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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4312
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 - 3:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

It's fascinating how catharsis, and sometimes crisis and conflict, can actually lead to growth.

I found these videos by way of "serendipity", as a result of recent conflict in my own life, and on the board.

Almost every time I end up in conflict with someone, especially here on the board, I end up learning a lesson I needed to learn.



It's not that this guy is saying anything all that profound, it's not new. The point is, the timing, and the fact that, for whatever reason, he reached me.

I don't even have to agree with everything he says, and it's also OK (and he even talks about this) that I find myself forming judgements about him, even while I am identifying with him!!!


Richard Bach wrote:

"We teach best what we most need to learn."



I have found both validation for my own views about things today, as well as humbling messages that I have been ignoring.


It really is all about balance, and I need more of that.

It's hard for me to realize sometimes that hoping for the best, or believing that a specific situation will work out OK, does not mean that I must ignore reality.

But focusing on what's wrong, especially if there is little I can actually do about it, on any large scale, doesn't help ME, or anyone else affected by the same dilemma or situation.

It's like flailing around in the water, when I should just listen to my instincts, and realize that treading water is a natural ability. If I am going to drown, struggling will only hasten that process.

It's no great breakthrough; it's just a small step; and I know that I will backslide when I get wrapped up in fear.

As hard as it is to always accept this, everything should be, and IS, a learning experience, and pain is just part of healing.

So, I appreciate EVEN the conflict, and the attacks, because it forced me to move in directions that led to a little bit of insight, both about myself, and about you all here, and the rest of the world.

That doesn't mean that, rather than for someone to attack me here because I am/was afraid, a different approach could have brought about this minor change of heart in a much gentler way.

And it doesn't mean that I must abandon strongly held beliefs, or adopt a pollyanna attitude.

It doesn't even mean that I (or anyone) should never feel righteous indignation over injustice or unfairness.

It does mean that I need to stop giving my power over to my own fear, or to people who would goad me into anger, or to situations that I have little, if any, control over.

Everything happens for a reason. We are all imperfect, but we are all doing "the best we can at the moment", even if it's wrong.

The effort is the point.









Loneliness

"Why are so many so lonely? Is technology the problem or the answer?"




"Rejection is a primal ingrained fear/threat."








Radical Honesty



"First, extend the invitation to other people. Tell them that you want them to be radically honest with you; that you realize that maybe you get defensive, or that you don't handle constructive criticism the right way, or admit that you haven't asked, or properly listened.

But let people vent. There's a lot of people that are doing the same thing; they're keeping it stored up."



"Even more important....is to start being radically honest with yourself. That is probably the biggest challenge. When we become radically honest with ourselves, it opens up a whole new world, because we can start pulling the weeds of all the areas that we've been in denial about, and we can start welcoming other people's constructive criticism and feedback about us, and we can start growing and evolving as spiritual beings."












Stop Trying to Fix Yourself









Denial - The New Spiritual Path




on the other hand......




The suffering of others












Your glasses are on YOUR head!
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4314
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 - 4:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Usually, the "daily horoscopes" I get in email each day, are way too general, and often completely off the mark.

It is ironic as all get out what they said for Tuesday (yesterday). (I'm just now getting around to reading them, and I almost deleted them without reading them.)


One says:


Denial or control is no longer an option and you are ready to experience a breakthrough. Your suffering, fear, or emotional loss is/was valid, incredible and deserves to be acknowledged and expressed in order to heal or transform the sacrifice.



another says:


Telling you to lighten up would be easy -- unfortunately, at the moment, you won't be able to pull that off. So rather than pretending that the current state of affairs isn't bothering you, do just the opposite. Wallow in the unfairness of it all. Then get up tomorrow and start over.




and.....


You're ready to take on the entire world if need be -- so the powers that be don't stand a chance. Still, if you don't absolutely have to rock the boat....



and another....


You may be hurt if someone behaves insensitively toward you today, but it's difficult for you to express how you feel. You want others to be aware enough that they notice what they've done and you could become angry if apologies aren't forthcoming. Keeping your emotions to yourself will only make matters worse. Sulking is not a wise course of action. Overcome your moodiness by saying what's on your mind and then be ready to let it go.




and one for tomorrow (today) says:

Although your intentions may be straightforward, your behavior doesn't necessarily demonstrate your true feelings today. You could be moodier than you let on, for the hypersensitive Cancer Moon can give you a lot to worry about. But now, you realize that others tire quickly when you express your concerns, so you may consciously choose to keep any negativity to yourself. Remember, even suppressed feelings can impact your day, so find a way to share your uncertainty without blaming anyone else.



I cannot remember when one of these horoscopes has been so right on the money with what is happening in my life; not to mention for this many from different sources to be so accurate.




*****sigh******



I'm really spent, but relieved and amazed at events of the day, and that's enough for me right now. I think I can sleep now!
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Buddie
Senior Member
Username: buddie

Post Number: 2771
Registered: 3-2008
Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 - 4:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

SW.. I will check out your links tonight
but just wanted to comment on your own
words above..I so agree that 'balance'
is very important and imo a bigger struggle
than it sounds..I love things like when
'serendipity' happens..I see these
experiences as little pokes..maybe even
Hugs..this life of ours is both a
celebration and a veil of tears..I need
balance to feel the energy that flows
and I very much want this re-connecting
in my life.. Eeekkk I hope I don't sound
all syrupy thats not my intent..
anyway I'm sure I'll relate to these links
as I have with others you have posted :-)
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4316
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 - 5:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Thank you for your words, buddie. I hope you enjoy the videos when you have time to watch.

You said:


"I love things like when
'serendipity' happens..I see these
experiences as little pokes..maybe even
Hugs..this life of ours is both a
celebration and a veil of tears.."



WELL said, buddie, and no, you don't sound syrupy to ME! You sound both honest and compassionate, as well as wise.

G'nite!
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Roxie
Member
Username: roxanne

Post Number: 92
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 - 7:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

SW:

I'm so glad to see you back. I've spent many an hour reading your past posts. Your experiences are so similar to mine. Whether you know it or not, I just wanted to tell you that by realizing that there is someone with similar experiences as helped me to, at least, know that I'm not alone in all this craziness.

I've enjoyed reading about your experiences and reading your links and wisdom.

Just wanted to let you know that I, for one, appreciate the effort and bravery you have put forth in laying bare your life. I also wanted you to know that you have touched my life in a strange way that says, "it's okay to question."

Again, I'm happy to see you back.
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bean
Senior Member
Username: tina

Post Number: 1095
Registered: 12-2001
Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 - 9:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Hi SW....guess there is no need to respond to your question from the Health Care thread.....Seems to me you have found the answer for your self!

As Roxie posted, I too appreciate the guts it takes to put your self on the line as you do. Turning anger and sorrow into a positive passion, isn't an easy walk, but YOU are so very capable. Keep it going!

Blessings.
Bean
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Graciesmom
Intermediate Member
Username: jmm

Post Number: 118
Registered: 1-2010
Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 - 10:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Second Wind, I love the videos. They are all so Christlike. Cool dude.
"To make ourselves unhappy is where all crime starts," Roger Ebert.
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4319
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2010 - 6:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Roxie, I have been around here on the board, but I have just not been over on the witness thread much. I have been preoccupied with the health care issue, and have been posting mostly on the "More health care reform" thread.

Thank you so much for taking the time to let me know that you have appreciated and been helped by the things I have revealed about my own experiences.

It was that way for me, when I first discovered stories that sounded so much like my own memories. Ironically, it was one of Whitley's Journal entries ("The Boy in the Box") that was the dam-buster for me, and that's how I ended up here. Then, there were others with similar stories posting on the witness thread, and, well, the rest is....HISTORY.

--------

bean, thank you, as well. Your post means a lot to me, too.

You said:

"Hi SW....guess there is no need to respond to your question from the Health Care thread.....Seems to me you have found the answer for your self!"


I'm not sure what you mean there. So much has transpired in the past couple of days on that thread, and I don't remember which question you are referring to! Would you remind me here, and go on and answer?


Thanks again, you guys, for the support you have offered. That, in itself, took just as much guts, IMO, as anything I have posted.



-------



Graciesmom, I am glad you enjoyed some of what "Vagabond Steve" had to say. I agree with you, he does sound somewhat "Christlike". He was a Christian, at one point in his life.

Just like the rest of us, I am sure he is far from perfect, but he touched me, and I found his videos at a time when I needed to hear what he was saying, even though it was not "new".










I have also been finding this guy to be very interesting and entertaining.

He is obviously extremely intelligent and articulate.

He is bipolar, and did a video to say so.

This one is food for thought, for sure:


Mental Disorders and Religious Beliefs
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4323
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2010 - 8:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I need to tell roxie, bean, buddie, and others who know who they are, that you are "my ordinary heroes", and I'd bet money that you would be the type of people who could be (and may have been) extraordinary heroes.


(I stole that from Native's new thread.)



Here's to me, and to you, my heroes.

Superman
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Roxie
Member
Username: roxanne

Post Number: 93
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Thursday, March 25, 2010 - 10:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Awww, thanks SW. Right back at ya'!
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4344
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Friday, March 26, 2010 - 4:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Ahhhh, the ups and downs.......


I find myself going back to previously learned lessons for refresher courses, over and over again.


I will always be striving for....

The Balance


After he had journeyed
And his feet were sore
And he was tired
He came upon an orange grove
And he rested
And he lay in the cool
And while he rested
He took to himself an orange and tasted it
And it was good
And he felt the earth to his spine
And he asked
And he saw the tree above him
And the stars
And the veins in the leaf
And the light
And the balance
And he saw the magnificent perfection
Whereon he thought of himself in balance
And he knew he was

Just open your eyes
And realize the way it's always been
Just open your mind
And you will find
The way it's always been
Just open your heart
And that's a start

And he thought of those he angered
For he was not a violent man
And he thought of those he hurt
For he was not a cruel man
And he thought of those he frightened
For he was not an evil man
And he understood.
He understood himself
Upon this he saw
That when he was of anger
Or knew hurt
Or felt fear
It was because he was not understanding
And he learned compassion
And with his eye of compassion
He saw his enemies
Like unto himself
And he learned love
Then, he was answered

Just open your eyes
And realize the way it's always been
Just open your mind
And you will find
The way it's always been
Just open your heart
And that's a start

"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4348
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Friday, March 26, 2010 - 6:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Well, well, well......


