs come to a point where they start brainstorming about waving a white flag showing their surrender Ėanything to make it stop!

I myself went about this line of hypothesis one night. Then I realized that this is exactly how some targets are taken in as stalkers, and how some stalkers are pressured to participate Ėthey are shown Ďwhat happens to targetsí or are even made into targets for a shorter period of time even though the leader type was betting that they would cave and become willing participants Ėto present the illusion that by joining stalker ranks early on they have dodged a bullet.

Nope, only strong people who have a chance of helping others awaken to the covert systems of oppression become targeted individuals. Iíve said this before and Iíll say it again, targets may be the focus of attention for the stalker pawns, but to the leader, the target is a scapegoat Ėall the pawns are just as much targets of their control tactics -more, in fact.

These are the dynamics of covert manipulation. The leader type works at indoctrinating weaker people who are prone to groupthink, and when they find a suitable target, they choose this person because they know the targetís nature of compassion and fairness can work to their (the stalker leaderís) benefit. The leader is a negative pole, and the target is a positive pole, itís the group(s) of stalkers that Ďdo the workí in this circuit.






The only disagreement I have with this is that there appears to be quite a bit of evidence that some targets are just "targets of concenience", used for "target practice". However, I would bet money that, just as in so many of the MKULTRA experiments, the targets of convenience are people like mental patients, or severely ill patients in hospitals, as well as minorities and other poverty-stricken people, and other "captive" targets like prisoners and soldiers.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Roxie
Intermediate Member
Username: roxanne

Post Number: 119
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2010 - 10:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Victoria: Great advice! So sorry you have had to go through this, as well.

SW: Glad you found the information you posted above.

I found out about the whole narcissistic/gaslighting spectrum about 2 years ago and read everything I could find on the internet about it.

I had NO idea that people could do things like this to another person, especially those they claim to care for. What an eye opener!

I found out I was NOT crazy, I was NOT imagining things. Reading through the message boards of those "survivor" forums confirmed what I had suspected and they validated me.

It put a name to what I was experiencing. And once I could "name" it and put it into some sort of context, I could then read what others had posted about how they handled it.

I guess it's sort of like having a medical ailment, that has yet to be diagnosed, and no one, believes you. But YOU know what YOU are experiencing. Then, finally, after thousands of people become vocal about the same or similar experiences, some one wakes up, and addresses the problem. Not that a cure has been found, but coping mechanisms are suggested.

It's like coming to this site. Most of us here have experienced "something", Whitley and others, also experiencers, have taken the time to write about it and set up boards, like this, and we come here to share our experiences, read about others, and learn to cope.

And the only way "I've" learned to cope is to totally disengage from my abusers. It's not easy. Especially with family. It's not like I could quit a job with an abusive boss or coworker, and move on. These people (family) are always there. And when they learned "I" wasn't playing the game, anymore, they ramped it up. They kicked and screamed, and when that no longer worked, they sulked and pouted, and when that didn't work, suddenly, someone was "dying" (not really, that is just what I was told) and therefore, attempted to play on my sympathy and sense of compassion, and when that didn't work, they (at least for the time being) moved on to some other unfortunate soul to abuse.

Will they be back? I'm sure when their new supply runs out they will "attempt" to worm their way back into my life. But I will do my best to be UNAVAILABLE.

******************************************************************************** ***************************

I had written the above, apparently while your were posting your last 2 posts, SW. Thought I'd send it anyway.

Good Lord! That last paragraph you wrote about "targets of convenience". Yes, yes, yes, I've seen that! BOTH the mentally and physically impaired. And BOTH targeted by the SAME person. All under the guise of "caring for someone". This person made herself appear to the outside world as a saint and a martyr, but I never bought into it. It always seemed "off" to me, especially when I was alone with this person. The outside world saw her as giving up so much of herself for these individuals. What they didn't see, was how she abused these individuals, in small, weird ways. Like making the mentally ill person wait until after everyone had eaten to allow her to eat, then have the mentally ill woman clean the kitchen, afterwards. (I was a teenager at the time) The great Saint would have me call this poor mentally ill woman, to dinner, after we had finished, and when I went to get her, the poor woman was pacing in front of her door, waiting to eat. It broke my heart. I called the abuser on it, I told her I felt like I was calling a dog to the kitchen for leftovers and scraps,(a dangerous thing for me to do, as a child) and the abuser just brushed it aside, like what she had done was the most normal thing in the world.

So why did she bring this poor woman into her home? This woman was NOT a relative. Well, the dear Saint got some sort of government supplementation for allowing this woman to live in her home. Talk about convenience! Getting paid to abuse. How messed up is that?

