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Patricia Davis
Senior Member
Username: patricia

Post Number: 11018
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 5:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I'm in the process of reading that site, too, and I find myself rolling my eyes and sighing a lot when he starts proselytizing. Actually, to be fair, he's not so much trying to recruit new Christians as he is comforting himself with his learned-by-rote dogma. MANY mind control program survivors fall into doing this. I suspect it's due to a desperate need on a very deep level for rigid, heirarchical systems of thought that mirror their deep programming.

They're seeking a framework other than that which has been programmed into them since early childhood and fanatical, fundamentalist Christians seem to be one of the few groups who actually believe in the existence of the Cult and of government mind control programs. Look at Fritz Springmeier--he's published masses of information on the subject and most of it is heavily, indigestibly larded with fundie Christianity

I suspect that my choice of Wicca innoculated me against that, along with my rebellion against any sort of religious authority. But I understand and sympathize with all the MC program survivors who've replaced part of their programming with Religious Right stuff. Some folks respond to attempts to control them by identifying with the Controller and some by resisting.
"When power depends upon lies, then truth is made a fugitive" - me, 2006
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Patricia Davis
Senior Member
Username: patricia

Post Number: 11020
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 6:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

It's all old testament stuff that he's quoting, so half the time, I think he's pushing Judaism, not Christianity. Took me a while to notice, despite his site's name, since every other survivor I've met has been either fanatically Christian or Pagan or atheist. I guess he's the first Jewish/Christian one I've heard of.....

(Message edited by patricia on December 07, 2006)
"When power depends upon lies, then truth is made a fugitive" - me, 2006
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TheLabRat
Senior Member
Username: thelabrat

Post Number: 828
Registered: 1-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 11:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Jews For Jesus, perhaps?

I was thinking the same thing, Patricia, that they have replaced (or tried to) their programming with religious beliefs, as you said, in an attempt to comfort themselves.
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Thomas
Senior Member
Username: thomas_j_veil

Post Number: 6154
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 2:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Just stopping by, to keep this thread from falling off into the abyss.
“Question what’s real. Question who’s real.”

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fortwynt
New member
Username: fortwynt

Post Number: 17
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 2:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Coming from a deep fundamentalist christian background (Pentacostal/Apostolic for many years), I can definitely relate to the "cult" mindset....I can remember being so wrapped up in it that I bought everything they said lock, stock, and barrel...it took many, many years for me to reach the point where I can now say that I can take instruction from all philosophy and religion, not simply christianity...though I will always believe in one god, and will always believe Christ really existed and believe in the things he reportedly said...it just took so long to break away from the mindless following of the leader, I can see why some people NEVER escape it.
"Be the change that you wish to see in the world"

--Ghandi
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Patricia Davis
Senior Member
Username: patricia

Post Number: 11177
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 1:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Welcome, fortwynt Glad you found your way here. The more folks like you, who've been exposed to and ultimately escaped a cult background, the better. You kind of have to have "been there" to understand how seductive cults are. The subtler ones are extremely difficult to detect and an intelligent person can get sucked in SO easily.

And I love your sig line, too! Gandhi also said, "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." one of my favorite quotes for the Bu$h administration years.
"When power depends upon lies, then truth is made a fugitive" - me, 2006
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Da'an
Senior Member
Username: daan

Post Number: 1641
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 12:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

the sorting of 'wheat' from chaff...
the "bread+butter" central issue...
"UP"
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Nandor
Advanced Member
Username: doug_irvine

Post Number: 245
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 4:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/canada_us_justice_spy

Of course they destroyed all the files, once the C.I.A. got the results they needed. Why? should they keep all that nasty old evidence around, cluttering everything up.
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Thomas
Senior Member
Username: thomas_j_veil

Post Number: 6420
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 4:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I sincerely hope Janine Huard receives the reparations she is entitled to—and everything she is asking for. I also hope this highlights to millions the FACT that these sadistic experiments happened.

That such experiments were "successful" (if such a word can even be used to describe torture) in being effective in manipulating human minds makes it hopelessly naïve to suppose that "mind control" was abandoned by our governments, as they claimed it was in the mid 1970's.

I fully expect that "mind control" is even more potent today—and insidious.
“Question what’s real. Question who’s real. Trust your own discernment.”

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Thomas
Senior Member
Username: thomas_j_veil

Post Number: 6490
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 1:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Check this out, from yesterday's Washington Post:

quote:

Mind Games

New on the Internet: a community of people who believe the government is beaming voices into their minds. They may be crazy, but the Pentagon has pursued a weapon that can do just that.

By Sharon Weinberger
Sunday, January 14, 2007; W22

IF HARLAN GIRARD IS CRAZY, HE DOESN'T ACT THE PART. He is standing just where he said he would be, below the Philadelphia train station's World War II memorial -- a soaring statue of a winged angel embracing a fallen combatant, as if lifting him to heaven. Girard is wearing pressed khaki pants, expensive-looking leather loafers and a crisp blue button-down. He looks like a local businessman dressed for a casual Friday -- a local businessman with a wickedly dark sense of humor, which had become apparent when he said to look for him beneath "the angel sodomizing a dead soldier." At 70, he appears robust and healthy -- not the slightest bit disheveled or unusual-looking. He is also carrying a bag.

Girard's description of himself is matter-of-fact, until he explains what's in the bag: documents he believes prove that the government is attempting to control his mind. He carries that black, weathered bag everywhere he goes. "Every time I go out, I'm prepared to come home and find everything is stolen," he says.

The bag aside, Girard appears intelligent and coherent. At a table in front of Dunkin' Donuts inside the train station, Girard opens the bag and pulls out a thick stack of documents, carefully labeled and sorted with yellow sticky notes bearing neat block print. The documents are an authentic-looking mix of news stories, articles culled from military journals and even some declassified national security documents that do seem to show that the U.S. government has attempted to develop weapons that send voices into people's heads.

"It's undeniable that the technology exists," Girard says, "but if you go to the police and say, 'I'm hearing voices,' they're going to lock you up for psychiatric evaluation."

The thing that's missing from his bag -- the lack of which makes it hard to prove he isn't crazy -- is even a single document that would buttress the implausible notion that the government is currently targeting a large group of American citizens with mind-control technology. The only direct evidence for that, Girard admits, lies with alleged victims such as himself.

And of those, there are many.

IT'S 9:01 P.M. WHEN THE FIRST PERSON SPEAKS during the Saturday conference call.

Unsure whether anyone else is on the line yet, the female caller throws out the first question: "You got gang stalking or V2K?" she asks no one in particular.

There's a short, uncomfortable pause.

"V2K, really bad. 24-7," a man replies.

"Gang stalking," another woman says.

"Oh, yeah, join the club," yet another man replies.

The members of this confessional "club" are not your usual victims. This isn't a group for alcoholics, drug addicts or survivors of childhood abuse; the people connecting on the call are self-described victims of mind control -- people who believe they have been targeted by a secret government program that tracks them around the clock, using technology to probe and control their minds.

The callers frequently refer to themselves as TIs, which is short for Targeted Individuals, and talk about V2K -- the official military abbreviation stands for "voice to skull" and denotes weapons that beam voices or sounds into the head. In their esoteric lexicon, "gang stalking" refers to the belief that they are being followed and harassed: by neighbors, strangers or colleagues who are agents for the government.

A few more "hellos" are exchanged, interrupted by beeps signaling late arrivals: Bill from Columbus, Barbara from Philadelphia, Jim from California and a dozen or so others.

Derrick Robinson, the conference call moderator, calls order.

"It's five after 9," says Robinson, with the sweetly reasonable intonation of a late-night radio host. "Maybe we should go ahead and start."

THE IDEA OF A GROUP OF PEOPLE CONVINCED THEY ARE TARGETED BY WEAPONS that can invade their minds has become a cultural joke, shorthanded by the image of solitary lunatics wearing tinfoil hats to deflect invisible mind beams. "Tinfoil hat," says Wikipedia, has become "a popular stereotype and term of derision; the phrase serves as a byword for paranoia and is associated with conspiracy theorists."

In 2005, a group of MIT students conducted a formal study using aluminum foil and radio signals. Their surprising finding: Tinfoil hats may actually amplify radio frequency signals. Of course, the tech students meant the study as a joke.

But during the Saturday conference call, the subject of aluminum foil is deadly serious. The MIT study had prompted renewed debate; while a few TIs realized it was a joke at their expense, some saw the findings as an explanation for why tinfoil didn't seem to stop the voices. Others vouched for the material.

"Tinfoil helps tremendously," reports one conference call participant, who describes wrapping it around her body underneath her clothing.

"Where do you put the tinfoil?" a man asks.

"Anywhere, everywhere," she replies. "I even put it in a hat."

A TI in an online mind-control forum recommends a Web site called "Block EMF" (as in electromagnetic frequencies), which advertises a full line of clothing, including aluminum-lined boxer shorts described as a "sheer, comfortable undergarment you can wear over your regular one to shield yourself from power lines and computer electric fields, and microwave, radar, and TV radiation." Similarly, a tinfoil hat disguised as a regular baseball cap is "smart and subtle."

For all the scorn, the ranks of victims -- or people who believe they are victims -- are speaking up. In the course of the evening, there are as many as 40 clicks from people joining the call, and much larger numbers participate in the online forum, which has 143 members. A note there mentioning interest from a journalist prompted more than 200 e-mail responses.

Until recently, people who believe the government is beaming voices into their heads would have added social isolation to their catalogue of woes. But now, many have discovered hundreds, possibly thousands, of others just like them all over the world. Web sites dedicated to electronic harassment and gang stalking have popped up in India, China, Japan, South Korea, the United Kingdom, Russia and elsewhere. Victims have begun to host support meetings in major cities, including Washington. Favorite topics at the meetings include lessons on how to build shields (the proverbial tinfoil hats), media and PR training, and possible legal strategies for outlawing mind control.