OK, it's my habit that when I am about to get offline and shut down the computer, the last thing I do is reload email and check anything new.

So, I was just now about to shut 'er down, and go take a nice hot bath in lavender-scented epsom salts, when I reloaded my email.

Here is one of my astrology thingies that I just now read:

Here is your Daily Tarot Card for Friday, March 26

The Two of Pentacles card suggests that my power today lies in balance. I strive for equality and choose not to indulge instant gratification at the expense of my purpose. I am responsible for my own decisions and take on only what I can handle based upon that which I value. I am empowered by choice, and my asset is negotiation.



I just don't know what's up with the daily horoscopes lately, but it's certainly coincidental, to say the least.

I WOULD post one of the other ones, but it would be WAY too much like gloating or something , so I won't!



OK, now, off to that bath!

ahhh!
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Paul
Advanced Member
Username: bingo

Post Number: 219
Registered: 8-2009
Posted on Friday, March 26, 2010 - 9:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

SW - right on! write on!
"There was a farmer had a dog..."
- Everybody ... sing along now ...
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ariez
Senior Member
Username: ariezx51

Post Number: 1223
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Friday, March 26, 2010 - 7:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

SW, Thanks. The Balance.. simple and potent.
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4354
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Friday, March 26, 2010 - 11:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Thanks, you two!
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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John_Doe420
Senior Member
Username: john_doe420

Post Number: 521
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Friday, March 26, 2010 - 11:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I have personally learned a great deal from some of my conflicts on this board, at the very least more temperance and patience...not to mention a greater understanding of how i put myself out there and how better to portray myself and my opinions without sounding like I am attacking....tends to bleed over into "real" life (although i consider this "real" life too)
Sonny: Do you think we were all created for a purpose? Id like to
think so. [looks at his hand] Denser alloy. My father gave it to
me. I think he wanted me to kill you.
-I Robot -2004
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ariez
Senior Member
Username: ariezx51

Post Number: 1225
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 12:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I agree JD, conversation on the Board can influence my/our social skills or behaviour in the outside world.
My vocabulary has increased.. words that go beyond 4 letters, heh.
Seriously, it's been an enlightening exercise in many ways.
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4356
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 1:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I agree, as well, but with a point that may seem contradictory to agreement.

I have always tended to be a "mediator", in my real life. I have always struggled in my real life to encourage people I cared about, to "play fair", and to realize that conflict is unavoidable, but it can either be constructive or destructive.

I have always preached (yes, I admit it) that any reasonable person can LEARN how to argue constructively, and that destructive arguing is just a form of bullying.

But then, I discovered internet message boards.

For quite a long time after I came here to the board, I either stayed away from conflicts (especially political ones), or I regularly tried to be the mediator, the voice of reason; the one to come into a thread and say, "please play fair and stop the personal attacks on others".

But over time, I found myself losing, at times, my ability to maintain that attitude.

I know that part of that is because of this:

I have laid my soul bare here on the board. I have revealed more about my life, and my vulnerabilities and attitudes, than I probably should have.

I say that primarily because it is my open attitude, and my revealing of my vulnerabilities, that makes a potential bully know just exactly how to bait me. Some are better at it that others.

But I am embarrassed to say that I HAVE allowed myself to get angry and to lose that balance, when someone baits or attacks me.


On the other hand, I, too, find myself mentally reflecting on interactions here on the board, when I am in real life conversations. I find that the memory of all the ugly conflicts on this board, tends to stay in my mind if I am in a potentially touchy conversation in real life.



Last week, I had an opportunity just like this, with my neighbor. She is young enough to be my daughter.

We have not spent a great deal of time together, but we have spent several evenings on her or my porch or driveway, sharing wine and music and conversation.

I called her and asked her if she would come over "for 15 minutes" to help me to roll up and put in storage, a very large area rug, that comes up in spring.

So, I offered her some wine for her help, and after we finished the chore, we sat down and began enjoying the wine and talking.

The conversation began to get "interesting" when she asked me a question.

She said,

"I have something I want to ask you about, and I know that you will know the answer. Do you think the US Government was responsible for John Lennon's death?"




I told her some of what I knew, and I gave her my copy of the first book I ever read on that topic, "Who Killed John Lennon, first published in the US in 1989.

(Interestingly, that book was my FIRST introduction to MKULTRA, but the actual reality of those atrocities did not really hit me at the time, regarding my own history.)

So, anyway, as conversations do, ours evolved, and she said she didn't know whether it was true about Lennon, or if it was "like the 911 conspiracy theories".

I knew enough not to put forth any of my strongest opinions about that issue, but I did tell her that 911 was allowed to happen.

At first, she almost got her back up (she served in the Military, but not in wartime).

After I cited a couple of known facts, and pointed out that I could show her the truth of this, from actual government documents available online, she reluctantly and GRACEFULLY said (paraphrasing, but almost verbatim):

"I guess I am just not READY to know about that. I just am not ready to face these issues about our government. I am more open to it than I once was, simply because there are too many things about GWB that I cannot deny. But I am just not ready to immerse myself in what may very well be true."


So, my point is, as we were talking, I kept thinking about the hateful and dismissive conflicts that take place here on the board, where sometimes, people simply REFUSE to face reality, or grant someone a difference of opinion.

Remembering that ugliness, helped me to make even more effort to communicate without making her "wrong". And, to her credit, she came into the conversation with a strong sense of fair play, to start with.

We shared a bottle of wine and sat at my kitchen table for 3 HOURS, having these discussions. We parted at 10 p.m., with hugs, and expressions of having enjoyed the debate and the company and the wine.




It is too easy on a message board, to drop one's decorum, and to lose control of one's emotions.

This is why I usually compose my posts in notepad, before putting in into the post field on a thread.

But I have been guilty of several instances of reacting before I think it through. I have even been guilty of giving digs to people who have thrown digs at me. I hate when I stoop to that, because I hate when it's done to me!

As has been discussed many times, including lately, the anonymity of the internet makes it WAY too easy to become ......well, to lose control, or to become abusive, if that's is one's tendency.




As usual, I have written a long-winded post. I have to live up to my handle!!

Thanks for listening, and for all the comments!!!
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4367
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 2:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Hmmmmm.....


My father did actually impart some wisdom to me, but only in the past several years.

One of the things he told me one time was this:

Stop wasting your emotional energy, time and effort arguing with, or trying to reason with, people who will not be reasonable, and more importantly, who do NOT care about you!"




Still trying to learn that. I still tend to beat my head against brick walls, hoping for a miracle.



(Message edited by second_wind on March 27, 2010)
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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ariez
Senior Member
Username: ariezx51

Post Number: 1227
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 2:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I get where you're coming from Second Wind.

It ain't always easy, whether a message board or person to person.. even with the best of intents.

Funny thing about 911 and theories that make the government suspect in some way.
I've voiced some suspicions a couple of times in conversation, and I tanked both times. So I just let it be for now. A lot of people just don't want to even consider it. I'd rather not myself, but alas...
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4368
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 2:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I know. I was super surprised that she at least was "somewhat" open, and didn't either get mad, or call me a nut job. Even more, I was so impressed that she admitted that she didn't want to know, saying she wasn't ready.

She was fair, and honest, and didn't attack me because I put forth an idea that she was uncomfortable with.

She still has young kids, and it must be incredibly difficult to know what to do with some of this information, when you have kids.

Her kids are, by all indications, super sweet kids, even the ones who are teens!!!
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4369
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 2:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Don't.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4370
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 3:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I can't get to sleep.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4371
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 3:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Don't answer me.

If you believe in the power of magic
I can change your mind
And if you need to believe in someone
Turn and look behind

When we were living in a dream world
Clouds got in the way
We gave it up in a moment of madness
And threw it all away

Don't answer me
Don't break the silence
Don't let me win
Don't answer me, stay on your island
Don't let me in

Run away and hide from everyone
Can you change the things we've said and done?

If you believe in the power of magic
It's all a fantasy
So if you need to believe in someone
Just pretend it's me


It ain't enough that we meet as strangers
I can't set you free
So will you turn your back forever on
what you mean to me?

Don't answer me
Don't break the silence
Don't let me win
Don't answer me, stay on your island
Don't let me in

Run away and hide from everyone
Can you change the things we've said and done?
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4372
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 3:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Let's talk about me!









Gotta have a little comic relief tinged with truth.



Just free associating, cannot sleep.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4373
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 4:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post





God?
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4374
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 4:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Message from the universe keep coming.

This is just so "fascinatingly strange" about these daily horoscopes.

Maybe it's a conspiracy, and the people who write all these things, are reading my posts, and sending me special horoscopes?



Truly, I am only kidding. Believe it or not, I do know the difference between "serendipity" and "meaningful coincidence", and manipulation!



Here is your Daily Tarot Card for Saturday, March 27

"The Knight of Chalices card suggests that my power today lies in passion. Pursuing and expressing my hearts desire honors my love, passion, and beauty and is worth waiting, courting or crusading for. What I lack in external means, qualification or ability, I make up for with a true and dedicated heart. I am not a victim therefore I do not need to be rescued. I am empowered by patience or self-worth and my gift is emotional availability and devotion."

"In the end, only kindness matters."
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John_Doe420
Senior Member
Username: john_doe420

Post Number: 522
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 5:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I always say I must have been a defense attorney in a previous life....meaning, I lend an ear to even the most outlandish of things and seriously consider them as if they were true, or at least give the person the benefit of the doubt from the get-go, rather than having the mindset that they must "prove" something to me first for me to take them seriously....


I have always enjoyed my discussions around here, even when they are debates, and even in the midst of arguments, even heated ones, to me there is still a kernel of merit to be had simply from the inherent nature of communicating with another human being....there have been times I have been "put in my place", and would readily admit it if so, and I think there are times I have made some pretty good points myself in the face of debate on this or that issue....overall I think I hold my own pretty well most of the time....although I suppose there are times I could possibly be accused of attempting to enter into EVERY discussion even if I have limited, or no, knowledge of the subject matter....

Ive always prided myself on the belief that I can understand and think about something pretty well even if i start off knowing little or nothing originally...so this makes me "stick my nose in" on subjects that maybe I should just stay out of half the time....but hey, i love to communicate, toss ideas around, that sort of thing....after all there are very few subjects I have literally never thought of, and at length, so i think what i have to offer is at least of SOME merit, even if im an idiot.