Oh, this brings up so many memories.
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Victoria
Advanced Member
Username: victoria

Post Number: 352
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2010 - 2:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

SW wrote:

"I was "targeted" or "tagged" from an early age, because of my sensitivity, my "abilities", and because of my intensely strong "observational skills" and "memory", to the point of being referred to as having a "photographic memory".



This sounds so familiar! I don't have near the intellect you have, however I do have gifts that many others might envy.


So... it's occurred to me so many times that there are "powers," "forces," and as you put it, "controllers" who's main desire and focus is to keep the "gifted" dis-empowered.


Now, why would this happen?

What's the hidden, secret driving force behind this?

And exactly WHO is giving orders, motivation, directives, etc. to the "controllers," "narcissists," "perpetrators,"whatever you want to call them?




I have two theories... and it's only my way of trying to make sense out of what is totally irrational.


1. There are "Powers" (as in TPTB -- otherwise known as the Biblical Powers) who seek to keep us gifted ones out of balance, out of our power... to neutralize us so that we can't accomplish what our soul's mission is... to bring peace, light, healing, balance... the positive aspects of creation... into this time/space.


2. In ancient times, and within the Egyptian Mystery School teaching, there were 4 levels of Mastery for Ascension. You could say participation was required by everyone, and the tiers of Mastery naturally formed a pyramid.

The 1st level that needs to be mastered before progressing, deals with the mundane physical world we all know so well.

The 2nd level (I think, as I'd have to listen to 40 hours of tapes to get this accurately -- sorry!)... The 2nd level of mastery is the realm of the "Irrational." This is one of the most confusing levels, as everything is upside-down and backward. Nothing is as it seems!

The entire culture participated in the Mystery School teaching at whatever level they could master, regardless of their class level. But most practiced at the 1st level, and were not able to progress beyond that. Mastery of the Irrational was quite an accomplishment. The 3rd and 4th levels don't apply to this discussion... but IT'S the 2nd level... the Irrational Realm... might be what WE are attempting to master.


WE were participants together in the Egyptian Mystery School in a former civilization long forgotten. But today, we are attempting to recover the soul-memories, the teachings, BUT without the Teachers, without the MASTERS available to guide us through, because we are trying to retrieve soul-memory. WE have mastered it before and we can Master it again... if WE come into the awareness of exactly WHAT the object lesson is.

WHAT IF... the "perps" the "controllers," et al, were availing themselves (unknowing of course), were volunteering themselves at the soul-level, to provide US with the IRRATIONAL lessons to teach us how to navigate this confusing realm!

Second Wind and Roxie, and whom ever else can relate to this dialog... what if WE were trying to bring this gift back.

The highest ethics were required. Intellect, Grace, the qualities of Beauty, Discipline, Endurance were all needed to prevail in Mastery.


So, what if this is what WE are trying to accomplish? What if all this confusion is simply part of the puzzle of Mastery.

To me, it sounds like you (WE) are getting it done... making positive progress... in spite of the outer appearance of being on the precipice of peril.

I don't know the answer! I do know that this seems to me to be a plausible explanation of the chaos we're enmeshed in...


And, reading all the above dialog... even though it is all true and accurate, and seems to be real... WHAT IN THE WORLD IS ORCHESTRATING ALL THIS DRAMA AND TRAUMA???

YES, Roxie, cutting off the perp's access to our spirit, denying their feeding frenzy is exactly the correct response!

But it's in the detaching from the emotions of the drama being played-out that grants us Mastery Level of the Irrational Realm.


I'm just looking at this with a wider perspective... trying to make it benefit us in unimagined ways. With this perspective, how can we call ourselves "victim" when in a hidden way, WE are on a path of Mastery... to bring back a long-lost and hidden body of Ancient Knowledge?

I think it's possible!


In reading the insightfulness of what is posted here and is occurring on the "mundane" level, then connecting it to the Mystery School teachings... it makes complete sense to me... and it's a gift.


Knowing this, having this piece of the puzzle gives us the opportunity to seize the day and claim what is already ours to have. All the great teachers across time have told us we have the ability.


The controllers become our teachers!


In the MOTK, Whitley wrote that resistance is necessary for the butterfly to emerge from the cocoon (or something like that). That "a NEW world is available to us if we can take it!"
Eschew Obfuscation
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Roxie
Intermediate Member
Username: roxanne

Post Number: 120
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2010 - 3:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Victoria:

WOW...just WOW!