The biggest hurdle for TIs is getting people to take their concerns seriously. A proposal made in 2001 by Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) to ban "psychotronic weapons" (another common term for mind-control technology) was hailed by TIs as a great step forward. But the bill was widely derided by bloggers and columnists and quickly dropped.

Doug Gordon, Kucinich's spokesman, would not discuss mind control other than to say the proposal was part of broader legislation outlawing weapons in space. The bill was later reintroduced, minus the mind control. "It was not the concentration of the legislation, which is why it was tightened up and redrafted," was all Gordon would say.

Unable to garner much support from their elected representatives, TIs have started their own PR campaign. And so, last spring, the Saturday conference calls centered on plans to hold a rally in Washington. A 2005 attempt at a rally drew a few dozen people and was ultimately rained out; the TIs were determined to make another go of it. Conversations focused around designing T-shirts, setting up congressional appointments, fundraising, creating a new Web site and formalizing a slogan. After some debate over whether to focus on gang stalking or mind control, the group came up with a compromise slogan that covered both: "Freedom From Covert Surveillance and Electronic Harassment."

Conference call moderator Robinson, who says his gang stalking began when he worked at the National Security Agency in the 1980s, offers his assessment of the group's prospects: Maybe this rally wouldn't produce much press, but it's a first step. "I see this as a movement," he says. "We're picking up people all the time."

HARLAN GIRARD SAYS HIS PROBLEMS BEGAN IN 1983, while he was a real estate developer in Los Angeles. The harassment was subtle at first: One day a woman pulled up in a car, wagged her finger at him, then sped away; he saw people running underneath his window at night; he noticed some of his neighbors seemed to be watching him; he heard someone moving in the crawl space under his apartment at night.

Girard sought advice from this then-girlfriend, a practicing psychologist, whom he declines to identify. He says she told him, "Nobody can become psychotic in their late 40s." She said he didn't seem to manifest other symptoms of psychotic behavior -- he dressed well, paid his bills -- and, besides his claims of surveillance, which sounded paranoid, he behaved normally. "People who are psychotic are socially isolated," he recalls her saying.

After a few months, Girard says, the harassment abruptly stopped. But the respite didn't last. In 1984, appropriately enough, things got seriously weird. He'd left his real estate career to return to school at the University of Pennsylvania, where he was studying for a master's degree in landscape architecture. He harbored dreams of designing parks and public spaces. Then, he says, he began to hear voices. Girard could distinguish several different male voices, which came complete with a mental image of how the voices were being generated: from a recording studio, with "four slops sitting around a card table drinking beer," he says.

The voices were crass but also strangely courteous, addressing him as "Mr. Girard."

They taunted him. They asked him if he thought he was normal; they suggested he was going crazy. They insulted his classmates: When an overweight student showed up for a field trip in a white raincoat, they said, "Hey, Mr. Girard, doesn't she look like a refrigerator?"

Six months after the voices began, they had another question for him: "Mr. Girard, Mr. Girard. Why aren't you dead yet?" At first, he recalls, the voices would speak just two or three times a day, but it escalated into a near-constant cacophony, often accompanied by severe pain all over his body -- which Girard now attributes to directed-energy weapons that can shoot invisible beams.

The voices even suggested how he could figure out what was happening to him. He says they told him to go to the electrical engineering department to "tell them you're writing science fiction and you don't want to write anything inconsistent with physical reality. Then tell them exactly what has happened."

Girard went and got some rudimentary explanations of how technology could explain some of the things he was describing.

"Finally, I said: 'Look, I must come to the point, because I need answers. This is happening to me; it's not science fiction.'" They laughed.

He got the same response from friends, he says. "They regarded me as crazy, which is a humiliating experience."

When asked why he didn't consult a doctor about the voices and the pain, he says, "I don't dare start talking to people because of the potential stigma of it all. I don't want to be treated differently. Here I was in Philadelphia. Something was going on, I don't know any doctors . . . I know somebody's doing something to me."

It was a struggle to graduate, he says, but he was determined, and he persevered. In 1988, the same year he finished his degree, his father died, leaving Girard an inheritance large enough that he did not have to work.

So, instead of becoming a landscape architect, Girard began a full-time investigation of what was happening to him, often traveling to Washington in pursuit of government documents relating to mind control. He put an ad in a magazine seeking other victims. Only a few people responded. But over the years, as he met more and more people like himself, he grew convinced that he was part of what he calls an "electronic concentration camp."

What he was finding on his research trips also buttressed his belief: Girard learned that in the 1950s, the CIA had drugged unwitting victims with LSD as part of a rogue mind-control experiment called MK-ULTRA. He came across references to the CIA seeking to influence the mind with electromagnetic fields. Then he found references in an academic research book to work that military researchers at Walter Reed Army Institute of Research had done in the 1970s with pulsed microwaves to transmit words that a subject would hear in his head. Elsewhere, he came across references to attempts to use electromagnetic energy, sound waves or microwave beams to cause non-lethal pain to the body. For every symptom he experienced, he believed he found references to a weapon that could cause it.

How much of the research Girard cites checks out?

Concerns about microwaves and mind control date to the 1960s, when the U.S. government discovered that its embassy in Moscow was being bombarded by low-level electromagnetic radiation. In 1965, according to declassified Defense Department documents, the Pentagon, at the behest of the White House, launched Project Pandora, top-secret research to explore the behavioral and biological effects of low-level microwaves. For approximately four years, the Pentagon conducted secret research: zapping monkeys; exposing unwitting sailors to microwave radiation; and conducting a host of other unusual experiments (a sub-project of Project Pandora was titled Project Bizarre). The results were mixed, and the program was plagued by disagreements and scientific squabbles. The "Moscow signal," as it was called, was eventually attributed to eavesdropping, not mind control, and Pandora ended in 1970. And with it, the military's research into so-called non-thermal microwave effects seemed to die out, at least in the unclassified realm.

But there are hints of ongoing research: An academic paper written for the Air Force in the mid-1990s mentions the idea of a weapon that would use sound waves to send words into a person's head. "The signal can be a 'message from God' that can warn the enemy of impending doom, or encourage the enemy to surrender," the author concluded.

In 2002, the Air Force Research Laboratory patented precisely such a technology: using microwaves to send words into someone's head. That work is frequently cited on mind-control Web sites. Rich Garcia, a spokesman for the research laboratory's directed energy directorate, declined to discuss that patent or current or related research in the field, citing the lab's policy not to comment on its microwave work.

In response to a Freedom of Information Act request filed for this article, the Air Force released unclassified documents surrounding that 2002 patent -- records that note that the patent was based on human experimentation in October 1994 at the Air Force lab, where scientists were able to transmit phrases into the heads of human subjects, albeit with marginal intelligibility. Research appeared to continue at least through 2002. Where this work has gone since is unclear -- the research laboratory, citing classification, refused to discuss it or release other materials.

The official U.S. Air Force position is that there are no non-thermal effects of microwaves. Yet Dennis Bushnell, chief scientist at NASA's Langley Research Center, tagged microwave attacks against the human brain as part of future warfare in a 2001 presentation to the National Defense Industrial Association about "Future Strategic Issues."

"That work is exceedingly sensitive" and unlikely to be reported in any unclassified documents, he says.

Meanwhile, the military's use of weapons that employ electromagnetic radiation to create pain is well-known, as are some of the limitations of such weapons. In 2001, the Pentagon declassified one element of this research: the Active Denial System, a weapon that uses electromagnetic radiation to heat skin and create an intense burning sensation. So, yes, there is technology designed to beam painful invisible rays at humans, but the weapon seems to fall far short of what could account for many of the TIs' symptoms. While its exact range is classified, Doug Beason, an expert in directed-energy weapons, puts it at about 700 meters, and the beam cannot penetrate a number of materials, such as aluminum. Considering the size of the full-scale weapon, which resembles a satellite dish, and its operational limitations, the ability of the government or anyone else to shoot beams at hundreds of people -- on city streets, into their homes and while they travel in cars and planes -- is beyond improbable.

But, given the history of America's clandestine research, it's reasonable to assume that if the defense establishment could develop mind-control or long-distance ray weapons, it almost certainly would. And, once developed, the possibility that they might be tested on innocent civilians could not be categorically dismissed.

Girard, for his part, believes these weapons were not only developed but were also tested on him more than 20 years ago.

What would the government gain by torturing him? Again, Girard found what he believed to be an explanation, or at least a precedent: During the Cold War, the government conducted radiation experiments on scores of unwitting victims, essentially using them as human guinea pigs. Girard came to believe that he, too, was a walking experiment.

Not that Girard thinks his selection was totally random: He believes he was targeted because of a disparaging remark he made to a Republican fundraiser about George H.W. Bush in the early 1980s. Later, Girard says, the voices confirmed his suspicion.

"One night I was going to bed; the usual drivel was going on," he says. "The constant stream of drivel. I was just about to go to bed, and a voice says: 'Mr. Girard, do you know who was in our studio with us? That was George Bush, vice president of the United States.'"

GIRARD'S STORY, HOWEVER STRANGE, reflects what TIs around the world report: a chance encounter with a government agency or official, followed by surveillance and gang stalking, and then, in many cases, voices, and pain similar to electric shocks. Some in the community have taken it upon themselves to document as many cases as possible. One TI from California conducted about 50 interviews, narrowing the symptoms down to several major areas: "ringing in the ears," "manipulation of body parts," "hearing voices," "piercing sensation on skin," "sinus problems" and "sexual attacks." In fact, the TI continued, "many report the sensation of having their genitalia manipulated."

Both male and female TIs report a variety of "attacks" to their sexual organs. "My testicles became so sore I could barely walk," Girard says of his early experiences. Others, however, report the attacks in the form of sexual stimulation, including one TI who claims he dropped out of the seminary after constant sexual stimulation by directed-energy weapons. Susan Sayler, a TI in San Diego, says many women among the TIs suffer from attacks to their sexual organs but are often embarrassed to talk about it with outsiders.