Take the UFO subject....I'm no (conscious) abductee, have no clear memories of contact, or anything of the sort...a lot of high strangeness maybe....subtle things....but i still go round and round in discussions about the subject (and related)....wrong of me? I have been told more than once around here (not naming names) that if I am not an abductee/contactee than I should butt out basically....

i wonder.

ive learned a lot from this board, i never realized just how complex the subject of UFOs/Aliens/Mind Control/etc really was till I came here....oh the bliss of ignorance haha...but really, neither did I understand the complex nature of message boards/personalities/agendas either....

it's been fun though...mostly.
Sonny: Do you think we were all created for a purpose? Id like to
think so. [looks at his hand] Denser alloy. My father gave it to
me. I think he wanted me to kill you.
-I Robot -2004
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4377
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 5:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Vital Signs


From the album, Grace Under Pressure

Unstable condition
A symptom of life
In mental and environmental change
Atmospheric disturbance
The feverish flux
Of human interface and interchange

The impulse is pure
Sometimes our circuits get shorted
By external interference
Signals get crossed
And the balance distorted
By internal incoherence

A tired mind become a shape-shifter
Everybody need a mood lifter
Everybody need reverse polarity

Everybody got mixed feelings
About the function and the form
Everybody got to deviate from the norm


An ounce of perception
A pound of obscure
Process information at half speed
Pause, rewind, replay
Warm memory chip
Random sample, hold the one you need

Leave out the fiction
The fact is, this friction
Will only be worn by persistence
Leave out conditions
Courageous convictions
Will drag the dream into existence


A tired mind become a shape-shifter
Everybody need a soft filter
Everybody need reverse polarity
Everybody got mixed feelings
About the function and the form
Everybody got to elevate from the norm...

"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4378
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 5:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

fortie, you know that I still shake my head over you, after all this time!!

I still wonder if you aren't my lost offspring! Or "soul twin", or some such.

You still amaze me.

Sorry....don't mean to embarrass you!

You just keep on "butting in" all you want. I think that most here have come to value your input. I know I have, almost from day one.

I think you and I have only had one "near miss" in terms of "getting along", and it was quickly resolved, wasn't it?

Love you man!

I wish you WERE my son!


OK, now I am even embarrassing myself!


But, GD it, I mean it.

You, my friend, are an excellent teacher, by EXAMPLE!
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4382
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 5:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Here's to sad anniversaries, and hard lessons about complicated and less-than-perfect relationships.

Mother!


Mama, don't go!

Daddy, come home!


"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4383
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 5:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Oh, my goodness, now see what you've done, JD?

()


Think about your Momma as you watch this.....


I Dreamed Last Night....
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4384
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 6:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Lord have mercy.....


What would we do without music?




PERFECT PERFORMANCE of a Moody Blues song, performed unplugged by Justin Hayward of the Moody Blues.



Voices in the Sky
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4385
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 6:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I just discovered the concert above, from "An Audience with Justin Hayward" that was released in 2004.

However, it is obviously not available to purchase on DVD any longer.


I found the audio stream on BBC....and of course, thank goodness, the selected songs on YouTube.


I surely would like to have the dvd.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Roxie
Member
Username: roxanne

Post Number: 94
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 8:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Good grief, SW, are you reading my mind?

I posted a couple of weeks or so ago about your long-ago post about "I Know You're Out There Somewhere" and just prior to that and since I've listened to nothing but The Moody Blues.

After some internet searching I found that they had just performed in Atlanta (my area) and in the Carolinas.

Wish I could have afforded tickets. Well, maybe next year.

Geez, I feel like a Moody "groupie".
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4391
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 9:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Roxie, I did read your posts about the Moodies in the witness thread. I just wasn't up to responding, for a number of reasons.

The Moodies are in my top 10, maybe even top 5, favorites. I have all 7 of the first 7 albumbs on vinyl, and several on cassette tapes, and 3 on CD. Yes, I still listen to both my LPs and my cassettes!

I feel so lucky to have seen them here in my town in 1993. They were touring and doing many performances with local symphony orchestras.

They did not even have our town on their tour schedule, but our local symphony went on a recruiting campaign, and got them to add us to their tour.

It was truly one of the highlights of my life, and you know what? It was the second to last concert I ever saw. I have only been to one other after that, and it was to see Big & Rich in Houston.


I miss the days............
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Roxie
Member
Username: roxanne

Post Number: 95
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 11:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I envy you SW!

Until just a few weeks ago I had no idea they were even still together, much less, touring.

I must say, I was pleasantly surprised to see (at least from what I gleaned from the internet) that they are not just another used-up, drugged-out, hippie has-beens.
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Mark
Senior Member
Username: mark

Post Number: 2493
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 2:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Once upon a time,
Once when you were mine
I remember skies
Reflected in your eyes...
I wonder where you are
I wonder if you think about it
Once upon a time in your wildest dreams

Once the world was new
Our bodies felt the morning dew that greets the brand-new day
We couldn't tear ourselves away
I wonder if you care, I wonder if you still remember
Once upon a time in your wildest dreams

And when the music plays
And when the words are touched with sorrow
When the music plays - I hear the sound
I had to follow...
once upon a time

Once beneath the stars
The universe was ours
Love was all we knew and all I knew was you
I wonder if you know
I wonder if you think about it
Once upon a time in your wildest dreams
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Roxie
Member
Username: roxanne

Post Number: 96
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 4:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Mark:

Love that song, too.

Guess ya'll can just call me "Moopie" (That's a Moody Groupie).
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4399
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Sunday, March 28, 2010 - 3:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

The Moodies are truly one of the hardest working bands in the history of rock!




Oh, Mark! It is so difficult to try to choose a favorite, or even favorites, of their songs! But "I Know You're Out There Somewhere" and "Your Wildest Dreams" have got to be up there in the top....ten?


The Moodies have always been a source of "lessons" for me, and still are today.


That is, at least for me, one of the primary reasons that music is so important to me, and has been since I was just a little bitty kid!

Music can be a perfect example of "we teach best what we most need to learn".

Music can reach us on every single level of human existence; physical, mental, intellectual, emotional, psychological, spiritual, sexual....!


Music has always been a method of communication for me, as well. As you all know, who have read my posts over time, practically EVERYTHING reminds me of a song! And there is rarely a situation or an emotion, or a dilemma, or an experience, that cannot be perfectly expressed by a song or songs.

Still, music can be terribly bittersweet! But that's ok. That's part of it!


The "Blue Jays" album, (Justin Hayward and John Lodge of the Moodies", which came out after the Moodies "Seventh Sojourn" album, while the Moodies were on haitus, is one of my favorites as well. The song I poste above, "I Dreamed Last Night", is from that album, as well.

This video of one of the songs from that album, is really well done, and illustrates the words and emotions of the song SO well, IMO.


Saved by the Music


When you're swallowing all your pride
Do you need somewhere
A place to hide?
A smile from your face
Where the light comes shining through
All its strength, it came from you

It's lost now all that age before I knew you
Is it that forever is hard to find?
You made me recognize what I'd been leaving far behind
Is it closing in on you like it was on me?
This time I'm saved by the music
Saved by the song we can sing
This time I'm saved by the music
Saved by the song that you bring

When you're following all life's lies
And find its meaning
The truth still hides
Don't cover your face
Let the warmth come flowing through
Welcome dawn, new morning dew

This time I'm saved by the music
Saved by the song we can sing
This time I'm saved by the music
Saved by the song that you bring

When you're swallowing all life's lies...

This time we're saved by the music
Saved by the song we can sing
This time we're saved by the music
Saved by the song that you bring
This time we're saved







I REALLY need to learn how to create music videos for youtube! I think it would be so much fun, even if lots of work.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4400
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Sunday, March 28, 2010 - 3:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Roxie, I forgot to say I LOVE your expression, MOOPIE! That's me, too!!!
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Roxie
Member
Username: roxanne

Post Number: 97
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Sunday, March 28, 2010 - 7:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Moopies, UNITE!!!!!!
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Buddie
Senior Member
Username: buddie

Post Number: 2786
Registered: 3-2008
Posted on Sunday, March 28, 2010 - 10:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Morning..
Interesting conversations..speaking of dreams :-)


Joan Baez

Joe Hill Lyrics :
I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night,
alive as you and me.
Says I "But Joe, you're ten years dead"
"I never died" said he,
"I never died" said he.

"The Copper Bosses killed you Joe,
they shot you Joe" says I.
"Takes more than guns to kill a man"
Says Joe "I didn't die"
Says Joe "I didn't die"

"In Salt Lake City, Joe," says I,
Him standing by my bed,
"They framed you on a murder charge,"
Says Joe, "But I ain't dead,"
Says Joe, "But I ain't dead."

And standing there as big as life
and smiling with his eyes.
Says Joe "What they can never kill
went on to organize,
went on to organize"

From San Diego up to Maine,
in every mine and mill,
Where working men defend their rights,
it's there you'll find Joe Hill,
it's there you'll find Joe Hill!

I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night,
alive as you and me.
Says I "But Joe, you're ten years dead"
"I never died" said he,
"I never died" said he.
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4409
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2010 - 4:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

That is one of my favorite performances from Woodstock, and one of my fave Joan songs!

It would have been a very appropriate song to have posted over on the "Lucifer Effect" thread, too!
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4410
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2010 - 4:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I am undergoing a trial by fire, in my "real life", that has nothing to do with MY lack of health care, but of what is going on with someone I know.

It doesn't seem appropriate to refer to her as a "friend", because she is actually a friend of my sister's, and my only contact with her has been through my sister. I have only actually spent time with her on six occasions, over as many years, and it was only as a result of visits with my sister.

And yet, it doesn't seem correct to refer to her only as an acquaintance, because I know enough about her to feel very strongly about and for her.

I posted about her on the "Prayers Needed" thread.

Everything I believe, on the spiritual, ethical, and even on the practical and personal, levels, is being put to the test in this situation.

I would appreciate any prayers that might be offered for me in dealing with this situation, and knowing what the right decision is, that will serve "the highest good" off everyone involved.

Are we our brothers' keepers?


"After Cain had murdered his brother Abel, God asked him where his brother was. Cain answered, “I know not; am I my brother's keeper?”


Cain's words have come to symbolize people's unwillingness to accept responsibility for the welfare of their fellows — their “brothers” in the extended sense of the term. The tradition of Judaism and Christianity is that people do have this responsibility."





It is an extremely complicated situation, on all sides. And frankly, I don't know if I have what it takes, emotionally and physically, to live up to my own beliefs in this situation.