I really believe you are on to something!

I mentioned, a while back, either in this thread or the Witness thread that I had been wondering if all this "controlling from infancy" was part of the whole grand scheme of things. Well, maybe not in those words, but, basically that "we" the victims or rather, survivors, are an experiment, and our parents/family are somehow, unknowingly, past of that same experiment. What a covert way to reach as many people as possible, as early as possible.
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Mark
Senior Member
Username: mark

Post Number: 2527
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2010 - 4:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I remember an old joke;

The guy says, "My father taught me how to swim by throwing me out of the boat into the lake."

His friend says, "Wow, that must have been a tough way to learn how to swim."

The guy says, "Oh, it wasn't so bad...
the hard part was getting out of that burlap sack."

By the way, the term gaslighting was coined from the movie "Gaslight" with Charles Boyer and Ingrid Bergman. It clearly illustrates the tactic.
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4504
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2010 - 5:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Roxie, YES, there was even a recent story on TV, just in the last week, about a caregiver, a woman, being in court for neglect of an elderly woman. The news story even showed the woman caregiver in the courtroom. I think it was neglect, and perhaps theft....I can't remember exactly what happened, but I think the elderly woman was left to die. The caregiver was receiving state funds to care for the woman.

I can't find the story online, but there are plenty of other similar stories that come up in a search.



Exploitation and abuse of the helpless is certainly not new, nor is it by any means rare. What does that say about society when it is government sanctioned and paid for with tax dollars?






--------------


Are you being gaslighted?


Here are the signs:

1. You are constantly second-guessing yourself

2. You ask yourself, "Am I too sensitive?" a dozen times a day.

3. You often feel confused and even crazy

4. You're always apologizing to your mother, father, boyfriend, boss, etc..

5. You can't understand why, with so many apparently good things in your life, you aren't happier.

6. You frequently make excuses for your abuser's behavior to friends and family.

7. You find yourself withholding information from friends and family so you don't have to explain or make excuses.

8. You know something is terribly wrong, but you can never quite express what it is, even to yourself.

9. You start lying to avoid the put downs and reality twists.

10. You have trouble making decisions.

11. You have the sense that you used to be a very different person - more confident, more fun-loving, more relaxed.

12. You feel hopeless and joyless.

13. You feel as though you can't do anything right.

14. You wonder if you are a "good enough" girlfriend/wife/employee/friend/family member.





---------

Gaslighting: The Narcissistís Game


Victims or ďtargetsĒ of Narcissists are often nurturing, sensitive, forgiving human beings. It is precisely those character traits that make she/he (more often victims are females rather than males) more vulnerable to abuse from the Narcissist. As a result of their relationship, the victim or ďtargetĒ can suffer from depression, drug/alcohol abuse and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Psychological abuse is very serious; it leaves emotional scars. Scars, that no one can see, but they are as real as any bleeding wound.



That article talks about a co-worker's gaslighting tactics, which I most definitely experienced. WORKPLACE BULLYING/MOBBING.



Buf check out the comments following the article. It really helps me to know that that I am NOT crazy, because so many of the things that happen to me (not just the direct stuff from family members) has been experienced by others.



One of the commenters talks about homes being broken into, and property taken or damaged.

Another talks about how the narcissist in her life even went so far as to sabotage her relationship with her (the victim's) therapist.

I have also experienced that.


The "leader types" of gaslighing abusers find ways to sabotage virtually ALL relationships of the target, in order to completely isolate the target, and further brainwash the target into believing that "there must be something wrong with me".


I know I am lucky that I have NOT lived close to, and had regualr close-up contact with, the gaslighting narcissists in my family. Of course, I managed to find people to abuse me in this way, in the form of friends, husbands, boyfriends, counselors, doctors, employers......you name it. And my family narcissist handlers have managed to manipulate and control nearly ALL aspects of my life, ALL my life.


I have also been, for many years, a victim of "Abuse By Proxy"


If all else fails, the abuser recruits friends, colleagues, mates, family members, the authorities, institutions, neighbours, the media, teachers Ė in short, third parties Ė to do his bidding. He uses them to cajole, coerce, threaten, stalk, offer, retreat, tempt, convince, harass, communicate and otherwise manipulate his target. He controls these unaware instruments exactly as he plans to control his ultimate prey. He employs the same mechanisms and devices. And he dumps his props unceremoniously when the job is done.

One form of control by proxy is to engineer situations in which abuse is inflicted upon another person. Such carefully crafted scenarios of embarrassment and humiliation provoke social sanctions (condemnation, opprobrium, or even physical punishment) against the victim. Society, or a social group become the instruments of the abuser.