"It's sporadic, you just never know when it will happen," she says. "A lot of the women say it's as soon as you lay down in bed -- that's when you would get hit the worst. It happened to me as I was driving, at odd times."

What made her think it was an electronic attack and not just in her head? "There was no sexual attraction to a man when it would happen. That's what was wrong. It did not feel like a muscle spasm or whatever," she says. "It's so . . . electronic."

Gloria Naylor, a renowned African American writer, seems to defy many of the stereotypes of someone who believes in mind control. A winner of the National Book Award, Naylor is best known for her acclaimed novel, The Women of Brewster Place, which described a group of women living in a poor urban neighborhood and was later made into a miniseries by Oprah Winfrey.

But in 2005, she published a lesser-known work, 1996, a semi-autobiographical book describing her experience as a TI. "I didn't want to tell this story. It's going to take courage. Perhaps more courage than I possess, but they've left me no alternatives," Naylor writes at the beginning of her book. "I am in a battle for my mind. If I stop now, they'll have won, and I will lose myself." The book is coherent, if hard to believe. It's also marked by disturbing passages describing how Jewish American agents were responsible for Naylor's surveillance. "Of the many cars that kept coming and going down my road, most were driven by Jews," she writes in the book. When asked about that passage in a recent interview, she defended her logic: Being from New York, she claimed, she can recognize Jews.

Naylor lives on a quiet street in Brooklyn in a majestic brownstone with an interior featuring intricate woodwork and tasteful decorations that attest to a successful literary career. She speaks about her situation calmly, occasionally laughing at her own predicament and her struggle with what she originally thought was mental illness. "I would observe myself," she explains. "I would lie in bed while the conversations were going on, and I'd ask: Maybe it is schizophrenia?"

Like Girard, Naylor describes what she calls "street theater" -- incidents that might be dismissed by others as coincidental, but which Naylor believes were set up. She noticed suspicious cars driving by her isolated vacation home. On an airplane, fellow passengers mimicked her every movement -- like mimes on a street.

Voices similar to those in Girard's case followed -- taunting voices cursing her, telling her she was stupid, that she couldn't write. Expletive-laced language filled her head. Naylor sought help from a psychiatrist and received a prescription for an antipsychotic drug. But the medication failed to stop the voices, she says, which only added to her conviction that the harassment was real.

For almost four years, Naylor says, the voices prevented her from writing. In 2000, she says, around the time she discovered the mind-control forums, the voices stopped and the surveillance tapered off. It was then that she began writing 1996 as a "catharsis."

Colleagues urged Naylor not to publish the book, saying she would destroy her reputation. But she did publish, albeit with a small publishing house. The book was generally ignored by critics but embraced by TIs.

Naylor is not the first writer to describe such a personal descent. Evelyn Waugh, one of the great novelists of the 20th century, details similar experiences in The Ordeal of Gilbert Pinfold. Waugh's book, published in 1957, has eerie similarities to Naylor's.

Embarking on a recuperative cruise, Pinfold begins to hear voices on the ship that he believes are part of a wireless system capable of broadcasting into his head; he believes the instigator recruited fellow passengers to act as operatives; and he describes "performances" put on by passengers directed at him yet meant to look innocuous to others.

Waugh wrote his book several years after recovering from a similar episode and realizing that the voices and paranoia were the result of drug-induced hallucinations.

Naylor, who hasn't written a book since 1996, is now back at work on an historical novel she hopes will return her to the literary mainstream. She remains convinced that she was targeted by mind control. The many echoes of her ordeal she sees on the mind-control forums reassure her she's not crazy, she says.

Of course, some of the things she sees on the forum do strike her as crazy. "But who I am to say?" she says. "Maybe I sound crazy to somebody else."

SOME TIS, SUCH AS ED MOORE, A YOUNG MEDICAL DOCTOR, take a slightly more skeptical approach. He criticizes what he calls the "wacky claims" of TIs who blame various government agencies or groups of people without any proof. "I have yet to see a claim of who is behind this that has any data to support it," he writes.

Nonetheless, Moore still believes the voices in his head are the result of mind control and that the U.S. government is the most likely culprit. Moore started hearing voices in 2003, just as he completed his medical residency in anesthesiology; he was pulling an all-nighter studying for board exams when he heard voices coming from a nearby house commenting on him, on his abilities as a doctor, on his sanity. At first, he thought he was simply overhearing conversations through walls (much as Waugh's fictional alter ego first thought), but when no one else could hear the voices, he realized they were in his head. Moore went through a traumatic two years, including hospitalization for depression with auditory hallucinations.

"One tries to convince friends and family that you are being electronically harassed with voices that only you can hear," he writes in an e-mail. "You learn to stop doing that. They don't believe you, and they become sad and concerned, and it amplifies your own depression when you have voices screaming at you and your friends and family looking at you as a helpless, sick, mentally unbalanced wreck."

He says he grew frustrated with anti-psychotic medications meant to stop the voices, both because the treatments didn't work and because psychiatrists showed no interest in what the voices were telling him. He began to look for some other way to cope.

"In March of 2005, I started looking up support groups on the Internet," he wrote. "My wife would cry when she would see these sites, knowing I still heard voices, but I did not know what else to do." In 2006, he says, his wife, who had stood by him for three years, filed for divorce.

Moore, like other TIs, is cautious about sharing details of his life. He worries about looking foolish to friends and colleagues -- but he says that risk is ultimately worthwhile if he can bring attention to the issue.

With his father's financial help, Moore is now studying for an electrical engineering degree at the University of Texas at San Antonio, hoping to prove that V2K, the technology to send voices into people's heads, is real. Being in school, around other people, helps him cope, he writes, but the voices continue to taunt him.

Recently, he says, they told him: "We'll never stop [messing] with you."

A WEEK BEFORE THE TIS RALLY ON THE NATIONAL MALL, John Alexander, one of the people whom Harlan Girard holds personally responsible for the voices in his head, is at a Chili's restaurant in Crystal City explaining over a Philly cheese steak and fries why the United States needs mind-control weapons.

A former Green Beret who served in Vietnam, Alexander went on to a number of national security jobs, and rubbed shoulders with prominent military and political leaders. Long known for taking an interest in exotic weapons, his 1980 article, "The New Mental Battlefield," published in the Army journal Military Review, is cited by self-described victims as proof of his complicity in mind control. Now retired from the government and living in Las Vegas, Alexander continues to advise the military. He is in the Washington area that day for an official meeting.

Beneath a shock of white hair is the mind of a self-styled military thinker. Alexander belongs to a particular set of Pentagon advisers who consider themselves defense intellectuals, focusing on big-picture issues, future threats and new capabilities. Alexander's career led him from work on sticky foam that would stop an enemy in his or her tracks to dalliances in paranormal studies and psychics, which he still defends as operationally useful.

In an earlier phone conversation, Alexander said that in the 1990s, when he took part in briefings at the CIA, there was never any talk of "mind control, or mind-altering drugs or technologies, or anything like that."

According to Alexander, the military and intelligence agencies were still scared by the excesses of MK-ULTRA, the infamous CIA program that involved, in part, slipping LSD to unsuspecting victims. "Until recently, anything that smacked of [mind control] was extremely dangerous" because Congress would simply take the money away, he said.

Alexander acknowledged that "there were some abuses that took place," but added that, on the whole, "I would argue we threw the baby out with the bath water."

But September 11, 2001, changed the mood in Washington, and some in the national security community are again expressing interest in mind control, particularly a younger generation of officials who weren't around for MK-ULTRA. "It's interesting, that it's coming back," Alexander observed.

While Alexander scoffs at the notion that he is somehow part of an elaborate plot to control people's minds, he acknowledges support for learning how to tap into a potential enemy's brain. He gives as an example the possible use of functional magnetic resonance imaging, or fMRI, for lie detection. "Brain mapping" with fMRI theoretically could allow interrogators to know when someone is lying by watching for activity in particular parts of the brain. For interrogating terrorists, fMRI could come in handy, Alexander suggests. But any conceivable use of the technique would fall far short of the kind of mind-reading TIs complain about.

Alexander also is intrigued by the possibility of using electronic means to modify behavior. The dilemma of the war on terrorism, he notes, is that it never ends. So what do you do with enemies, such as those at Guantanamo: keep them there forever? That's impractical. Behavior modification could be an alternative, he says.

"Maybe I can fix you, or electronically neuter you, so it's safe to release you into society, so you won't come back and kill me," Alexander says. It's only a matter of time before technology allows that scenario to come true, he continues. "We're now getting to where we can do that." He pauses for a moment to take a bite of his sandwich. "Where does that fall in the ethics spectrum? That's a really tough question."

When Alexander encounters a query he doesn't want to answer, such as one about the ethics of mind control, he smiles and raises his hands level to his chest, as if balancing two imaginary weights. In one hand is mind control and the sanctity of free thought -- and in the other hand, a tad higher -- is the war on terrorism.

But none of this has anything to do with the TIs, he says. "Just because things are secret, people tend to extrapolate. Common sense does not prevail, and even when you point out huge leaps in logic that just cannot be true, they are not dissuaded."

WHAT IS IT THAT BRINGS SOMEONE, EVEN AN INTELLIGENT PERSON, to ascribe the experience of hearing disembodied voices to government weapons?

In her book, Abducted, Harvard psychologist Susan Clancy examines a group that has striking parallels to the TIs: people who believe they've been kidnapped by aliens. The similarities are often uncanny: Would-be abductees describe strange pains, and feelings of being watched or targeted. And although the alleged abductees don't generally have auditory hallucinations, they do sometimes believe that their thoughts are controlled by aliens, or that they've been implanted with advanced technology.

(On the online forum, some TIs posted vociferous objections to the parallel, concerned that the public finds UFOs even weirder than mind control. "It will keep us all marginalized and discredited," one griped.)

Clancy argues that the main reason people believe they've been abducted by aliens is that it provides them with a compelling narrative to explain their perception that strange things have happened to them, such as marks on their bodies (marks others would simply dismiss as bruises), stimulation to their sexual organs (as the TIs describe) or feelings of paranoia. "It's not just an explanation for your problems; it's a source of meaning for your life," Clancy says.