"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4412
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2010 - 6:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Part of the problem is that I am only getting information about this "friend/acquaintance" and her circumstances, second hand from my sister, who is supposedly getting HER information from the "friend/acquaintance"'s family.

So, I don't have any of the facts for myself, and it appears that it may be difficult, if not impossible, at least, for quite a while, for me to actually be able to speak directly to the "friend".

From what I am being told by my sister, it sounds like the "friend" is being SET UP, BIG TIME, for financial (to say nothing of physical and emotional) exploitation by her family, and perhaps, even with the HELP and active participation of my sister. It also appears that they (the family) may be in the well-choreographed process of having this "friend" declared incompetent.

But the story being told to me by my sister, regarding what is going on with this "friend" and her family, while she is in the hospital in NO condition to speak for or defend herself, well, it stinks to high heaven.

So, at this point, I have no way to know if my sister is even giving me actual facts (about the "friend"'s circumstances), or even facts as they are being presented to her by the "friend"'s family....OR, if it is just YET ANOTHER manipulation by my "controller/handler" sister, designed to trigger me in all the areas where I am most vulnerable.




If any of you have read any of my posts about my family, you know that I have serious doubts about my sister, her "control" over my life, and plenty of concrete reasons to doubt her integrity.


I have been so upset about this situation, for about a month or more, and especially over this past week, after the "friend" went into the hospital, I ended up getting quite ill with a relapse of my own illness.

I have spent the past two days in bed, running fever, quite ill. This is primarily a response to the stress I have felt over the situation with this "friend", although there have been some other factors, as well.

My sister, as well as the two other surviving members of my family, are all WELL AWARE of the effect that intense stress has on my illness.

I tried to stay detached from this situation when it first began developing, with the serious, life-threatening medical diagnosis given to the "friend".

I have reached a point with my own illness, that I am struggling to continue caring for myself, and my own home, property, financial issues, and family dramas.

Because of that, I tried so hard to stay detached from what was happening to this "friend".

But, not only because of my basic NATURE, but also because of the SPECIFICS of this "friend's" situation, which includes her specific medical diagnosis, as well as some other "pre-esisiting" and complicating "conditions", and the similarities of these things to what I went through with MY MOTHER.....

.......and my sister's insistence of telling me about what is happening with the "friend".....

....I am......where I am, right here, right now.




Can anyone spell "G-A-S-L-I-G-H-T"????
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Buddie
Senior Member
Username: buddie

Post Number: 2791
Registered: 3-2008
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2010 - 6:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I can't help but worry about in
this situation..I hope you feel
no guilt if your not the one to
take up the 'cause' once this
friend leaves the hospital..
you can always phone her..
Perhaps tomorrow you will see
this from a different perspective
at least thats what I'm hoping
for you..
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4414
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2010 - 6:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

buddie, bless your sweet heart!

I wish I could believe that "tomorrow" will make this all "ok".

This has been developing for several weeks.

That I feel a heavy responsibility, coupled with a heavy guilt/fear that I don't have what it takes......that is reality.

Not only does it bring up deep hurts over my mother's death, and the horrific behavior of my sister during that time, but it also is a blatant reminder that, unless I pay attention, both to this "friend"'s situation, and to my OWN, situation, I could easily end up in a situation like this "friend" is in now.

I appreciate your wishes, but regardless of the whole and accurate truth of this sad situation, which I may never know, tomorrow will not change what has just taken place here.

Even if a whole new "twist" or "spin" ends up being put on this situation by my sister in the coming days, the damage is done, in more ways than one.




Please say a prayer for this "friend", and for me, and all concerned.

I can't "turn this off", even if I wanted to.







My Brother's Keeper, Part 1



I have only watched part 1, and part of part 2, and I think my head is going to explode.



“‘The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. What one trusts to be truths turn into compromises. And what is called resignation is confirmed desperation.’”
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4415
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2010 - 7:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Good Lord!


I titled this thread "Lessons from unexpected places".

How in hell could I have known I would end up including this episode from "Bonanza", of all fricken "unexpected places". (There is no icon for that emotion!)


This episode, first of all, I do NOT remember ever having seen, even though I was a rabid "Bonanza" fan.

And not only does it touch on the specific situation I find myself in, on so many fronts, but it also even touches on the whole "heath care" debate, and my personal feelings about it!!

Again, there just is no icon for what I am feeling.



Yeah, I know it's a full moon, and I am a Cancer.....but this is fricken over the top.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4416
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2010 - 7:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I can barely believe that this episode of "Bonanza", of all the.......is even touching on the exploitation of financial situations.

It is focusing on those who would profit from the grief of others, who are already suffering.



Again, I think my head may explode at how the situation I am struggling with, and the concept of "my brother's keeper", has ended up leading me to this EPISODE OF "BONANZA", which is so on-point.....and I am only halfway through part 3.



It is even pointing out that, even those with considerable financial means, cannot always get the health care they need.




"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Sharon2
Senior Member
Username: sharon2468

Post Number: 3123
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2010 - 7:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Dear Second Wind, Doctors are very careful before they can diagnose someone as incompetent. It's not as easy as it was years ago. There is nothing you can do about your 'friend's situation.

Stop answering your phone. Tell your sister your phone has been on the fritz lately. If you can't tell her openly to stop talking about this 'friend', then you will have to stop listening.

Take care of yourself, FIRST!

Best Wishes, Sharon
"Thought is a Creative Force!"
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4417
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2010 - 7:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

From this "Bonanza" episode, and in real life, the price of exploitation goes up, as the greedy further realize the vulnerability of the suffering.



Exploitative Villain:

"Now his brother's going to find out the price of medicine has gone up in Nevada."



Sympathetic Observer, whose own father is dying:

"It's not right! All this waiting! All this suffering! No Doctor! No Medicine! What chance does he have?"



Adam:

"Because, out here, it's a jungle of animals, savages, where one tries to destroy the other."

(Message edited by second_wind on March 29, 2010)





(Message edited by second_wind on March 29, 2010)
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4418
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2010 - 8:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Sharon, thank you for responding. Please know how much I mean that!!!! And please, don't take what I am going to say, and decide that I am not worth further response!!!

But don't you see, that this is ALL ABOUT the decision of whether to care about "myself first", or to care about another, who has nobody to speak up for her?

SHE could be ME!


I cannot accept that there is nothing I can do about my "friend"'s situation!!!! There IS something I can do. There are a number of ways I could choose to respond (and actions I could take) in this situation.

The question for ME, is, what is the BEST THING to do for ALL concerned, but not FIRST for myself.





Plus, I will not lie about my phone being "on the fritz" just to avoid any responsibility here!

(I have told my sister that I will not be discussing this situation with her any further. There is a whole other "story" there, because this whole situation has, as I mentioned earlier, triggered some old "issues" over when my Mom died. Predictably, my sister and I ended up in a fight on the phone tonight, and she hung up on me, because she could not and will not be HONEST about some of those old issues.)





Look, I realize that, from the perspective of anyone reading my posts, who have limited information (I am revealing what I feel I can), that this all may seem overly melodramatic.

And it is melodramatic.

That is why this whole "discovery" of the "Bonanza" episode is so mind boggling!!!

I hope that any who read what I am posting, will actually TRY to take what I have said, and then actually watch the entire "Bonanza" episode.

There is a reason.

Some coincidences cannot be ignored, and there can indeed be great meaning to life's "lessons from unexpected places".

It's bizarre that in this episode of "Bonanza", there is even a "daughter" with a dying parent, who would do anything to save, or at least care for, her parent.

And SHE ends up being the observer of another vulnerable, injured and innocent person, who is at risk of not only premature death, but of financial exploitation by greedy, opportunistic people.

The only problem is, that at this point, I can see no parallel to my sister, or to my "friend"'s family, in these "Bonanza" characters, other than the villains!


Please watch this episode, and consider it relative to the situation I am struggling with.

How interesting, that the dying man in this episode, ends up showing probably THE MOST incredible courage.


Even the name, "Bonanza" is not without meaning, in this whole context!!!!




In TV shows, "all's well that ends well", huh?



"I hope God keeps close tonight."
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4421
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2010 - 9:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Cleaning up my Brother's crap



Do I have what it takes to do the right thing, even though this situation is full of "crap", including quite a bit of "crap" produced by the "friend" I am worried about?

Let's just say, she has "issues" that most people wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole; and that was BEFORE she was diagnosed with a probably-fatal illness.




I am, at this point, hanging on to the hope that she will make it out of the hospital alive, and that I will be able to contact her, and try to get some of the actual facts, and not just rely on "hearsay", or even manipulation, passed on to me from my sister.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4424
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2010 - 9:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

"There's nothing I can do!"
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Roxie
Member
Username: roxanne

Post Number: 98
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2010 - 12:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

SW:

Wow! Your sister is a real piece of work. She sounds so incredibly narssisistic and/or psychopathic. It does sound light "gaslighting". She also sounds like the "gatekeeper", the one through whom all info must pass.

Here's what I've learned from people like her. She knows what your situation is. She knows that you are limiting your contact with her. She must find a way to get you back. If she can't get you back with her "normal" tactics, she's going to find a way to appeal to your compassion, sympathy and basic humanity to keep you "in the loop". To keep you corresponding with her.

She has found someone (her friend) who is, coincidentally, in a similar predicament as you. Without you actually speaking to this friend, or this friend's relatives, you really have no way of knowing exactly what's going on. And, being that this "friend" is not your friend or family, the odds of you actually contacting this friend or family, or any of them giving you pertinent or accurate information is "nil".

Based on what you've posted, your sister may in fact be initiating some pre-emptive strike. I've noticed, in my experience, people like this actually "tell on themselves". But most "normal" people don't realize it until after the dust has settled.

In other words, she may be trying to "test" you to see what you would do if you were in the same situation. She may be wanting to figure out, ahead of time, what "her" options will be.

I have people in my life that lie about everything and sometimes, if it isn't a blatant lie, they will sprinkle the lie with just enough truths, to sound plausible.

It sounds as though she has accomplished at least part of what she set out to do, and that's is to "trigger" (like you said) you. As long as she can she can do that, it will keep you upset enough to divert your attention from the "real" situation, which may be to keep you in contact with her or to keep you "stressed" enough about your own situation, that you can't see what she's really doing.

Sorry for the long post, but I feel for you, my friend. I've been in a similar situation, for years, and have finally understood what's going on with these people in my life.