Abusers often use other people to do their dirty work for them. These - sometimes unwitting - accomplices belong to three groups:

I. The abuser's social milieu

Some offenders - mainly in patriarchal and misogynist societies Ė co-opt other family members, friends, and colleagues into aiding and abetting their abusive conduct. In extreme cases, the victim is held "hostage" - isolated and with little or no access to funds or transportation. Often, the couple's children are used as bargaining chips or leverage. Ambient abuse by the abuser's clan, kin, kith, and village or neighborhood is rampant.

II. The victim's social milieu

Even the victim's relatives, friends, and colleagues are amenable to the considerable charm, persuasiveness, and manipulativeness of the abuser and to his impressive thespian skills. The abuser offers a plausible rendition of the events and interprets them to his favor. Others rarely have a chance to witness an abusive exchange first hand and at close quarters. In contrast, the victims are often on the verge of a nervous breakdown: harassed, unkempt, irritable, impatient, abrasive, and hysterical.

Confronted with this contrast between a polished, self-controlled, and suave abuser and his harried casualties Ė it is easy to reach the conclusion that the real victim is the abuser, or that both parties abuse each other equally. The prey's acts of self-defense, assertiveness, or insistence on her rights are interpreted as aggression, lability, or a mental health problem.

III. The System

The abuser perverts the system - therapists, marriage counselors, mediators, court-appointed guardians, police officers, and judges. He uses them to pathologize the victim and to separate her from her sources of emotional sustenance - notably, from her children.

Forms of Abuse by Proxy

Socially isolating and excluding the victim by discrediting her through a campaign of malicious rumors.

Harassing the victim by using others to stalk her or by charging her with offenses she did not commit.

Provoking the victim into aggressive or even antisocial conduct by having others threaten her or her loved ones.

Colluding with others to render the victim dependent on the abuser.

But, by far, her children are the abuser's greatest source of leverage over his abused spouse or mate.



----------


Do narcissists realize what they are?



Would a narcissist take his camping chair and steal away to an isolated peaceful pond to sit quietly to reflect on his life/deeds/words?

Would he make a fearless moral inventory of himself and resolve to make amends to anyone he had harmed by his callousness?

No.

I donít think he is capable of that much introspection. I guess that is probably good for him in a way. If Nís had the ability to care about others, if the were able to realize how much harm they have caused other people, if they knew how other people hated to deal with them, even a momentÖI doubt they would be able to live with themselves.

No, they think that we (the victims) are the ones to blame, for everything. Every thing that goes wrong is someone elseís fault. The N can do no wrong. Just like the preschooler who gets caught being naughty, he quickly looks for someone else to blameÖeven if itís his teddy bear.

Whenever I read a post from a person who is afraid that he/she has become like his/her Narcissist Ė I will frequently comment to assure them that if they were becoming like the N, they certainly wouldnít be worried about it. They certainly wouldnít be asking.

Do I think that the N might ever have an epiphany and realize what a scum bag he is? Could he develop a conscious and repent from how he has abused anyone having the misfortune of knowing him?

Not in a million years.

The photo above is entitled ďHidden Depths.Ē
There is no depth to a Narcissist, but there is a great deal that is hiddenÖespecially from their ďsupply.Ē




Just like the fact that a narcissist would almost never agree to enter counselling, either individual or marriage/family.....like I said earlier, that would be like being asked to take a polygraph test.


One of the commenters on the above article, said:

"I agree that they are incapable of introspection but I do believe that they know what they are. I agree that they donít have any actual human emotions or realize or care about how they affect others. We are weak in their eyes simply for having emotions.

I do believe that they know exactly how un-fabulous they really are and every single word and action is a conscious attempt at convincing everyone else, and themselves, otherwise. They run from introspection so that they donít have to face these demons. When they are not receiving enough supply, we get narcissistic rage, right? Yet another attempt to avoid the truth of what they are. One big fireball of distraction for them, destruction for us."



I agree with that.

My sister HAS admitted that one of her husbands (althought she changes her story about which husband) told her that she is "Shallow & Surface Mounted".



I read that a perfect caricature of a female narcissist would be Jessica Rabbit. Well, when my sister makes light fun of her own "drama queen" tendencies, she loves to say, "I'm not really bad; I'm just drawn that way"!!!