In the case of TIs, mind-control weapons are an explanation for the voices they hear in their head. Socrates heard a voice and thought it was a demon; Joan of Arc heard voices from God. As one TI noted in an e-mail: "Each person undergoing this harassment is looking for the solution to the problem. Each person analyzes it through his or her own particular spectrum of beliefs. If you are a scientific-minded person, then you will probably analyze the situation from that perspective and conclude it must be done with some kind of electronic devices. If you are a religious person, you will see it as a struggle between the elements of whatever religion you believe in. If you are maybe, perhaps more eccentric, you may think that it is alien in nature."

Or, if you happen to live in the United States in the early 21st century, you may fear the growing power of the NSA, CIA and FBI.

Being a victim of government surveillance is also, arguably, better than being insane. In Waugh's novella based on his own painful experience, when Pinfold concludes that hidden technology is being used to infiltrate his brain, he "felt nothing but gratitude in his discovery." Why? "He might be unpopular; he might be ridiculous; but he was not mad."

Ralph Hoffman, a professor of psychiatry at Yale who has studied auditory hallucinations, regularly sees people who believe the voices are a part of government harassment (others believe they are God, dead relatives or even ex-girlfriends). Not all people who hear voices are schizophrenic, he says, noting that people can hear voices episodically in highly emotional states. What exactly causes these voices is still unknown, but one thing is certain: People who think the voices are caused by some external force are rarely dissuaded from their delusional belief, he says. "These are highly emotional and gripping experiences that are so compelling for them that ordinary reality seems bland."

Perhaps because the experience is so vivid, he says, even some of those who improve through treatment merely decide the medical regimen somehow helped protect their brain from government weapons.

Scott Temple, a professor of psychiatry at Penn State University who has been involved in two recent studies of auditory hallucinations, notes that those who suffer such hallucinations frequently lack insight into their illness. Even among those who do understand they are sick, "that awareness comes and goes," he says. "People feel overwhelmed, and the delusional interpretations return."

BACK AT THE PHILADELPHIA TRAIN STATION, Girard seems more agitated. In a meeting the week before, his "handlers" had spoken to him only briefly -- they weren't in the right position to attack him, Girard surmises, based on the lack of voices. Today, his conversation jumps more rapidly from one subject to the next: victims of radiation experiments, his hatred of George H.W. Bush, MK-ULTRA, his personal experiences.

Asked about his studies at Penn, he replies by talking about his problems with reading: "I told you, everything I write they dictate to me," he says, referring again to the voices. "When I read, they're reading to me. My eyes go across; they're moving my eyes down the line. They're reading it to me. When I close the book, I can't remember a thing I read. That's why they do it."

The week before, Girard had pointed to only one person who appeared suspicious to him -- a young African American man reading a book; this time, however, he hears more voices, which leads him to believe the station is crawling with agents.

"Let's change our location," Girard says after a while. "I'm sure they have 40 or 50 people in here today. I escaped their surveillance last time -- they won't let that happen again."

Asked to explain the connection between mind control and the University of Pennsylvania, which Girard alleges is involved in the conspiracy, he begins to talk about defense contractors located near the Philadelphia campus: "General Electric was right next to the parking garage; General Electric Space Systems occupies a huge building right over there. From that building, you could see into the studio where I was doing my work most of the time. I asked somebody what they were doing there. You know, it had to do with computers. GE Space Systems. They were supposed to be tracking missile debris from this location . . . pardon me. What was your question again?"

Yet many parts of Girard's life seem to reflect that of any affluent 70-year-old bachelor. He travels frequently to France for extended vacations and takes part in French cultural activities in Philadelphia. He has set up a travel scholarship at the Cleveland Institute of Art in the name of his late mother, who attended school there (he changed his last name 27 years ago for "personal reasons"), and he travels to meet the students who benefit from the fund. And while the bulk of his time is spent on his research and writing about mind control, he has other interests. He follows politics and describes outings with friends and family members with whom he doesn't talk about mind control, knowing they would view it skeptically.

Girard acknowledges that some of his experiences mirror symptoms of schizophrenia, but asked if he ever worried that the voices might in fact be caused by mental illness, he answers sharply with one word: "No."

How, then, does he know the voices are real?

"How do you know you know anything?" Girard replies. "How do you know I exist? How do you know this isn't a dream you're having, from which you'll wake up in a few minutes? I suppose that analogy is the closest thing: You know when you have a dream. Sometimes it could be perfectly lucid, but you know it's a dream."

The very "realness" of the voices is the issue -- how do you disbelieve something you perceive as real? That's precisely what Hoffman, the Yale psychiatrist, points out: So lucid are the voices that the sufferers -- regardless of their educational level or self-awareness -- are unable to see them as anything but real. "One thing I can assure you," Hoffman says, "is that for them, it feels real."

IT LOOKS ALMOST LIKE ANY OTHER SMALL POLITICAL RALLY IN WASHINGTON. Posters adorn the gate on the southwest side of the Capitol Reflecting Pool, as attendees set up a table with press materials, while volunteers test a loudspeaker and set out coolers filled with bottled water. The sun is out, the weather is perfect, and an eclectic collection of people from across the country has gathered to protest mind control.

There is not a tinfoil hat to be seen. Only the posters and paraphernalia hint at the unusual. "Stop USA electronic harassment," urges one poster. "Directed Energy Assaults," reads another. Smaller signs in the shape of tombstones say, "RIP MKULTRA." The main display, set in front of the speaker's lectern has a more extended message: "HELP STOP HI-TECH ASSAULT PSYCHOTRONIC TORTURE."

About 35 TIs show up for the June rally, in addition to a few friends and family members. Speakers alternate between giving personal testimonials and descriptions of research into mind-control technology. Most of the gawkers at the rally are foreign tourists. A few hecklers snicker at the signs, but mostly people are either confused or indifferent. The articles on mind control at the table -- from mainstream news magazines -- go untouched.

"How can you expect people to get worked up over this if they don't care about eavesdropping or eminent domain?" one man challenges after stopping to flip through the literature. Mary Ann Stratton, who is manning the table, merely shrugs and smiles sadly. There is no answer: Everyone at the rally acknowledges it is an uphill battle.

In general, the outlook for TIs is not good; many lose their jobs, houses and family. Depression is common. But for many at the rally, experiencing the community of mind-control victims seems to help. One TI, a man who had been a rescue swimmer in the Coast Guard before voices in his head sent him on a downward spiral, expressed the solace he found among fellow TIs in a long e-mail to another TI: "I think that the only people that can help are people going through the same thing. Everyone else will not believe you, or they are possibly involved."

In the end, though, nothing could help him enough. In August 2006, he would commit suicide.

But at least for the day, the rally is boosting TI spirits. Girard, in what for him is an ebullient mood, takes the microphone. A small crowd of tourists gathers at the sidelines, listening with casual interest. With the Capitol looming behind him, he reaches the crescendo of his speech, rallying the attendees to remember an important thing: They are part of a single community.

"I've heard it said, 'We can't get anywhere because everyone's story is different.' We are all the same," Girard booms. "You knew someone with the power to commit you to the electronic concentration camp system."

Several weeks after the rally, Girard shows up for a meeting with a reporter at the stately Mayflower Hotel in Washington, where he has stayed frequently over the two decades he has traveled to the capital to battle mind control. He walks in with a lit cigarette, which he apologetically puts out after a hotel employee tells him smoking isn't allowed anymore. He is half an hour late -- delayed, he says, by a meeting on Capitol Hill. Wearing a monogrammed dress shirt and tie, he looks, as always, serious and professional.

Girard declines to mention whom on Capitol Hill he'd met with, other than to say it was a congressional staffer. Embarrassment is likely a factor: Girard readily acknowledges that most people he meets with, ranging from scholars to politicians, ignore his entreaties or dismiss him as a lunatic.

Lately, his focus is on his Web site, which he sees as the culmination of nearly a quarter-century of research. When completed, it will contain more than 300 pages of documents. What next? Maybe he'll move to France (there are victims there, too), or maybe the U.S. government will finally just kill him, he says.

Meanwhile, he is always searching for absolute proof that the government has decoded the brain. His latest interest is LifeLog, a project once funded by the Pentagon that he read about in Wired News. The article described it this way: "The embryonic LifeLog program would dump everything an individual does into a giant database: every e-mail sent or received, every picture taken, every Web page surfed, every phone call made, every TV show watched, every magazine read. All of this -- and more -- would combine with information gleaned from a variety of sources: a GPS transmitter to keep tabs on where that person went, audiovisual sensors to capture what he or she sees or says, and biomedical monitors to keep track of the individual's health."

Girard suggests that the government, using similar technology, has "catalogued" his life over the past two years -- every sight and sound (Evelyn Waugh, in his mind-control book, writes about his character's similar fear that his harassers were creating a file of his entire life).

Girard thinks the government can control his movements, inject thoughts into his head, cause him pain day and night. He believes that he will die a victim of mind control.

Is there any reason for optimism?

Girard hesitates, then asks a rhetorical question.

"Why, despite all this, why am I the same person? Why am I Harlan Girard?"

For all his anguish, be it the result of mental illness or, as Girard contends, government mind control, the voices haven't managed to conquer the thing that makes him who he is: Call it his consciousness, his intellect or, perhaps, his soul.

"That's what they don't yet have," he says. After 22 years, "I'm still me."



The only thing "crazy" here is that Americans aren't pounding on the doors of their representatives, demanding accountability from a government, and now a press, that has a proven record of culpability.
“Question what’s real. Question who’s real. Trust your own discernment.”