I hope my post hasn't stressed you any further. My hope is merely to give you a "possible" explanation of your sister's actions and, to at least, give you some "protective ammunition" against her.

Hope it helps.
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Roxie
Member
Username: roxanne

Post Number: 99
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2010 - 1:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Interesting too, how the universe reaches out to us in strange ways, like the Bonanza episode.

By the way, if you do figure out that your sister is playing mind games with you, whatever you do, DON'T let her know that you know.

I have learned to play "stupid to their tactics" and it has become so predictable these people will eventually trip themselves up.

Anyway, stay strong. I'm sending healing vibes to you and this friend.
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Sharon2
Senior Member
Username: sharon2468

Post Number: 3124
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2010 - 6:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Second Wind, I'm sorry you're all stressed out about your friend, but I don't know what the answer is.

Prayers and Best wishes!
"Thought is a Creative Force!"
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Mama Shine
Senior Member
Username: mama_shine

Post Number: 11435
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2010 - 6:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

SW,

I am a Cancer as well and don't we both
have moon in Scorpio. I am very sensitive
like you...I understand.

BTW, Dan Blocker "Hoss" is my cousin..such
a loss that he died so young.

I'm just feeling your pain and confusion and
offering my compassion and friendship.
I must create a system, or be enslaved by another man's. ~William Blake

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Buddie
Senior Member
Username: buddie

Post Number: 2792
Registered: 3-2008
Posted on Monday, March 29, 2010 - 7:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I know self-respect is a prerequisite
for you in how this all turns out and
I understand..But it seems your shown no
respect..not fearful respect..true respect..

Much Of All of it to You SW
in your choices ~~
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4429
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2010 - 1:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Roxie, you said:

It does sound light "gaslighting".


Well, I am relieved that you can see it for what it is, as do I. It would be far too easy for someone with no clue, to simply call me paranoid!


You said:

She also sounds like the "gatekeeper", the one through whom all info must pass.


Oh, what a perfect description of her "role", both her perception of it, and the reality of it!!!

It is obvious to me that you have paid close attention to what I have written, so you have a really clear understanding of the situation! You are a GOOD LISTENER!! Thank you for that!

You said:

Based on what you've posted, your sister may in fact be initiating some pre-emptive strike.

Well, I am not absolutely certain that I know exactly what you mean by "pre-emptive strike", but it does definitely seem that she is setting things up in certain ways, both where I am concerned, and where the "friend" is concerned.



I've noticed, in my experience, people like
this actually "tell on themselves". But most "normal" people don't realize it until after the dust has settled.



OH, you are so right on the money. In fact, IF the story she is giving me is actually true, the friend's sister actually HAS "told on herself", but making one specific accusation against the friend, which is not only probably NOT true, but is actually the primary piece of "evidence" that they are setting the friend up.

I hope that made sense.


You said:

In other words, she may be trying to "test" you to see what you would do if you were in the same situation. She may be wanting to figure
out, ahead of time, what "her" options will be."



Oh, I think you are right on the money there! She hopes to trigger me into SUCH emotional overload and anger, that I will "reveal my hand" in terms of my own plans for "when something happens to me".


I have people in my life that lie about everything and sometimes, if it isn't a blatant lie, they will sprinkle the lie with just enough
truths, to sound plausible.



Oh, that is EXACTLY correct!!!

It sounds as though she has accomplished at least part of what she set out to do, and that's is to "trigger" (like you said) you. As long as
she can she can do that, it will keep you upset enough to divert your attention from the "real" situation, which may be to keep you in contact with her or to keep you "stressed" enough about your own situation, that you can't see what she's really doing.


Oh, you truly DO get it, Roxie!

Now, I must correct a detail, however. We live far apart, and we only see each other once a year, normally. It has been this way since we both left home, she in the late 1960s and me in the early 1970s.

In fact, except for my Mother, it has been the pattern that "things" get arranged so that there has always been a significant physical distance between myself and my individual family members.

Only two times in my life, has the distance between us been MY choice, and I am really NOT too sure that it was really "my choice" in either of those instances; I think those "choices" were manipulated without me realizing it at the time. It is only in retrospect that I see some of these things......as you pointed out.

However, my sister has always been my primary "handler", even though from a distance.

Now, the contact during the year, by phone, is also a huge area for manipulation of me. For example, she has a consistent pattern of manipulating me by calling me EVERY SINGLE DAY for a period of anywhere from weeks, to a couple of months; then, she will suddenly not call for days, even more than a week.

And yet, if she calls after a week, and I don't answer or call her back after another try, she leaves messages about "being worried" about me, because I am not answering the phone. There was one time like that, where she later told me she "thought seriously about calling the police", because she "was worried".

Funny, during the weeks when she doesn't call or email, she doesn't worry!!


Also, as for "letting her know I am on to her", well, I don't know if she thinks I am really stupid, or still completely hypnotized. But I have woken up to her manipulations to the degree that I am almost ready to virtually CUT OFF communications with her.

The one and only sincere counselor I ever had, which was 4 years ago, told me that the best thing for me would be to completely cut off 99% of my contact with my remaining family members, because they all are abusive and manipulative.

He actually helped me to devise a game plan for doing that, so that any decision I make to cut off contact, cannot be twisted to make me look "unstable".

Abusers are very skilled at putting their victims into double-binds. Luckily, I am a pretty smart cookie, and think WELL ahead, and see the likely future manipulations!

Anyway......

NO, your post/input does NOT upset me. I really appreciate your responses, Roxie, because it is a relief, if you know what I mean, to know that someone else actually understands this kind of thing.

That does not mean that I would be hurt if your responses were shorter and less detailed, or if you didn't respond at all. I understand that we all respond to what we feel is important, and we do what we can.



-----------


Sharon, I know that you don't have any simple answers for me. Please don't think I am ungrateful for your responses.


--------

Mama, yes, you are correct about our signs!

Yes, I also do remember you posting about Dan Blocker being your cousin! So, of course, you are aware that he attended and played football at Sul Ross!!! Alpine is one of my favorite places!!!

Thank you for your support.


-------------


buddie, I understand what you said, and you are correct. It has always been part of the "objective" to control my perceptions about everything, including about myself......ESPECIALLY about myself. I can't even begin to explain to someone who hasn't experienced this kind of "control", how difficult it is to shake off the programming.


I do have a plan of action, though. I have a surprise for any in my family who think I am too stupid and "under their thumbs" to think and act for myself! I have a few "pre-emptive strikes" in my own arsenal!


-----------------


Before I forget again, I intended to mention that one of the other significant similarities in my situation and the "friend"'s, is that she rescues cats.

She borders on being a "collector", which is the primary difference between us in that respect. She has probably 15, where I only have 5, and mine are strictly indoors.

She has a pretty large house and property, and they have the run of the property, inside and out. She gets them spayed and neutered, shots, etc.

My sister made sure to tell me that "they found someone to take care of the cats". Yeah, and the way "they" would probably do that, is to start taking them to the pound.

My sister knows how I feel about that, and that that is one of my biggest fears - what would happen to my cats if something sudden happened to me?

I am making plans for things like that.

My mother was smart enough not to leave things so that my sister, or even her own brothers, would be making decisions for her in the end. She made plans a full 20 years prior to her death, for me to be her medical power of attorney and her caregiver.





As for the situation with the "friend", I have figured out a couple of things I can do, to insure that she is not exploited. I have a plan, AND a back-up plan!

----------




Every day, it's the same old thing; breathe, breathe, breathe, and lessons, lessons, and MORE lessons!

I'm tired tonight.



Thanks very much to all who have offered input, support, and prayers!
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4431
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2010 - 2:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Wow!



One of my horoscopes for Tuesday, which I am just now getting to.....

Pleasing anyone, whether they're a member of your family or a career associate, will be several times more challenging than you'd ever possibly imagined. Any attempts you make to 'fix' things could backfire. Why not go with the flow instead?
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4436
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2010 - 4:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

My Mother told me on March 15th, 2000, that she had lung cancer. She said they told her she had, at best, and even if she had treatment, 6 months.

During the next 2 weeks, my sister tried to control the decisions about Mom, by phone, long distance, despite the fact that Mom had designated me as her health care proxy and caregiver.

It was very upsetting to my Mom. It was also upsetting Mom because my sister would not step up to the plate, and actually come and help me to take care of her. At that point, I was also still working full time.

My sister kept trying to get Mom to consider going into a nursing home. She even tried to convince her to come to my sister's city, and go into a nursing home there!

Mom told her repeatedly that this was exactly what she did not want. She wanted to stay in her own home, for as long as possible, and to die at home, if possible.

She was so filled with anxiety and fear, on top of the inability to breathe from the cancer, and the tumors that had spread to her lymph glands in her upper chest, which were cutting off blood circulation and lymph drainage.

On the night of March 26, she asked me to take her to the ER, to see if they could do something to help her breathe.

She was admitted.

Towards the end of that week, the preparations were being made to release her to go home, and to bring in Hospice.

She put her foot down (big mistake) and told my sister she wanted her here NOW, to help me with her care.

I took Family Medical Leave.

Sister arrived on day Mom was to come home. She was going to bring Mom home, while I left the hospital to meet with Hospice, so they could set up medical bed and equipment at our trailer.

I had a wreck on the way home. A guy ran a red light and hit me. I was 40 mins. late to meet hospice. Back then, I had no cell phone.

Sister brought Mom home, and we couldn't even get mom comfortable in her room, before my sister proceeded to make a horrible scene.

I won't go into all the details of her histrionics and stunts, but here is the worst part:

I was going to take the first shower in 2 days, and finally get some sleep, and sister was going to take a "shift".

Among other stunts, sister began making fun of me with sarcastic digs, when I was trying to fill her in on all the instructions for breathing treatments and medications, and show her the forms we had to record all mom's treatment notes on for Hospice.

This resulted in upsetting Mom horribly.

I asked my sister to come into the kitchen, and I asked her, "Can't you just HELP US for a couple of hours?"

A fight ensued, and she grabbed me by my wrists, and began pushing me backwards, she opened the front door while still grasping my right wrist, digging her nails into me. She proceeded to push me out onto the deck, and then TRIED to push me OFF the deck. I was screaming at this point. It was POURING DOWN RAIN.

She is much taller and bigger than I am. At that time, I was down to skin and bone.