Also, on some level, she knows what she is, because these are two of her favorite songs:

Busy Being Fabulous


and especially, this one:

Six Foot Town


My brakes are on fire
From trying to slow down
I'm always burning my tires
And my horn is to loud
I catch people staring
Looking funny at me
When I step to the window
And I toss a TV

Sometimes I get crazy
And it makes a big scene
But when I hit 21
I wanna stand up and scream
I'm filthy rich with laughter
I'm too big for the room
You know from two stories up
A Zenith makes a big boom

It's hard to get around
In a six foot town
When your ten feet tall
Everything is so small
I'm always bumping my head
I'm way to long for the bed
It's hard to get around
In a six foot town

Some people live
Inside a tiny little box
They're preoccupied
About mismatching their socks
I never been one
To worry about much
I just wanna laugh and love
I just wanna live it up

It's hard to get around
In a six foot town
When your ten feet tall
Everything is so small
I'm always bumping my head
I'm way to long for the bed
It's hard to get around
In a six foot town.

Sometimes I stumble
Just because of my size
But hey y'all that's alright
That's the way God made me
I am what I am
And I can't do nothing 'bout that

It's hard to get around
In a six foot town
When your ten feet tall
everything is so small
I'm always bumping my head
I'm way to long for the bed
It's hard to get around
In a six foot town




*****sigh*****







---

I find it amazing (though I shouln't be surprised) how many victims of gaslighting by narcissistic people, have wanted to RECORD every conversation with their abuser, because, as has already been mentioned, they are notorious for saying "That's not what I said" or "I never said that" or "That never happened", or, the more subtle things like, "You sure remember things differently than I do!"



----


another commenter on one of the the pages above said:

"To my fellow sufferers/survivors: What a kinship we have! I was paralyzed several years ago, and have since come to realize I was poisoned with arsenic by one of these opportunistic, self-serving creatures. I was in rehab for the symptoms for 6 weeks. Praise God I am stronger than ever. These parasites are a joke. They are bonafide criminals and sociopaths. be patient and be very courageous, for God loves justice, in all forms. Itís just a matter of time. All of this may sound absurd, but there are countless numbers of prosecuted cases similar to mine. Please, be STRONG (youíre stronger than you know for having dealt with this EVIL.) Also, know that you are in my prayers. Please, please try to help those in need whenever possible. It will help you more than can be measuredÖANYTHING !!














----------------


One plush summer you come to me ripe and ready
And bad through and through
With that deep mystical soul synergy pumping steady
Between me and you
Lovin' all the beautiful work we've done, cara mia
And it's barely July
If we keep on boppin' until Labor Day
Li'l Ms Abbie - bye bye

What will it be - some soothing herb tea?
That might be just the thing
Let's say we spike it with Deludin
Or else - maybe tonight a hand of solitaire

CHORUS:
Flame is the game
The game we call Gaslighting Abbie
It's a luscious invention for three
One summer by the sea

With the long weekend that's comin' up fast
Let's get busy
There's just too much to do
That black mini looks just like the one she's been missin'
Feels good on you
There's a few items we need in town - allez-vous girl
There's no time to waste
Such as fresh cable and fifteen watt bulbs
Couple dozen - it's a big old place
Let's keep it light - we'll do a fright night
With blood and everything
Some punky laughter from the kitchen
And then - a nice relaxing hand of solitaire

You can choose the music
I'll set up my gear
Later on we'll chill and watch the fireworks from here

How can you knock this mighty spitelock
Check out the work itself
A mix of elegance and function
That's right - a tweak or two and then she's out of here

"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4505
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2010 - 6:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Victoria, I feel fairly sure that you are aware of what my response to you is going to consist of, and I therefore say to you "don't take this personally".


It's possible that there could come a time when I will be able and willing to look at this situation, and this phenomenon of ritualistic abuse and mind control by narcissistic HUMAN BEINGS, driven by their own prejudices, fears and/or their greed and ambitions for power, money and control, or simply some kind of "security", from a metaphysical standpoint.

I am not there yet.



And Roxie, yes, there is plenty of evidence for what you just put forth; that control (and manipulation, and exploitation, from infancy, of any who can be "means to an end", actually has been "the plan" of men.

I don't know what you mean by "grand scheme of things", but the only "grand scheme" I am concerned with at the moment is that one driven by humans who desire to control other humans, on whatEVER level or scale.

Yes, there have been, and are still, some "unwitting" players in this "grand scheme", on whatever level you want to consider. But, by and large, the perpetrators are AWARE, to one degree or another, that they are "part of an experiment", and that they are, to one degree or another, "denying people of the right to thrive" by participating in these "experiments".