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Patricia Davis
Senior Member
Username: patricia

Post Number: 11270
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 4:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Wow--I can't believe a major paper did this article--!!! Thank you so much for posting it, Thomas. I was especially struck by the assessment that his former-girlfriend the psychologist gave him--that's true that a super-late onset of psychosis is almost unheard of. But everyone who hears voices is accused of it, even if it didn't start until they were in their 40's. The voice I heard right before each MILAB was like that--it was a first and I had not a single other symptom of psychosis. But had I reported it, I'd have been put on powerful anti-psychotic drugs at the very least, because "everyone knows" that it's "tin-foil hat stuff" to hear a voice in connection with ongoing abductions by military personnel...right?!

And because I was honest about it online, I'm now being accused of being delusional--suffering from a mental illness--at the Black Vault message board. Again. That way of invalidating and discrediting me has been tried before there and they trot it out at intervals. I tell myself it's actually the only sincere and accurate measure of how much I'm annoying the Controllers.

The way the Bad Guys have it set up in this country, you simply cannot come out of the closet about this stuff without being prejudged, your character assassinated and your life turned upside down. It sucks. But the creeps only win if you give up, as Mr. Girard says
"I think it would be a good idea." Mahatma Gandhi, when asked what he thought of Western civilization ;o)
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Thomas
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Username: thomas_j_veil

Post Number: 6500
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 5:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

You're welcome, Patricia. In my most humble opinion, NONE of those people at the Black Vault has any business accusing you—or anyone else—of being "delusional."

My GOD…

I've never SEEN such a display (Although I will admit that my experience with message boards doesn't extend too far passed this one—which, given what I've seen at the Black Vault, is not likely to change much. ). In my opinion you are holding your own against some arrogant children, mean-spirited adults, and wannabee spooks, quite nicely.

In spite of the attacks, I think you are raising awareness.

You are much-admired "there" by many more than those who choose to speak up—and of course "here" by nearly everyone, some of which peak in "there" every now and then, just to see how you are and wish you well.
“Question what’s real. Question who’s real. Trust your own discernment.”

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Thomas
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Username: thomas_j_veil

Post Number: 6506
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 7:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

By the way, to anyone interested, Nick Begich will be on Coast To Coast AM tonight, discussing "mind control and manipulation."

The show starts at 10:00 PST, Nick will probably start at 11:00 PM.

quote:

Tue 01.16 >>
Author and researcher Nick Begich will discuss mind control and manipulation.
Additional site: layintitute.org



“Question what’s real. Question who’s real. Trust your own discernment.”

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Patricia Davis
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Username: patricia

Post Number: 11273
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 1:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Thank you, Thomas! I'm feeling much better after a 3 hour painting class during which The Painter was "out" and didn't think about MC *once*

Dr. Nick is the coolest guy--I heard him speak at the UFO Expo last year and it's so great to know that someone as intelligent and perceptive as him is looking hard at this problem. We need more people with real credentials to do that if we ever want to see the programs exposed. Survivors have been set up to have easily-destroyed credibility. The BV has been an excellent education in how many ways the honesty and candor of an activist survivor can be turned against them
"I think it would be a good idea." Mahatma Gandhi, when asked what he thought of Western civilization ;o)
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fortwynt
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Username: fortwynt

Post Number: 287
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 3:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

After reading in-depth into the assasination of RFK, plus reading what I have on here, I am definitely under the impression that this particular event was the result of Mind Control, which brings to mind many other situations that were probably this as well...I often wondered at the time if the DC sniper wasn't the "victim" of some sort of strange goings-on...could be wrong though I suppose.
"Be the change that you wish to see in the world"

--Ghandi
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Regina
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Username: rchante

Post Number: 868
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 12:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Thomas and Patricia,
I just read and saved that article from the Washington Post this morning. I felt like crying because i can't believe such evil courses through the veins of certain people to do this mind control activity. Their brains must be so warped and their emotions (if they have any) are so desensitized. I can only imagine they are the result of some horrific traumas themselves to be able to pull off such degrading and abusive activity. I so deeply felt for the man in the article (Girard). What a life, and what incredible loneliness he and others like him are having to experience. It's SO INCREDIBLY WRONG.

I will gladly support any initiatives these people are trying to bring to the table so that the American public will become aware of this very serious and very illegal activity. There will always be people who are clinically schizophrenic, but by no means does that undermine the truth of what's happening to these citizens who are not mentally impaired and whose rights are being utterly violated.
Hey I got an idea! Let's wake up!
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Thomas
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Username: thomas_j_veil

Post Number: 6524
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 2:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Regina said:

quote:

Thomas and Patricia,
I just read and saved that article from the Washington Post this morning. I felt like crying because i can't believe such evil courses through the veins of certain people to do this mind control activity.



That's because you're a good person. I think some good people have difficulty grasping that some others are so thoroughly opposite of themselves; this was my obstacle to accepting the reality of some of this.

Later, I realized that by my not accepting the reality of it—preferring rather to insulate myself and those that I love from such a bestial and indigestible truth—I was actually complicit in the culture of denial that allows these crimes to flourish.

That's when I changed my mind.
“Question what’s real. Question who’s real. Trust your own discernment.”

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Regina
Senior Member
Username: rchante

Post Number: 870
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 6:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Thomas said: "That's when I changed my mind."

What did you do in response to this change of mind, Thomas? What helps you?

I acknowledge it's existence, but i don't know what else to do with or about it, other than to listen to people with my heart and support them. It does leave one feeling helplesss, but i also think if we link together and form an ever-growing support group that it will help the truth come out for the masses to behold. I just don't know what other action to take. I also bless these perpetrators - which is much easier to do when i don't have to see them in action or be their prey. I have to believe they are the results of abuse themselves and have been left as 'damaged goods', so to speak, to have allowed themselves to fall to such sinister depths where hurting their fellow humans is thought of as entertaining.

I am very open to hearing and understanding how all of you folks are responding and what actions you take to address this violation of human dignity and freedom.
Hey I got an idea! Let's wake up!
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Thomas
Senior Member
Username: thomas_j_veil

Post Number: 6526
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 7:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Well, I'm still on a major learning curve, Regina. I am no expert, by any means. Listening to others, like Patricia Davis, has been an inspiration to me to find out more.

I too would like to know how best to raise awareness on this fundamental issue; right now, I'm concentrating on raising my own awareness first. Like you, I'd like to hear further ideas in this regard.
“Question what’s real. Question who’s real. Trust your own discernment.”

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Patricia Davis
Senior Member
Username: patricia

Post Number: 11278
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 10:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I'm glad that my practice of opening a vein over on the Witness thread has raised awareness of the trauma-based programs, Thomas. After being called horrible names and accused of being a liar and an attention seeker for doing the same thing at the Bleak Vault, I was wondering if it had all been worth it. So thank you for posting that validation.

Regina, the kind of person who perpetrates any form of mind control over another person is almost certainly a sociopath or a psychopath. At best they're malignant narcissists. No conscience, no empathy, no mercy. No humanity, in my opinion. We outnumber them, but their ruthlessness and willingness to do or say anything at all that gains them more power gives them a tremendous edge. To me, they're a cancer in our society--we ignore them at our peril.
"I think it would be a good idea." Mahatma Gandhi, when asked what he thought of Western civilization ;o)
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Thomas
Senior Member
Username: thomas_j_veil

Post Number: 6534
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 1:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

It's probably because I have been doing so much reading lately on the subject of mind control, that I've been dreaming about it too, even extensively. Last night, an interesting little man showed up in one of my dreams and said something like, "Do you realize that people who say, 'Thoughts are being put into my head by the Devil' are not said to be 'crazy,' just 'religious.' Somehow if the source of these thoughts comes from one of the sanctioned 'bad guys' in the control mechanism, that's just fine. But anybody else who says, 'Thoughts are being put into my head' by virtually any other source is considered by most to be insane."

How true. And how silly that this is so.

If some religious person claims "Satan" is pumping his/her mind full of all sorts of "temptations," that person is said to be normal, even "holy" at times. And yet there is no proof that any entity named "Satan" exists and is capable of doing anything remotely resembling that, even though such a tradition saying that he can has been around for centuries.

Conversely somewhat, even though there IS PROOF that the government of the United States pursued such technology (See Washington Post article above.) in order to beam "the voice of God" (or whomever else) directly into someone's head, people are considered "crazy" for reporting that it happened to them.

THAT's "crazy."

What's "crazy" is the way most people think about mind control, and dismiss all but the most arcane speculations, usually religious, for it's effects.
“Question what’s real. Question who’s real. Trust your own discernment.”

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Regina
Senior Member
Username: rchante

Post Number: 872
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 4:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

These postings are from a link at C2C regarding mind control experiments. How utterly bizarre our species is. I also wonder if any of you have had experience with the Monroe Institute's Hemi-Sync CD's, and if you have were they helpful, and would you think that they might make the user more vulnerable or more protected from mind invasion?
______________

In response to Tuesday's show on Mind Control as well as a recent article in the Washington Post, we asked targets of mind control or electronic harassment to share their experiences with us. Here are seven accounts:


This is not about me, but about an acquaintance of mine and her case is the most bizarre of which I have ever heard. It all began about 20 years ago. She was a music teacher working in a music store and was disturbed by some rowdy children, whom she politely asked to leave the store. The children returned minutes later with parents in tow and they threatened the teacher, then left. For the next six weeks or so, the teacher and her family began to experience threatening symbols that seem more related to voodoo than anything else! Then the food they ate tasted strange. The last straw was when the teacher would-when thinking about some things-get a blast of painful heat which she described as "like being from an electronic cattle prod."