She made me bleed where her nails had been digging into my wrists. The next day, I had dark fingerprint bruises on both wrists. Too bad I was preoccupied with mom, and with getting sister OUT, that I didn't have the presence of mind to take pictures. Having been a battered wife previously, I should have known to do that.

By this time, my poor mom, hearing all this, has struggled to get up, and is frantic, coming down the hall crying, barely able to speak and breathe.

Sister managed to get somewhat of a grip. We attempted to get mom settled again, and sister begrudgingly and arrogantly listened to the medication instructions.

I took a shower, and tried to sleep. I could NOT sleep, though. But I tried to rest. Less than an hour later, sister is knocking on my door, saying she needed me to come give the breathing treatment, because she could not figure it out.

My poor mother......

She finally just told sister that if she could not step up to the plate and be an adult and help us, that she should go back home the next day.

That is exactly what she did.



Like all passive/agressives, if they don't want to do something, but get forced into the situation, then they will just screw it up, so that nobody will ever ask them to help again.

That is exactly what she did.

She then, STILL proceeded to hound mom on the phone, to the point that mom asked me to turn down the answering machine, and to erase any messages she left.

My mom even called my father (they divorced when I was 14), and asked him to intervene, to get sister to BUTT OUT, and stop adding stress onto an already unbearable situation for both mother and me. He did just that.

She finally stopped calling for about a week. During that week, my mom did a bunch of letter writing. Some of those letters got mailed, and some were left in an envelope, with instructions for me, for when she was gone.

One of those letters was a very intense letter of disappointment (to put it mildly) that she wrote to sister. However, she left instructions clipped to it, that she did NOT want it given to sister for at least 5 years, and that she did not care if sister NEVER saw it. She said I could keep it for sister to see "someday" in the future, or, I could throw it away.

A few days before mom died, my sister mailed me a letter, typewritten, in which she tried to SPIN the events, including turning her physical attack on me into "grabbing me by the shoulders), and tried to spin her behavior as her being some kind of hero, trying to get me outside, so mother would not get upset by my SCREAMING IN PAIN.

I called her when mom's death was imminent, so that she could "be there". Mom did not ask for this, she was beyond that at that point.

I did not even know that the letter from sister, was waiting in my mailbox, with days of other mail, and I did not get the mail until the day after mom died, and sister was gone back home.

At that point, I was hanging on by a thread.

And in all these 10 years since, I have never confronted sister about her letter to me, nor have I tried to confront her about that time, and her behavior. I know better. It just results in bullying.

Since the 10th anniversary of all these events is upon me, and also because of the triggering that has gone on this week with my sister, I pulled out the box of mom's stuff, and began looking through it. I do this a couple of times a year, but definitely at this time of year.

Now, I am so glad that I kept the letter that mom wrote to sister, as well as others she wrote, some to be sent, some not. They all clearly told of the horrific behavior of my sister during that time. She was much more specific in the letter to sister, though.

It is the only PROOF I actually have of her TRUE COLORS, other than the fact that my father knows what happened. But his knowledge would not help me much, now, or in the future. Besides, he is 82 years old.

There are all kinds of entries in my diary, and even here on the board, about my sister, and her behavior.

But the letters mom wrote are the best proof I have of my sister's pathology, if she were to ever try to twist the truth to portray ME as delusional.

My mom KNEW. She would never admit these things about sister, until she was literally on her death bed. Of course, her selecting me as her health care proxy stated pretty clearly who she saw as "responsible".

I also kept a letter from my father, which he sent not long after mom died, in which he stated that he knew that many in our extended family, and even himself, to some degree, had been very shocked and surprised that it had been ME who had turned out to be the responsible one.

Me, the "baby", the "under-achiever" (as compared to my money-motivated and ambitious sister).

He said, "we never really knew you would be the strong one, but your mother did".

He also expressed his regret that sister had caused us so much pain and additional trauma during mom's dying, and that he felt ashamed that my dying mom had been forced to ask him to intercede, in order to get sister to leave us alone.

That is also support and proof of her true nature, as well. But, it is not nearly as much proof, as mom's letter to sister.



Thank you, Mom. And thank you to myself, for being such a packrat, and knowing the value of saving things like that.

I am also glad I learned the value of DOCUMENT EVERYTHING. I learned that first, as a result of several job situations, as well as in other ways.



This thread is, and others on the board are, a "record" of events, to some degree, with copies saved in various places, both hard copies and computer files.

I just looked back at the dates on the hospice and hospital records, and my diaries. Today (the 30th of March) is the 10th anniversary of the day my mom, from the hospital bed, asked my sister to come out here to help me care for her.



Thanks for listening. This is the first time I have poured this story out to anyone in this detail.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4437
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2010 - 4:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

It is also interesting to just this second realize, that I got all the way through this horribly long and ugly story, without CRYING, or getting upset.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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John_Doe420
Senior Member
Username: john_doe420

Post Number: 538
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2010 - 5:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Hell, I couldn't read it without getting teary eyed myself. Especially when you mentioned March 26th, one day before the death of my mom. Especially when you mentioned how your mom "knew" you'd be the responsible one. My mother often treated me the same way, my older brother and sister would do nothing but squabble over mom, and I was always caught in the middle...mom knew she could tell me anything.

You have been brave SW....I can't believe how someone crashed into you like that in the car....that's totally nuts!

I want ya to know that the truth is, since my mother has passed especially, I have come to think of you as family....you remind me of my mother in many many ways that I wouldn't ever even go into around here lol...

Anyway, I can't believe you put up with your sister, I swear reading about how she grabbed you like that...pshhew...i so wanted to read you picked something up and smashed her head real good....but...i suppose that would not have been the right thing to do....still yet.

Your poor mother having to deal with a child behaving so selfishly...just completely ridiculous.
Sonny: Do you think we were all created for a purpose? Id like to
think so. [looks at his hand] Denser alloy. My father gave it to
me. I think he wanted me to kill you.
-I Robot -2004
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4438
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2010 - 6:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I hope that reading my post did not upset you more than you already are, JD, about your own "anniversary". Believe me, I remember WELL, what that first anniversary was like.

Thank you so much for responding, and for continuing to be such a good example of how someone who is WILLING and REASONABLE can change for the better!

And thank you for the sweet things you said about thinking of me as family. You have reminded me of my son, (all the things about him I love), and I care about the "you" that I have come to know, as if you were my son.

Regarding you saying you wished I had smacked my sister but good.....well, that's the thing. I am sure you know this. A bully will pick on someone who either cannot defend themselves, or will not.

I am totally non-violent. It would take a hell of a lot to cause me to be violent.

Plus, I learned, as both an abused kid/sibling, and a battered wife, that fighting back physically only results in escalation of the violence against me. Better to survive the moment, and then find a way OUT before the next time.

As for anniversaries......

Each one has gotten a little bit easier, but still, I realized tonight that I have simply NOT really dealt with all the emotions and trauma of that time.

And the story about the drama with sister is just one small part of the trauma of my mom's illness and death.

I don't know if I will ever be able to get all of it out.

The underlying theme in the entire horrible time, for both my mom, and myself, was ABANDONMENT accompanied by EMOTIONAL AND FINANCIAL MANIPULATION AND EXPLOITATION, by those (both family, and medical "professionals", and even Hospice) who supposedly have your best interests at heart. It also includes my then-employer.



My mom was no saint, as, of course, neither am I.

She was a raging alcoholic until 1977. She was sober from then on.

But there was a lot of abandonment by her when I was a kid and young adult, due to her alcoholism.

When she sobered up, I was, of course, a young adult by then, and she tried, the best she could, to make up for the past with me. In other words, once she got sober, she STEPPED UP TO THE PLATE.

She and I were the only ones who stood by each other.

Now, if I had continued in my own "substance abuse", she would NOT have stood by me, and probably, vice-versa.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4439
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2010 - 7:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I am trying to develop some guts with regards to either standing up to, or disassociating from, the rest of my family. I really would like to do this before I die.

I have already taken a stand with my son, which means I have no contact with him, and so don't get to be around my grand-daughter.

I also have pretty nearly completely disassociated from my father, except for the occasional short phone call or email, all very superficial. I experienced "the last straw" with him on our last two visits together.

I don't know how I will react when he passes. One thing I would bet, is that a bunch of surpressed memories will likely surface when he is gone.

My sister is the most difficult to cut off.

Yet, with the exception of my mother, one by one, all the members of my family have behaved in JUST THE SPECIFIC WAYS that would result in me finally withdrawing contact. Interesting how that works - Passive/agressive abandonment.



---------------


Toxic Family

These relationships affect not only one's self esteem but general sanity at times. These types of relationships are never healthy.

There is a school of thought that one's emotions can affect one's overall health. If you are emotionally disturbed you likely will manifest those feeling into "dis-ease" or another physical ailment. When your emotions start to affect you physically it is time to do something about the toxic people in your life.

Family relationships become toxic when power struggles occur, bullying as well as deceit and betrayal. Usually there is a clear lack of boundaries as well as unclear and unrealistic expectations.


Basically the only way to deal with toxic family members is to either create strong boundaries or cut them out completely. There really is no in- between.

Your toxic family member may try to guilt trip you, or may become nasty with you.

They will likely tell others you are crazy and make crazy accusations.

This is all very common and just reveals the toxic family member's character further.

Don't let them get you down as this how some people deal with life. Fortunately we all don't have to go through life living this way if we are able to recognize toxicity within our own relationships with others and correct it.

Some things that can help one over come toxic relationships are building supportive relationships with others as well as creating firm boundaries when it comes to the toxic family member.

If you choose to still engage with the person this will be very important. Your boundaries will help the other person realize you aren't available for their toxic behavior and you are not going to be a part of it.

For instance if your sister calls you to gossip about your mother you might choose to not engage and either change the subject or let your sister know you have other things to do.

It's usually easier to let your offender know up front what the boundaries are. Building self esteem is also another important step in overcoming toxic relationships.

When you feel strong and good about yourself your toxic family will not be able to touch you. Just be forewarned as this is likely going to drive them even crazier!

Learning and using listening skills as well as connecting with your own inner strength and passions will help you on this journey.

It's not always possible to cut out toxic family, but the way you deal with them can make all the difference in the world.

If you avoid family functions or dread the holidays you could simply start new traditions with people of your choosing or limit your interaction with the toxic family members. Only you will know for sure what path is for you. Counseling can also help one sort through toxic relationships and issues.

Do not allow your toxic family to rule your life any further or effect your physical and emotional well being. Start taking steps today to ensure you will not have to deal with this type of damaging behavior in the future.