It's like I pointed out about my narcissistic sister; I believe, and she indicates, that she is AWARE, at least on some level, that she is a narcissist.

I can't resist saying that, at this moment, there are two phrases come to mind:

One is about what remains if you put lipstick on a pig......

The other is about anyone who sells their virtue for money, or gives away their freedom for temporary security, neither deserves, or will ever actually know, either one.

On the larger scale, my current "mundane" theory is that TPTB are and always have been HUMAN MEN WHO HAVE GAINED POWER OVER THE PEOPLE. That power was never gained with any thought given to the best interests of the people.

Yes, I do believe there has been, and continues to be, on several levels, attempts by TPTB to derail and subvert the abilities of those people who see through the power plays, or even those with special gifts, who see through "The Matrix"! There is even documented proof of that sort of subversion in the events of COINTELPRO, and other large-scale attempts at supression of free thought.

there is ALSO the equally, perhaps even MORE, unforgivable sin of setting out to exploit those same "free thinkers" and their special abilities for the use and benefit of the FEW/TPTB, with no regard for the consequences to the exploited, as in MKULTRA.

The only metaphysical slant to all this that I care much about (at this moment) is the fact that the controllers, TPTB, the GREAT AND POWERFUL OZ, sought to hijack all things spiritual, psychological, paranormal, metaphysical and physical, in order to further an agenda of complete control.

And another thing I will point out, regarding whether I am willing or able to entertain any possible "metaphysical" bigger picture, has everything to do with a very well-known psychological principle called "Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs".

Broken down into it's most basic meaning, this principle observes that a human being's most basic needs must first be met, before the human can progress up the pyramid of needs to the next level, and the next, and the next, all the way up to "enlightenment". In other words, if you are starving, or dying of illness, or otherwise living in life-threatening circumstances, you cannot seek larger issues of security and safety; and if you cannot achieve safety and security, you cannot hope to achieve love, companionship and intimacy, and on up the pyramid of human needs.

If a person is constantly overwhelmed with trying to satisfy the very bottom levels of basic survival, one cannot "evolve".

That is one of the basic premises behind religious charities, like the salvation army. If you feed a man's hungry belly, and give him a safe and warm place to sleep, he will be more open to hearing about "salvation".

So, back to the more "localized" or "little picture".....abusers do seek, through whatever tactics, to threaten their victims, and to keep them so preoccupied with basic survival, that they cannot function well enough to get away from the abuser.

A perfect example is what I already mentioned, in that I am so preoccupied with trying to get out from under the control of my main "handler and abuser", that it prevents me from being effective at dealing with my OWN "MUNDANE" but very REAL LIFE issues. I cannot move into the next level of satisfying other basic needs of safety, or anything above that, if I am preoccupied with the drama and trauma caused by my family. It's like trying to learn French, while being forced to wear headphones that are blaring out another foreign language.




So, again, Victoria, FOR THE TIME BEING, I am not interested in the metaphysical possibilities behind all this. I began studying metaphysics in my early 20s, (although I was manipulated into some of that "study), so I am no metaphysical neophyte.

Right now, I much more interested in the fact that it was that very interest in things metaphysical and/or paranorma, that got me "tagged" from an early age, so I am much more interested in learning, discussing, and reinforcing the realities I must face in order to free myself from real (not theorhetical) threats to my "ability to thrive".


If I can stay on task, and remain focused, and not get "sucked back in" or "distracted", from learning what I need to learn in order to get FREE from the influence of my abusers, so that I am not constantly chasing my tail and reacting, or fearing for my life, or the life of my pets, THEN I might reach the point where I can move on up the pyramid "needs", one of which is the need to think about the possible metaphysical ramifications of my situation, and life in general.

It is that challenge of facing these dark issues from my history and current life, and learning, in spite of the odds, how to recognize what happened/is happening, and learing how to get free (or die trying), that is my "mission" at present.

And, for that matter, it would also appear that a big part of my "mission" in this life is to SURVIVE TRAUMA AND ABUSE, and to try to help anyone else who might cross my path with the same issues, by sharing my own experiences, strength, and, yes, HOPE; Hope that I/WE can and will survive, and find a way to thrive, and that I/we will NOT "die trying".



So, perhaps I will have a longer discussion about the "less mundane" aspects of this subject, at a later time!



-----


"There you go, Man!
Keep as cool as you can!
Face piles of trials with smiles!
It riles them to believe
That you perceive the web they weave!
And keep on thinking FREE!

"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4506
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2010 - 6:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

When I first began learning about all the various aspects of MC, and first heard the term "gaslighting", I knew exactly what was meant, having seen, and strongly identified with, the movie of the same name.