At the suggestion of a local MUFON member, she purchased a Geiger counter and noted whether or not the counter showed any activity each time she was under attack. It DID and BIG TIME! She even got friends and neighbors to verify this! When she moved to Washington DC, she managed to get an FBI agent interested in it and for a few months it stopped altogether! He gave her some explanation that seemed to fit what was happening. But when the agent was out of the picture, the attacks continued.
--Patty



I am a single, white female. I just turned 50 years old this past Nov. I have seen, heard and experienced things my entire life, which set me on my spiritual quest when I was 12 years old and I have never stopped this quest. I am very used to the extraordinary, which would send most people over the edge.. So when I started hearing voices in my head in the late 80's I knew this was something new. These voices were mostly male, sometimes soft but sometimes loud and booming, screaming at me, mainly because I would argue with them and refuse to do the things they ordered me to do. I was told that I had to write this stuff down and keep good notes because I had to write a book about it. I refused to do that because I feared it would be used against me to lock me up. People broke into my house, killed my pets, messed with my car brakes. I heard footsteps on the roof of my house, voices outside my windows late at night. In 1993-94, I worked at the County Courthouse for a District Attorney. Many times when I went to work I would be having a conversation and someone would quote me word for word, something I had said the night before at home. I am leaving a lot out. This went on for a good 5 years. I still hesitate to give details. It was insane even though I know I am not crazy.

I am aware of the spiritual world around us, I am also aware of the government invasion that's going on. The voices stopped some 8 years ago and I'd like to believe it was my spiritual side that helped me because I told the "voices" that you can't have my mind so the only thing left would be to kill me (yes they tried) and if you kill me ....heard this!!! I will be free from my physical form and I will be coming after you...it stopped....but then again maybe it stopped because I wasn't much fun to play with. There's much, much more but I'll just close for now.
--Sharon



It's not just negative influence on people, I spontaneously receive bursts of very inventive thinking skills. Something I've never known before I will all of a sudden know deeply detailed, and sometimes even obtain vivid schematics on how to construct various items, and subjected to possible advertisements in sleep for big company inventions. Such as a "dream state teleconference" where you are invited to participate in unveiling of products due out soon for public release for the first time. Press conferences, techshows, and even accidental military intelligence interception. A carrier signal relaying information to wireless source, gave off a "feedback" response to a human mind with some kind of noise. Electromagnetic noise. Some people obviously more sensitive to this accidental noise exposure. Kind of a "binaural-frequency" response in the mind. Its quite an experience for sure, and its definitely not a crazy person subject, or schizophrenia.

When all good things come, bad things sure follow. Meaning that this subject in question is used for both positive influence of man, and negative destructive influence on specific groups of people. Whether it's a satellite in space, a radio transmission tower on the surface of earth, or even the impossible idea of a space ship, something is definitely able to migrate thoughts beyond the means of self influential monologue (your own inner thoughts). Now the real questions to be asking is, how to recreate the effect in a lab to determine its safety. Can it travel through walls? Upon exposure, is it instantaneous thought implementation, or does it tick like a clock until the alarm goes off. Does a whole room full of people get affected? Or are the results of exposure singular, based on age, health, race?

Is this phenomena even electronic in nature? Perhaps a parasite, bacteria, or chemical response in a common supply of everyday used items such as sodas and soaps? Whatever the results may be, I am convinced I produce thoughts other than my own from a 3rd party, or a separate form of consciousness yet to be analyzed. Able to collectively receive information outside of the usual human means of input (eyes, ears). Not many people are willing to even speak of this subject. Crazy Crazy crazy.
--Apollo-unplugged



This letter would get long winded if I went though all the things I've been targeted with. You can get a pretty good idea by searching Wikipedia's mkultra. This was going on 50 years ago, so even for the not-yet-targeted, it must be shocking to consider what they can do now. For the targeted it's mortifying. Really though, we're all victims first and second hand. There isn't some evil genius orchestrating this, it's not space aliens, it's pure human nature. We humans got to the evolutionary top by beating the other contestants and we're still doing it to each other. Without a profound change in our basic nature, I see no possible outcome other than a horrid slave state followed by extinction.

We do have an example to help guide us out though. It's the Amish and that's where I'm heading. I'm agnostic but I can see their lifestyle is the best possible choice in our mkultra world. I can see Jesus was right, the meek shall inherit the earth..if it isn't destroyed. A tight, hermetically sealed cottage of simple rectangular shape, a good wood furnace, and if you still want electricity, as I do, all dc appliances. The land has 25 different kinds of berries and you feed yourself with these and vegetables and maybe an animal for milk. It's really not that difficult and lots of people are already doing it.

One of the tricks of it is to have the money to buy everything you'll need before you jump in. Top of the line everything, the furnace, the furniture, the farming tools. Then you'll need 50-100 bucks a week to live comfortably and this means you're not going to be paying any taxes so you're doing the good work of no longer financially supporting our mkultra world. My final comment to anyone currently targeted; I implore you to love and not hate. The people who are doing these things to you are just as tied up into it as you are, they are victims too. We all are victims. Love and find a way to live.
--Paul R. herowithgreeneyesandbluejeans@yahoo.com



Inducted in the mid 1990's into an existence of daily visual and auditory "hallucinations", free thought and speech have been replaced by the whims of the "handlers". Sometimes wildly helpful, other times disturbingly unnecessary and border line cruel. After nearly 10 years or so of this my will to advance myself in any way has diminished. During college, my books seemed to be being read over my shoulder. My grades were excellent with little effort on my part, however the trade off was giving up any sense of ego. Instructed by some force to remove all "I"'s from my vocabulary, never tell a lie, be compassionate to the less fortunate, and even coerced into changing my sexual orientation(which didn't really take but angered me a lot), sensations of being pricked by needles in my sleep, a lot of weird looks and finger wagging from people never seen, extreme behavior modification type activities such as the sensation of simultaneously being penetrated in all my orifices.

From the beginning certain things I was told stick with me and help me. A voice said "you may be the only one who can do this", "you are going to think you are going crazy", "you can't tell anyone....because they will think you are crazy", "if you ever play music again, they'll kill you". Sometimes it feels unbearable, no privacy, not knowing how or why this is being done, every mistake magnified, any attempt at achievement squashed. The psychiatrist gave me pills that had no effect and collected his fee. At 40, my hope of resolving this intrusion into my brain has faded.
--John M.



These creeps have hit me with "directed energy weapons" via satellite. I know because I felt it and moved my car about fifty feet and in a few minutes they started hitting me again. I was by a gravel pit and the banked up dirt precluded being hit by a truck or grounded device. They have followed me from coast to coast and border to border. They stole my cat in Sommerton, AZ and returned her 19 months later in Jackson, OH. They anticipate where I'll be and wait for me. I was at a rest area in CA. When I awoke there was a man parked next to me who told me the name and location of a company that makes and sells a "gun" with which he has put "thoughts" into other peoples head. It was sufficiently involved explanation with no "holes" that I believe it. They put thoughts in my head that no one would think up to do himself.

I am on occultist and KNOW I am NOT insane. "They" have even sent in operatives to check me for being nuts. The last time she said "There's nothing wrong with your thinking ability". Because of the cat I know someone is paying these creeps to "play games" (as they put it) with me. If I didn't believe in Karma I'd play games with some of them.(I know who some of them are). I could write a small book of stories of their harassment of me beginning (in earnest) in 1996.
--John H.



Three years ago, I don’t know if it was luck or fate, but I bought my first house. I moved in June when it was hot, so I didn’t sleep well, even so I noticed some odd energy in the house. A Feng Shui practitioner later told me there was no negative energy from humans in the house, but that the house had a lot of natural Yang energy. So by luck or fate the house I bought is built over a collection of energy springs or vortexes. I am far from understanding the useable features of vortexes, but in connection to mind control I’ll relate an episode I had starting in Feb. of 2005.

At that time I was in the habit of waking up in the middle of the night occasionally to take advantage of the quiet ambience for meditation. One of these nights after meditation I decided to sleep in a recliner chair, which I positioned over one of the main energy apertures - just to see what would happen. Some time after falling asleep I suddenly became aware that I was in communication with someone. This was not like a dream. I was in an alert state of consciousness; disconnected from my body yet having enough consciousness to hold a two-way conversation with someone, again for emphasis not a dream state. I first noticed a presence in my mind and simply asked who are you? A voice responded by telling me he was a researcher in synthetic telepathy. (WHAT?) I was stunned that someone was talking to me in such a coherent way but somehow I managed to remain composed enough to the exchange. I asked him from where he was speaking to me. He said he from a lab at Princeton University. Again I was stunned, ‘What the hell?’ I fumbled trying to say, what are you using to do this, or how are you doing this? He said he was looking at a computer screen & reading the words in my thoughts. I asked how could you tell what I am thinking?

I detected a bit of amusement (somehow) on his part. He told me it was a machine that could pick up distant mental communications and reduce brainwaves to word signatures and that furthermore he could also detect emotions by the colors of the words on the screen!!! He asked who I was. I told him I was in (a certain field) and involved with (a certain technology). He said he knew about that, but there was something subtle in his response; like it was a nice idea but of little interest to him. He seemed to know about far superior technology. This was too strange. Here I was, my head hanging over the middle of an energy spot talking to someone at Princeton. At that point the needle just went off the record in terms of my ability to concentrate. I disconnected my consciousness; it was just too much for me to handle at once. In the morning the episode stayed with me and I recalled everything clearly. I just thought it was one of the weirdest dreams I had ever had. But then a day later my curiosity got the better of me so I Googled Princeton University and psychic research and came up with PEAR - Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research-- to say I was flabbergasted when I read this is an understatement, but I quickly found it is but the tip of an iceberg.

For the record, I had no prior knowledge of the activities of Princeton University, nor have I ever been any further east than New Mexico. I never even knew that something like this was possible. On impulse I decided to write to the project manager and tell of my experience with one of his research associates and to make sure his people communicate with respect. I never received a reply from him, but a week later I tried the same experiment and sure enough a hailing frequency was opened again. This time I distinctly felt two younger individuals, probably graduate students. They were attempting to engage me in a protocol of some kind - a kind of remote viewing survey questionnaire. I sensed some confusion from them. In retrospect they may have been expecting someone else on the other end of the line. They were asking me questions about my location, my name, what I did etc. Their attempt was either clumsy or very confused. I answered a few questions, but became irritated at their seeming ineptness and terminated.