---------------



Toxic Relationships Can Effect Your Health


Not all relationships are toxic; there are those individuals that are loving and nourishing, looking forward to a healthy discourse in their communication.

There are many that do not make rash judgments, encouraging freedom of thought instead, happy to share their thoughts while listening to another's thoughts.

The non-toxic individuals usually look forward to healthy debate while embracing the difference of opinion in others. They can handle disagreements maturely and fairly.



Control and Fear Can Kill

Toxic individuals are insecure, controlling, demanding, selfish and self-centered.

They can drain the life force from the one they profess to care for.

Nothing less then open honest respect and acceptance should be tolerated.





---------------------

Here's why it's pointless to argue with toxic people:

There's an expression out there that can work wonders in your relationships with people when arguments and disagreements arise; let's agree to disagree.

Unfortunately, there are some people who absolutely MUST win each and every confrontation and will often stoop to very toxic means to achieve their precious victory.

Not only is trying to argue with a toxic person very emotionally straining, it's also quite fruitless!

Before I go any further, I want to make it clear what I mean by "Toxic Person". There's a big difference between someone who's just having a bad day, versus someone else who demonstrates chronic toxic behavior.



So here are some red-flags to consider in the meantime that are pertinent to this particular article;

1) Mean-Spiritedness

2) Controlling, Dominating, Manipulative, and Demeaning behavior (trust your intuition on this one!)

3) Passive/Covert-Aggressive behavior

4) Hyper-Defensive behavior

5) Evasive and Diverting behavior

6) Statements that abusively try to "define" you


The above red flags can be consciously and/or unconsciously demonstrated, and all are very effective means that toxic people regularly use to win an argument. And if that isn't bad enough,


TOXIC PEOPLE SPEND THEIR ENTIRE LIVES PERFECTING THEIR ARGUING SKILLS! If you're a healthy minded and mature individual, you're absolutely wasting your time actively arguing with a toxic person because there's simply no end to the toxic behavior they'd demonstrate to achieve their precious victory.

Unfortunately, there are situations where you can't always or safely ask a person to agree to disagree with you.

For example; trying this with your boss could cost you your job.

Trying this with a physically abusive partner could land you in the hospital, or worse!

However, just because someone is your boss or partner, that alone doesn't make it okay for them to abuse you during an argument or at any other time.

If such a relationship becomes that toxic, then I think it's best to end the relationship or job as soon as possible! It won't be easy, but I think it's absolutely necessary!

If you're lucky, you might be successful in persuading a toxic person to curb their toxicity so that you can engage in a reasonable conversation with them.

Granted, this generally means that you're in a position of power over them and they're only curbing their toxicity because they want or need something from you that they fear losing BECAUSE of their toxicity.



So the next time you find yourself in an argument or disagreement with someone, make sure you try assessing their general character before it gets too deep.

I assure you that a toxic person has already sized you up!




-----------




Abusive communication

Many sociopaths and psychopaths demonstrate their fair share of narcissistic personality disorder traits.

That said, as they're defining other people with their "You should..." and "You need..." statements, they're doing so in a sense that self-defines their superior existence over those they're defining.

This is a perfect example of toxic and dysfunctional behavior that regularly creates disharmony in other people's lives.

If you're able to sense this toxic behavior of someone, then I feel it's important to be very careful with your involvement or interactions with such a person.




One very important point that must be understood about some who's trying to define you is that they're acting as if they're able to look into your mind, your feelings, and your soul and see for themselves exactly what's going on inside you.


Here are some examples of abusively defining statements:

"You're clueless!"

"You're too emotional!"

"You're out of control!"

"You're irrational!"

"You're too thin-skinned!"

"You're making it up!"

"You're trying to start a fight!"

"You're confused!"

"You're never happy!"

"You enjoy arguing!"

"You read too much!"

"You need to man up!"

"You obsess over everything!"

"You've got your head up your arse!"

"You need to get over it!"

"You never know how to take a joke!"



This list can go on and on, but hopefully it demonstrates well enough how some people abusively define you.

But I need to stress the importance of understanding that just because someone might say some of these things to you, doesn't automatically mean that they're an Abuser.

If you were to explain to them how these phrases make you feel and they responded unsympathetically or dismissively to your feelings, THEN it's quite likely that they're an Abuser.




-----------



Toxic People and How Not to Become One

Toxic people are bad news. They can be annoying, obnoxious, irritating and depressing. They can dampen your spirits. They can ruin your reputation. They can get you fired from your job. They can destroy your relationships with spouses, lovers, relatives and friends. They can erode your self esteem.

They can create anxiety. They can drive you to bankruptcy. They can make your life miserable.

How do you recognize toxic people?


The Psychopath: The Psychopath lacks empathy and sympathy, is completely devoid of a conscience, and derives pleasure from others' suffering.

The Sociopath: The Sociopath completely disregards the rights and feelings of others, and is incapable of experiencing remorse, shame or guilt.

The Pathological Liar: The Pathological Liar lacks the capacity to tell the truth-in fact, the pathological lacks the ability to even recognize the truth.

The Putdown Artist: The Putdown Artist is constantly making others the butt of jokes in an attempt to deflect attention away from their own shortcomings.

The Instigator: The Instigator lives to create discord, hostility and strife. The Instigator actually nurtures confrontation.

The Bully: The Bully thrives on dominating and humiliating those they perceive as weaker than them.

The Master Manipulator: The Master Manipulator uses cunning, trickery and subterfuge to control victims.

The Blackmailer: The Blackmailer works hard to gain your trust so they can learn your secrets and weaknesses and exploit them when you cross them.





Never, ever express an opinion, reveal a weakness or discuss other people with toxic people. When toxic people ask you personal questions, politely decline to answer.


How to Avoid Becoming A Toxic Person

Avoid engaging in the behaviors toxic people exhibit.

If you find yourself unconsciously engaging in such behaviors and you are unable to stop doing so on your own, invest in some relevant self-help books and/or seek the assistance of a friend. If all else fails, seek professional help from a psychologist or social worker.



Tips for Ridding Your Life of Toxic People

Make your own best interests a priority when making relationship decisions.

Evaluate the viability of your relationships.

Make responsible relationship choices

Be realistic about relationship expectations.

Break free from emotional terrorists.

Actively manage your relationships.

Only repair relationships that are worth the effort.




--------


Toxic Thoughts and Toxic Relationships


There was a time in my life when I got sick at least once a month with a cold, sore throats, and/or the flu. I kid you not, I was constantly fighting something.

As I look back now, I can point to the fact that I was experiencing toxic thoughts. I was depressed, angry, bitter, and downright pathetic.

What caused all this?

I could blame my emotions on the person with whom I was involved with at the time, but I won't. I'll take full responsibility for the toxicity I allowed to come into my mind, therefore, my body.





For some, it takes getting away from a bad relationship and taking control of one’s life once again. Toxic relationships cause you to give up your personality identity, personal power, and your ability to be happy. Toxic thoughts go with such relationships and end up making you sick.



The secret is to not waste much time on things or people that might affect your mood and your health. Learning to practice healthy detachment is good for you.



Don't waste time on things or people that contribute to the toxicity levels in your mind and body. If you cannot stay away from certain people, than learn to think differently so you do not internalize the emotions that will make you sick.

"In the end, only kindness matters."
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John_Doe420
Senior Member
Username: john_doe420

Post Number: 539
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2010 - 8:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

You are too kind SW, thank you for those words.

as for the post following, yes I know exactly what you mean....my family on my mothers side are probably All what might be termed Sociopathic, or at least display many of those characteristic tendancies...my mother was a very good emotional manipulator, a pathological liar, and was also a raging alcoholic until the year I was born basically (1978 for all who are interested)...your mention of 1977 got my attention for that reason....my father was the exact opposite...hard to learn who I was inside when both parents were so diametrically different....i got a little of both honestly...

my whole family also were either alcoholics or drug addicts of one variety or another...i myself spent a great number of years in that sort of lifestyle (till I had kids anyway lol)...and not that you need to be told but those urges never fully depart...especially when my mother would hand me pills like candy any time she thought I was the least bit down in the dumps....

so many years of my life I spent depressed because of how my mom was...so many lost and wasted years that caused such a disconnect between us...i tried my best to bridge the gap a little once my kids were born...but it was never what it shouldve been...plus it didn't help that my parents were old enough to be my grandparents lol...a big disconnect anyway.

but despite all that, my mother really was my best friend....hell she had to be...we moved so much I never made any real friends anywhere and was around her and only her (my dad worked all the time) my whole life....maybe that's why I find it easier to associate with people online...i never knew that many people in real life to begin with....and the internet just was a dream come true for someone like me...hell it's where I met the woman who would go on to be the mother of my children and my fiance....

anyway enough about me.....just wanted to say thanks for your kindness.
Sonny: Do you think we were all created for a purpose? Id like to
think so. [looks at his hand] Denser alloy. My father gave it to
me. I think he wanted me to kill you.
-I Robot -2004
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Roxie
Member
Username: roxanne

Post Number: 100
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2010 - 9:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

SW:

I'm so glad my post didn't upset you. Just wanted to respond to some of your responses.

In regard to you not living close to your sister: It doesn't really matter as long as you are a simple phone call away. I've been through the same thing. They call daily, over the most insignificant things. In my case, this is simply a manipulative tactic in order to lull me into complacency. At this point they are getting their much needed narcissistic supply (NS) from me. Then, like you said, the phone calls with abruptly stop for day, weeks or months. Then suddenly a call will come in, and God help me if I'm not sitting by the phone awaiting their "oh so important call". I've heard exactly the same thing about them being so worried that they were about to call the police to check on me.

But here's what I've learned: The constantly daily calls are their NS. You can bet your bottom dollar that once the phone calls stop, they are getting their NS from someone else. Once that supply runs out, then they are back, like they've never been away and I must, at all cost, be available to them.

What I wrote about them "telling on themselves": I was really talking about your sister. I'll give you an example:

Several years ago my mother-in-law (mil), after a blessedly long period of no daily phone calls, started calling again, daily, all "sweet and concerned" and just generally chit-chatting, when after about a week, she called wanting to "borrow" a large sum of money. Well, first of all, her translation of "borrow" is "give", and we just did not have that kind of money to loan or give anyone. So, after several attempts, she showed up at our house (she lives in another state), acting all down and out, she just didn't know what she was going to do.