"Gaslight" was a remake of an earlier, British version.


A much later movie, "Midnight Lace with Doris Day and Rex Harrison, was even more frightening to me, and I personally identified with it even more, because of the rapid-fire nature of the threatening events, and the "near misses". It even had many of the same basic elements of "Gaslight", and it was definitely about being "gaslighted", with the objective to commit murder made to appear as a suicide, after "gaslighting" into an appearance of "mental illness".....all in order to get her money. It was not as well made and acted as "Gaslight" 1944, but it still frightened me more.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4507
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2010 - 7:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Victoria, here is something for you, that discusses the "metaphysical" (for lack of a better term) aspects to this phenomenon. You will find it interesting, and will probably agree with much of it. On one level, so do I. But thankfully, she points out the following:

"Iíve found that many people who one day discover they are targets of gang stalking, are the more forward thinking, self-possessed kinds of people.

Often they are compassionate people who strive to take personal responsibility for negative experiences, even when such experiences as ongoing harassment and attacks from others are outside of their control.

To these targets, itís up to each of us to spread awareness and thereby bring what we can control within our sphere of influence.

In doing so, by increasing awareness in ourselves and others, we close up exploits in the gray areas through which malicious people try to lure us into self-debilitating stances like ongoing fear, depression and all things negative.

It seems time to learn about the different STO approaches called for when dealing with STS versus STO beings.

Being kind to Undecideds means realizing that these people have the right to make their own decisions and must come to terms with their actions and developmental hurdles. We can help these people by sharing what we know and not giving in to the fear they try to elicit from us.

Being kind to STS beings means not giving them power in the form of negative energy. Surviving and turning these negative experiences into something useful means developing understanding of these phenomena, consciousness of our internal struggles throughout these ordeals, and continued pushing ahead to pursue our passions and goals.







Also, the TI who wrote the above, and the rest of that site, some of which I already linked to, has a "personal story" that I would find "crazy" sounding, if it were not for the fact that I have experienced so MANY, MANY of the same kinds of things....even some EXACT things, that she describes.

As I read her very long and incredible story, it was yet another instance of my mouth dropping open over and over, with utter shock and amazement at the similarities in our stories.

Her descriptions of being drugged and having missing time, and bizarre abuse and mind control while being drugged and held captive, even right down to the city where one of her incidents took place......I just was stunned at the similarities. And that is just one small area.

Her story is so bizarre, that I find myself able to read it both from the perspective of someone who has been there, and also from the perspective of someone who cannot even imagine such things actually happening.

It caused me to, once again, realize just HOW MUCH OF THE TRAUMA I experienced, I have actually forgotten. I remembered many things I had forgotten, and realized that there are SO MANY THINGS, over so LONG A TIME, that I will probably never remember all of it.

I found myself shocked at her recall of so many details. But then, I realized that she is obviously much younger than I am, and the weirdness like she describes, for me, began in the early 1970s.

After so many, many years of this type of thing, I reached the point where I dissociated SO OFTEN to this stuff. To this day, I still do it.

Some of that dissociation is an intended and desired (by the perps) result of the harassment itself. Dissociation truly IS a learned coping skill, and ALL kinds of MC tactics, on whatever levels, work better on people who already have a natural tendency to dissociate, due to early childhood trauma in the family.

But that is why so much of the many dozens or more, of incidents I have experienced, have been FORGOTTEN using dissociation.

Even today, that dissociation takes the form of my conscious decision to NOT REACT when any of the harassment or weirdness happens.

As I learned more about it, I changed from TRAUMATIC dissociation, to CONSCIOUS AND DELIBERATE dissociation. BUT, the resulting forgetting of the events still happens, sometimes, even if I record it in my diaries, or post about it here.

When I go back and read older posts I have made here, it shocks me how much I posted that I have forgotten, or don't remember posting, especially when I have posted about specific current incidences. That is why it's good to have diaries and records.

Of course, having those things has also been a SOURCE or avenue for surveillance and harassment! I have even had, several different times in my life, my diaries invaded, and information in them used against me in the form of harassment. I have also had MONTHS of pages torn out of my diaries, as well as having had ALL OF MY DIARIES UP TO AGE 28, FLAT OUT STOLEN.

Same with saved computer files.


But still, I am glad I have the documentation that I do have....simply because it is a RECORD for things that get "forgotten" or pushed out of my mind.