A few days later I tried again and yes I got someone else on the line, this time it seemed to be an experienced military or intelligence type who was initially engaging but then I began to sense duplicity and basically told him to **** off. A second or so went by and I was about to metaphorically turn my back on him, when all of a sudden his face appeared to me not more then 3 feet away! (within the mental-spatial construct of the event) He was not amused at my flip comment and showed it. He was a very shorthaired or possibly bald middle-aged white man, clean-shaven with a medium heavy-set face and a bit of a ruddy complexion. He was looking at me like a stern father getting ready to punish a willful child. It shocked me that I could actually see the face of a stranger in such surprising detail.

Another week went by and I tried out of curiosity again, this time I was talking to a woman who was very smooth, she got my name, where I lived and whatever else she wanted because her voice was non-threatening and I was probably at the same time being entrained to be passive and compliant. I reason if they can transmit voices and images, they can also transmit any kind of other signal – music, information and even brain entrainment frequencies - similar to those brain wave oriented CDs and tapes. The effects of mental entrainment would be particularly enhanced by using this direct to brain modality. Free thinkers can imagine what kind of use this could be put to!

I have since stayed away from further experiments with this lot. I think in retrospect that they were clueless as to how I could be tuning into their channel. The only thing I can liken it to is some kind of signal drift like you might encounter on AM channels at night due to atmospheric or solar activity (or lack thereof). My best guess is that it may be related to several lines of government research not the least of which are ULF operations that the Navy uses to communicate with submarines.

--Edvardo
____________________
Hey I got an idea! Let's wake up!
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Thomas
Senior Member
Username: thomas_j_veil

Post Number: 6600
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Sunday, January 21, 2007 - 8:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Very, very spooky stuff, Regina.

As I've been researching mind control, I ran across this. It's by Martin Cannon, the author of the book, The Controllers, who seems to have "disowned" his theory that UFO abductions are the work of humans in our midsts, rather than aliens.

Since I have seen quite a bit of logic in this idea—at least in some cases—I am surprised, to say the least.


quote:

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 02:11:56 -0800
From: Martin Cannon <mcannon@thorin.XXXXXXX.com>
To: webmaster@XXXXXXX.com
Subject: Message from Martin Cannon

Is there any way you could remove my name from your list of ufologists? I am out of the field. I have disowned the theory outlined in my work "The Controllers," and have requested everyone carrying the piece on the web to remove it. That damned thing has caused nothing but trouble.

If you can't remove my name, at least be good enough to inform your readers that I have changed my tune. Frankly, UFO buffs and conspiracy nuts kind of make me feel ill these days. I am SO damned sick of always being called an "agent"...

Thanks,
MJC



Beyond what is said here, does anyone have any insights into what caused Martin Cannon to "change his tune"?

[NOTE: Other than slightly obscuring the email addresses, this is taken verbatim from the website on which it was posted.]
“Question what’s real. Question who’s real. Trust your own discernment.”

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Patricia Davis
Senior Member
Username: patricia

Post Number: 11282
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 5:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I read on a mind control board that he was threatened by some of the Controllers themselves, but the person had no proof--just a posting from another board about it, so it's third-hand at best.

My own thoughts on his about-face is that the hear-say is correct in this case. Cannon's specialty is writing about the intelligence community and he has many informants within the CIA, NSA, etc. My guess is that he was given a "shut up or else" type threat when he published "The Controllers" and backed off to protect himself and his ability to earn a living.

*Remember* the same thing happened to the author of the Greenbaum Speech right after he made it--he'd exposed to a professional audience the inside knowledge he had of mind control/SRA and angry spooks came swarming out of the woodwork and threatened his family if he didn't shut up.

Also, Cannon's revelations have been independently confirmed by mind control survivors like Kathleen Sullivan, who now has gotten beneath the faked alien abduction memories and clearly recalls her handler father programming her with them. Mauri, the SRA survivor who put up the Reflections in the Night website remembers playing an alien in costume (as a child) so that survivors could be programmed with alien abduction memories by the Cult she grew up inside. The only reason she's talking now is that her autism prevented the programming from working on her

I'm jet-lagged and having problems composing posts and adding links, but I always have my link to The Controllers handy. If for no other reason, I know that it is a significant chunk of information due to the fact that an alter of mine printed out the entire manuscript and hid the big stack of papers behind reference books in my art studio for me to find years later, covered with dust.
"I think it would be a good idea." Mahatma Gandhi, when asked what he thought of Western civilization ;o)
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Thomas
Senior Member
Username: thomas_j_veil

Post Number: 6956
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 8:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I hope those who are interested in mind control have had the opportunity to watch last week's LOST. In one scene, a new character was seen undergoing what looked to me like a "psychic driving" scenario, or a more modern version of it as was introduced by the vile (and unfortunately non-fictional) Dr. Ewen Cameron, more than forty years ago (1957-1964).

Ever since I started watching LOST—almost from the very beginning—I suspected that our characters weren't the people they thought they were, that they had been "depatterned" and then given new identities, believing themselves to be survivors of a plane crash with rich histories they never actually lived.

Now I may still be wrong about that, but LOST's entire character-based format, including Wednesday's episode—and the "psychic driving" scene in it—leads me to suspect not.

I mention this here, because if I'm right LOST will be one of the comparatively few dramas on television to deal with "mind control" in a big way—joining the ranks of other notable exceptions as The Prisoner and Nowhere Man.
“Question what’s real. Question who’s real. Trust your own discernment.”

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Patricia Davis
Senior Member
Username: patricia

Post Number: 11381
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 12:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I can't wait to see that episode! It's backed up on TiVo with the rest of my TV life at present.

The Skeptic and I were huge fans of the series "Firefly", but when I went to see the movie "Serenity" I was stunned by the opening scenes of the telepathic girl in a *mind control lab*--! Somehow, in the series, I'd either missed or blocked memory of that part of her interesting past. But the entire story made MUCH more sense to me once that sunk in.

"LOST" is being done by intelligent people, so I have high hopes that if the ultimate secret behind the island IS mind control, that they'll not dodge telling it.

And now I'm falling asleep--more tomorrow
"The puppet thinks: It's not so much what they make me do, as their hands inside me..." Charles de Lint
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Stephen in AZ
Senior Member
Username: stephenm

Post Number: 1198
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 9:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Stopping by...
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n'kisi
Advanced Member
Username: nkisi

Post Number: 240
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 10:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Though I do not recall reading this term on this site .. today the words 'psychic driving' kept running around inside so tonight I checked it out on the net then did a search by key word on the board to get to here..

Here's a link
A look at the law and government mind control through five cases.
http://members.aol.com/smartnews/fivecases.htm

"TO ERASE OR 'DE-PATTERN' PERSONALITY TRAITS, CAMERON GAVE HIS SUBJECTS MEGADOSES OF LSD, SUBJECTED THEM TO DRUG-INDUCED "SLEEP THERAPY" FOR UP TO 65 CONSECUTIVE DAYS AND APPLIED ELECTROSHOCK THERAPY AT 75 TIMES THE USUAL INTENSITY. TO SHAPE NEW BEHAVIOR, CAMERON FORCED THEM TO LISTEN TO REPEATED RECORDED MESSAGES FOR 16-HOUR INTERVALS, A TECHNIQUE KNOWN AS 'PSYCHIC DRIVING,'
CAMERON AND THE CIA WERE INTERESTED IN BRAINWASHING AND THE ABILITY TO REDIRECT THOUGHT AND ACTION. THE PATIENTS DID NOT CONSENT TO THE TREATMENT AND WERE NEVER TOLD THEY WERE BEING USED FOR RESEARCH". Congressional Record - Senate, 99th Cong. 1st Session, Volume 131 No. 106, Part 2, 131 Cong. Rec. S. 11008 quoting The Experiments of Dr. D. Ewen Cameron, Washington Post July 28, 1985
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Thomas
Senior Member
Username: thomas_j_veil

Post Number: 7874
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 12:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Ewan Cameron was a monster.

And lest anyone think that his MK-ULTRA project was just a "blip" on the radar screen, a one-time anomaly, Ewan Cameron was also the President of the American Psychiatric Association.

He was establishment.

And so were the more than 150 other research projects around the United States and in Canada, sponsored by MK-ULTRA and related CIA programs. The sheer viciousness of Ewan Cameron was well distributed among other psychiatrists and psychiatric institutions; I cannot imagine that this has changed particularly. I cannot imagine why anyone would presume that it did—more likely it was merely driven "underground" so to speak.

In fact, if survivors are to be believed—and surely most of them must be—much of this and more continues to this very day.
"The science of the sacred uses not 'belief' but 'The Question' as its instrument. The more powerful 'The Question,' the deeper the insight."

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Patricia Davis
Senior Member
Username: patricia

Post Number: 11657
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 2:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

This "poisoning of the well" of psychology/psychiatry/therapy is persisting today. I know of a couple of boards full of DID/MPD survivors of ritual abuse and mind control who have been forced to see up to a dozen therapists before finding one who would even believe that they WERE multiples! They were misdiagnosed over and over again with a whole laundry list of other, establishment-approved mental/emotional disorders AND medicated for them, right into drugged silence and helplessness.

That is a tragedy. Cameron's evil legacy will persist as long as the public remains ignorant of the mind control programs. Some of the original MKULTRA doctors are still alive and they do not want their illustrious professional careers to end in disgrace and federal prison terms.

And they've spawned many proteges who are currently carrying on the mind control research under the cover of what are called Special Access Programs over which there is almost no oversight at all. The most egregious human rights-abusing projects are now hidden deep in the Private Sector, in industry where not even all the stockholders of the corporations have knowledge of them. But some of them are "insiders" and know exactly what goes on in carefully secured, limited-access company labs.

I was unfortunate to have survived MKULTRA in time to still be young and marketable enough to be sold as a commodity between wealthy businessmen who WERE in the know, so I know whereof I speak. After the Church Committee hearings on MKULTRA, after CIA Director Helms had destroyed what he hoped were all the documents on the trauma-based programs, most human guinea pigs were transferred to the private industry-run programs, cut loose to fend for themselves or their alters were sold off to the highest bidder. How many died or became drug-addicted and homeless will probably never be known. Please do not assume that very many of them ended up like me--they did not. I was extraordinarily lucky.