At this time, her husband, my father-in-law had recently died and his insurance had paid off their home, her car, etc. and she was working full time. In other words, she shouldn't have been in such a financial mess.

When my husband asked her how this happened, we got this long drawn out story how a "dear friend" of hers was in a financial bind due to some medical emergency, concerning this friend's husband, and how she had loaned this friend money, but this friend had not been able to repay her.

We explained to her that we simply did not have the money to "loan" her, and she left in a huff ranting about all she had done for us, etc.

Now, this was before cell phones, and apparently she had told her "dear friend" that she would be at our house and gave this friend our phone number.

Now, here's where the story gets really interesting.

This friend called our house a few weeks later, looking for mil. This friend of hers was shocked that I had answered the phone, because she was under the impression that I was hospitalized. Of course, I had no idea what she was talking about. I spoke with this friend of her's for about an hour and learned that mil had "borrowed" money from this friend, to give to "us" because "we were in a financial bind due to my medical emergency" and according to this friend, mil was at our house, collecting money in order to pay this friend off. (Obviously mil was avoiding this friend.)

Imagine this friend's shock when I repeated the story mil told us about her. I have no idea if this woman ever collected on her "loan" from mil.

She inadvertently "told on herself". She was so sure that neither one of us (her friend and me) would ever have the opportunity to speak to one another (mil being the gatekeeper) that she thought she could get away with it. Mil had "used" both of us and our sense of compassion as merely a tool for mil's financial gain.

See how they twist reality and rewrite history?

The point I'm finally getting around to is, your sister may be using the same tactics, as a sort of triangulation, between her friend and you. She may not be using money as a reason, but, possibly using you as a "supply", to keep you talking to her, even long distance, about your concern for this friend. And she may be using this poor friend of hers (or her friend's sister) for the same reason, telling her it is you who are in a bad situation, playing on their sympathy.

People like this have no conscience. It's all about them. And when you call them out on their lie, they just tell more lies to cover up the other lies. If they're talking, they're lying. If they are calling, they want something. Your therapist is right, the only way to stop the abuse, and that is what it is, is to disengage from people like this, family or not.

I know that you know your sister better than I, and I'm sure you are well aware of her behaviour, based on your past, but, I know, at least for me, I never understood this type of covert abuse until just recently. I could never wrap my mind around this as "abuse". It never occurred to me that "family" would do something like this to one another. But sadly, they do and sadder still, it's not that unusual.

If you are being paranoid, you have good reason to be. Although, I wouldn't call it paranoia, but rather being smart and self-defensive. Question everything (in your own mind) she says if you must talk to her and give as little info about yourself, as possible.

People like your sister and my mil see people like you and me as nothing but objects, and see our compassion and kindness as a weakness, when, in fact, it is our kindness and compassion that make us strong, like you with your poor mother.

Continue to stay kind and compassionate and strong, my dear. You are not alone.
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Roxie
Intermediate Member
Username: roxanne

Post Number: 101
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2010 - 9:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

JD:

My heart goes out you, hun. The anniversary of my own mother's death is coming up in a few weeks. We never had the kind of mother-daughter relationship I would have liked, but when she died I cried and cried, not because I was "missing" her, but because I would never have the chance to have that "normal" relationship that I would have loved.

Mama:

That's wonderful that Dan Blocker was your cousin. I always admired him. He seemed so sweet. My husband has an 8mm film of him in a parade in our hometown, from way back when. He looks so much like my dear late father-in-law, whom I loved and cherished. I can never watch an episode of Bonanza without missing my father-in-law.
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4440
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2010 - 3:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

JD, thank you so much for sharing about your feelings about your mom. Your posts almost always touch me on a deep level. We do have so many very similar "things" about our lives.

-----------------


Roxie, you said:

Then suddenly a call will come in, and God help me if I'm not sitting by the phone awaiting their "oh so important call".


But here's what I've learned: The constantly daily calls are their NS. You can bet your bottom dollar that once the phone calls stop, they
are getting their NS from someone else
. Once that supply runs out, then they are back, like they've never been away and I must, at all cost, be available to them.



Lord, Roxie, again, like with a few other people I have communicated with here, you seem to have MY VERY SAME FAMILY!!!!




She inadvertently "told on herself". She was so sure that neither one of us (her friend and me) would ever have the opportunity to speak to one another (mil being the gatekeeper) that she thought she could get away with it.



Exactly!

Believe me, this has crossed my mind several times, both before our "friend" supposedly went into the hospital, and in the past week since.



Question everything (in your own mind) she says if you must talk to her and give as little info about yourself, as possible.



Yes, this is an ongoing struggle. Frankly, if you have read much about ritual abuse/mind control tactics, the victim is programmed from a very early age, to CONTINUE TO REPORT to the handler, or handlers.

My natural openness about myself, was exploited from early on, in addition to programming to break down any boundaries I might try to develop, so that I am compelled, more often than not, to TELL whatever it is that's going on.

I struggle with this, and I cannot tell you how angry and powerless it makes me feel, when the majority of the time, no matter HOW resolved I may be to being silent about my life, I end up talking.


In recent months, I have been able, for some reason that I am unsure of, to keep several relatively important aspects about my plans and my life, to myself, and NOT reveal them to her.


People like your sister and my mil see people like you and me as nothing but objects, and see our compassion and kindness as a weakness


Absolutely. I have been criticized and mocked my entire life for just those kinds of inborn traits, while at the same time, exploited for them.



You said to JD:

The anniversary of my own mother's death
is coming up in a few weeks. We never had the kind of mother-daughter relationship I would have liked, but when she died I cried and cried, not because I was "missing" her, but because I would never have the chance to have that "normal" relationship that I would have loved.


YES. That is how I know I will feel when my father dies. I have already done many years of grieving for both the way things were, the way things are, and the way they never were, and could never be, between us.

But, I imagine I will grieve even more when he's gone, because all illusions that "things might change" will then be gone.

Plus, as I have said, I've been told by people who know, that I will probably have lots more painful memories surface when he dies.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4443
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2010 - 4:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

***sigh***



horoscope today:

It's best to keep quiet about that deep, dark secret you've been dying to confide -- just for now. You may not have the information you need to make a decision.




****SW shakes head and rubs forehead****
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4449
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2010 - 6:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

and another daily horoscope for 3/30:



Things are a little freaky right now, especially around the house. You need to ride it out, as there's no easy way to get around the situation as it stands. Be prepared for a long rant from someone close.




"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 4453
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2010 - 6:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Oh, good grief!!!!



Cancer Horoscopes
(June 21 - Jul 22)

Wednesday, Mar 31st, 2010 -- You are reminded today that you feel better when you are in touch with your emotions, even if something isn't quite right. You would rather be aware of what's going on than be left in the dark. But just because your sensitivity is more acute than usual doesn't mean that you are willing to expose your vulnerability now. Don't let anyone coerce you into revealing your inner secrets before you are ready.





I mean, what IS it with the accuracy of these daily horoscopes?



The are, 90% of the time, so general, or even inaccurate for my life, that this run of accuracy is just....well, bizarre.


sheesh.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Roxie
Intermediate Member
Username: roxanne

Post Number: 102
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2010 - 8:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

SW:

Your horoscopes are freaky! I don't care what anyone says, sometimes these readings are so on target.

What you said about these people extracting info from us, when we know we shouldn't be revealing anything, is so true.

There are certain members of mine and my hubby's family that have this "magical" ability to turn me into a six year old child, spilling my guts to them. It's weird, it's like they can put me into some sort of trance and are able to extract the most personal information from me. (Maybe that's exactly what they are doing.)

Afterwards, once I'm either off of the phone with them, or away from them, I just want to kick myself for running my mouth. They can get info from me that I would never even reveal to my closest friend, much less them, if I were thinking clearly. (Brainwashed?)

It's interesting too, I have noticed my hubby talking of the phone to one of his relatives; it's like his eyes sort of glass over, he becomes very still, and the words just start tumbling out of his mouth. I can tell he's being questioned by his responses and I just want to snatch the phone away from him and hang it up. Once I started noticing this behaviour in him, I realized that that was exactly what I do, and why I get so frustrated with myself after I get off the phone or away from them.

This is why I do not talk to these people, at all. It never turns out well.

Years ago, I started noticing a pattern with mil. She would call me, always when she knew I was home, alone, just to "talk" and before I knew it, she was wanting me to do something for her. If I was unable to jump through her hoop exactly how, where and when she wanted, I would get a phone call from hubby later that same day, wanting to know why I said such and such to his mother. Thing is, the story he got from her was a complete fabrication. I can't tell you how many arguments I had with him, defending myself against her lies. And why on earth he believes her lies is a mystery, because he knows she's a liar. Hell, she could tell him that I hijacked the Space Shuttle or shot JFK and he would believe her.

Having had enough, one day, I convinced him to attach a tape recorder to the phone. I told him I had nothing to hide from him and I wanted him to know, for a fact, exactly what was said. He finally agreed, and within a few days, she called, and, unknown to her, recorded.

She wanted me to do something, that I didn't want to do, that she could easily do herself, and I told her to come by the house, AFTER hubby came home from work. She got mad, hung up on me and called hubby with one whopper of a lie. When he called me back, I told him the conversation never happened like she told him and played the taped conversation back to him.

What an eye opener it was for him. Why he had never believed me all those years is beyond me, but I was finally vindicated.

Oddly, I don't think he ever told her she was being recorded, but he may have, but she has never called me again, and that was about 20 years ago.

Since then, he has had a few conversations with her wherein he always gives her every minute detail of our lives, much to my horror. And then, of course, when she spreads the info around, it's always her version, her re-written history.

This strange hold she had on me and hubby (and still has on hubby, when he talks to her) is one reason I posted in the Witness thread (I think) about wondering if this MC is something that is, maybe even unknown to our handlers, being perpetrated on certain children (us), from birth. And it's people like us, that just don't conform, or eventually stop conforming, which usually doesn't end well. We are constantly being "punished" for this nonconformity. And they will pursue us to the death, either ours or theirs. And when they die, and we still haven't been "broken" then there is always someone else to to inherit that position over us.

I wonder if we'll ever be free.

I'm glad you started this "Lesson" thread. Perhaps if more of us share our life's lessons, no matter how "freaky" they are, it may help someone else, in a similar situation realize they are not alone. That they are not insane and that "There Be Monsters." And that the "monsters" are not always the creature under the bed or hiding in the closet, but more times than not, the very people we are supposed to trust and depend on.