And even if very few, or even NO people, actually read more than a small percentage of what I write, or the info I link to, the act of posting IS THERAPEUTIC for me, and, I HOPE, might prove helpful to others.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Victoria
Advanced Member
Username: victoria

Post Number: 353
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2010 - 2:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Once again, I marvel at you and your ability to cope and survive... and your analytical abilities to find patterns and research the details to such a fine degree. I've visited the links you provided too, thanks! On top of all that you do, I wonder how you manage to write and post so much. You have a great capacity to be focused on so many details and give them a good airing here!


I've not had the extreme difficulties of not being free-to-be as you have (though some have tried)... but I can tell you that by the age of 28 I counted the times that I faced death at the hands and intent of (mostly unknown) others, and the count neared 20-times before it scared me so much that I had to quit counting.

My older sister, at the time, had not told me of her earlier attempts to kill me. I was aware of the death peril, but not her purposeful intent to do so. She finally told me those details during one of her bi-polar episodes, and did so with maniacal glee when I was about 50!

Since then... since reading this board, I've wondered if she was a MC target. Now that she's gone, I will never know for sure, but boy, did she have a rough go of it. The entangled mess she created in her destructive phases finally did her in and she could no longer endure her life, so she paid someone to end it for her...$20,000! I'd like to send that b*stard to jail, but he destroyed all evidence, as she assigned him to be executor of her estate.

I believe that her ex-husband (an idiot, as*-h*le attorney) was an evil passive/aggressive controller, out to destroy her at any cost, and played out the martyr role so well for others, but I saw right through him and his true colors were revealed to me, as I hold him responsible for sending her over the edge with his terrorizing tactics. I never knew if what she told me he did was real or fabricated, but my intuition was that he did what she said he did to frighten her... and down the rabbit hole she would go!

I know my older sister suffered from bi-polar disease, but I also know that she was victimized by her therapists, prescription drugs, shock-treatments, being in an institution, and god knows what else she was subjected to. She did tell me once that she was "being studied!" I never knew what that meant, and she would never speak of it again.

Such things have been a continuing mystery to me for the most part. So my history is slightly different from yours, yet there are so many overlapping similarities that I wish I could have helped her... but it was impossible because she "hated" me... for no good reason, and tried her best to control and manipulate ME.

Yes, you're right about me being compassionate and sensitive to the plight of others... and for many years, she even made me feel responsible for her miserable life and the disastrous choices SHE made. So, I did all I could for her over the many adult years, until I finally had to save me from her, and detach by moving 1,000 miles away.

Yet for me, there seems to be a protective force directing and protecting me... a voice that would command/instruct me to take defensive maneuvers that would save my life... and indeed, I followed that powerful command implicitly, without analyzing anything, and thus live and survive. But I was also commanded/directed to "save" others... which would put ME in jeopardy, but the protection was always there. I would be "fearless" until the incident was over, then shock would settle in and shake me to the core for a while.

There were two occasions that I actually did die, when I didn't give that voice credence. So for me, the mystical directives have always been part of the equation, though it was something I couldn't begin to comprehend until my 40s due to the fact that I was a workaholic and didn't take the time to search out any answers.

It's been a 20+ year odyssey now, and the more I learn, the more mysterious it becomes. Funny how that works. Maybe that's why most ppl choose to stay blind, and don't ask the "WHY" questions.
Eschew Obfuscation
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Victoria
Advanced Member
Username: victoria

Post Number: 354
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2010 - 2:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Another thing SW, I understand what you mean by needing to deal with the reality of survival first.

I go into those phases too when I'm under intensive attack. But for me, I have come to realize that I need to control my emotions (I have PTSD now from all the trauma) in order to come out of the PTSD chemistry generated by an attack. Isolation and America's Funniest Home Video is my home-remedy for that.

But again, YES, the attack needs to stop before I can begin the transition into a metaphysical position. I've always been self-disciplined, so I will make myself go out to nature, play my guitar, find something to make me laugh, with the therapeutic intention of changing my PTSD chemistry. At times, I get "stuck in my tracks" by the fear that's generated. Still, I don't want to take or rely on pharmaceuticals to alter me, as I don't want my natural bio-chemistry forever changed. I've been suckered into that by MDs in the past, but never again!

I'm not suggesting that others shouldn't rely on them, but I've found them to be very toxic for me, and I'm allergic to so many drugs that I hate to even try anything else that's not organic.
Eschew Obfuscation
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Roxie
Intermediate Member
Username: roxanne

Post Number: 121
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Tuesday, April 27, 2010 - 8:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Victoria:

Where can I find out more about the Egyptian Mystery school teachings you have mentioned?