Now and then an article like the one n'kisi quotes above surfaces on a major media outlet, but it's always treated as if it's "all in the past" and all those nasty, misguided programs have been stopped LONG since....Yeah, right!
"The puppet thinks: It's not so much what they make me do, as their hands inside me..." Charles de Lint
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n'kisi
Advanced Member
Username: nkisi

Post Number: 242
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 4:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Pat I have no doubt at all that what was spawned in the 30's,40's 50's 60's still goes on but hold onto the hope that amongst the 'professionals' there are those who are having their own spiritual experiences
and are prepared to speak out will step forward and lift the lid on pandora's box.
I've met a few in inhouse discussions that I participated in some years ago ( I was the X factor meaning invited to add that element to the discussions lol ).
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Patricia Davis
Senior Member
Username: patricia

Post Number: 11661
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, April 06, 2007 - 6:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I hope that too, n'kisi, I really do. There are good people EVERYWHERE. Even if some of them get trapped into working for the Bad Guys while still in school, I suspect that, as they mature, some of them figure out just how completely ethically indefensible the programs are and either quietly leave (assuming they're allowed to do that) or even perhaps try in their own ways to work against them from within.

There are survivors who speak of such a "5th column" of programmers who install recording alters to keep precise records of everything that's been done to a test subject. Their aim is said to be to commit long-term sabotage by having that alter surface decades later and "out" the perps.

What sort of "house" were you in that had "inhouse discussions with perp types? If I may ask?
"The puppet thinks: It's not so much what they make me do, as their hands inside me..." Charles de Lint
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n'kisi
Advanced Member
Username: nkisi

Post Number: 243
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 7:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Patricia what I am going to do here is gracefully bow out of these threads to do with mind control
simply because I do not have any experience of that side of the field at all or at least not from the American perspective.
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Patricia Davis
Senior Member
Username: patricia

Post Number: 11668
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 4:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

That's your choice, n'kisi. You at least don't mis-read my words and then beat me over the head with the 'new, improved' version, and for that I am grateful. But if you ever decide to talk about what sounds like a well-intentioned 5th column within the professional MC community, please do share in one of the MC threads. Some of us would give almost anything for a bit of good news at this point.
"The puppet thinks: It's not so much what they make me do, as their hands inside me..." Charles de Lint
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n'kisi
Advanced Member
Username: nkisi

Post Number: 247
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 2:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Patricia perhaps I have given you the wrong impression there so to clarify yes you could term such people as fifth column 'academics or professionals' who have individually and then collectively noticed the cracks in the foundations and are busily exploring them.
I'd tend to view the controllers that you've encountered as the Shadow and the people I met up with as the Light.
And where the latter do exist then there is that ray of hope.
Additionally it seems to me that controller types cannot exist where there is light
therefore the subject of mind control in the frames discussed here on this site wasnt tabled at all..it simply isnt in their part of the field if that makes sense.
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firestarter
Intermediate Member
Username: firestarter

Post Number: 104
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 7:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I'm very thankful for this discussion, though I am a mild case of mind control, a friend of mine was a victim of ritual abuse and mind control.
I had a dream about her the night before last that was horrid. She walked up to me naked gave me an empty hug and sat down and blew her head off....I saw fragments of her head everywhere. So, on the phone to call my dear friend (we only send x mas cards back and forth and an occasional "thinking of you" cards.)
We had a great talk and felt each other out on the surface but we are having lunch next Sunday.
It's a wonder she is able to live the way she does....she does well.

Just "Thanks" for talking about this.
"Who knows?" "We'll see."
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Patricia Davis
Senior Member
Username: patricia

Post Number: 11675
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 1:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

n'kisi, I think I get what you're saying about it not being part of the people's field--that's one of the most daunting problems with getting qualified people to look squarely at the issue of mind control--it's been stuck with a snicker factor label that keeps 99.9% of all academics and scientists from seriously investigating it.

But what you said about the light would not be understood by the Controllers, since they are strongly Luciferian and see themselves as "lightbearers".

firestarter, I'm so glad that you're meeting with your friend soon. I would take such a dream as possibly being a warning that she may be in a Bad Place on some level. I figure it's better to over-react than not to react at all when an endangered person's safety is concerned. It's not easy to be a friend to one of us, since we're usually multiple personalitied and can be difficult to deal with on our bad days, so you have my admiration for sticking with the friendship and supporting her.

I know of a board where RA survivors congregate--it's private and has a modest subscription fee to keep out the hecklers. If you think she might need support from other survivors, PM me and I'll send you the URL for the site.

You say you have "a mild case of mind control" and that made me smile--it sounds like one of those 24 hour flu bugs that make a person grateful to have escaped the 10-day variety! If it's not too painful, could you talk about your own experience with mind control? (and I will understand if you decline--it's not a pleasant thing to think about, let alone to write about online)
"The puppet thinks: It's not so much what they make me do, as their hands inside me..." Charles de Lint
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firestarter
Intermediate Member
Username: firestarter

Post Number: 107
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 9:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Tell me if I'm wrong.....
Is this what a victim of mind control would do?
A victim is lifeless. sucked dry, the person sucking is waiting watching for any sign of life to kill it. The victim one day finds a treasure, a treasure that would fill them full of life but instead of even thinking of keeping it, walks to the controler and just hands it over to them.
If the contoler told the victim to kill herself, they would, even to imply the victim should kill themself they start out to try to do it.
Telling me I was the product of rape was just the beginning (age6?). The only purpose of this was to begin the tear down phase. Touch was withheld, while I watched the other two children adhored.
Cinderella?
lol, perhaps, and just like Cinderella, it took the visit from a shaman from the Spirit world to teach me how to take back my power.
My Siblings got in on the game, watched and imitated it.
You couldnt blame them....they saw what could happen to them as well.
They wanted to play with the strings that held my life.
24 hr flu bug....LOL! Mine lasted until I was about 25-30 yrs old.
Once, I showed the marks all over my body to a counselor.
When my friends told me to.
Nothing happened.
I once took an overdose of midol, ya young, but I was oh so sick, and my Mom knew it, that I had taken the overdose and she just watched me suffer, never said, anything like, you shouldnt try to kill yourself.
In mind conrtol is it the things that arent said, that are?

I'm really looking forward to seeing Debbie this coming Sunday.
We really feel like Sisters.
Survivors.
I was in AA with her for 12 yrs. I needed the time there but, am free to drink now if I want, but usually it gives me a headache so I don't.
The only thing that has control of me is cigs.
But, I have a severe case of PTSD.
I see horrible images out of no where.
The things I have come to "have" and love are killed/dead.
I didn't dare love or have my children, afraid they would end up dead. I had to give them away for their lifes sake. Looking back now....at what happened....it's all hard to swallow. It is unbelievable. When I left the hospital I was told by the father of my Daughter, I could have her, given PERMISSION to have her and so I went to the hospital and got her....I didnt keep her for long though.....Mom took her from me as I became more and more addicted to drugs and alcohol.

There were two people I loved, my Ma Lewis and my step Dad Geno. When Ma died, my Mom was crying and I asked what was wrong and she said, "Ma died, GO TO SCHOOL!"
Like a robot I did.
When I came home from school one day Mom was tearing up mine and Genos flower garden, I asked, what she was doing and she said "Genos GONE!".
Like a robot, I just walked in the house.
Ya, I could relate to "Mommy Dearest".
Also, I had a Aunt I loved most of all and when she died, I was not allowed to go to the funeral, had to stay home and take care of my Moms feelings. I named my Daughter after her.
Marie.
My siblings were only allowed to go.
When I was young though, I was given an angel....she put something inside of me that was my own.
I shared it with no one.
I told no one.
My Mom fell in love with my first born and so I gave him to her.
Besides, I "OWED" her everything that I could only imagine to be good.
I've been very harshly judged by others.
As someone who didnt care.

I know she got me....got me good....and the best.
I live with that.
Having lost so much.
It's hard to live with losing some sort of big Spiritual battle.
But, I'm learning how to turn loses into victories.
I think of the wars going on now in the world when it comes to this....US(A) :-) is making others very strong.
I have very large lots of time loss in my life.
Still to this day.

Well, ya uncomfortable to talk about online, afraid still of the judgements.
Mind controle is a hard one to PROVE.

We have our stories like Whitley for a reason.
We are not alone.
And, I have a feeling it is impossible to help someone out of mind control.
They have to find their own power?
Their own way out?
Don't ya have to replace one mind control for another to recover?
Or devine intervention?
"Who knows?" "We'll see."
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Patricia Davis
Senior Member
Username: patricia

Post Number: 11684
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 3:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Thank you for sharing that--I could feel the pain it must have caused you to type it out as I read it It's very, very difficult, if not impossible, to look at a victim of lifelong abuse and determine for certain if they were victimized by a cult or a government MC program or by sick, twisted private citizens acting out their own damage. Or by all three.

But you have what I think of as "the profile" for having been in a program. It also fits people who've been unfortunate enough to be born into an intergenerationally abusive family, though. The Controllers figured out really early that kids from those families made perfect little MC test subjects and not only recruited them through the abusive parents, but also paid some of the parents to have more babies for them. I know that sounds utterly crazy, but too many survivors have reported it for it to be imaginary.

So you see how much cross-fertilization (no pun intended) went on in the early days of the US government programs. Sorting out who is which now is next to impossible.

Can anyone be saved and deprogrammed by others? I honestly don't know the answer to that question. Certainly some survivors *believe* that they've been saved, but now when I look at their accounts, I wonder if they didn't just trade one handler for another one. Cathy O'Brien is the perennial poster child for that MC situation, but others may be being exploited more subtly too.

And your comment about how some of them "replace one mind control for another to recover" is very accurate--many turn to another rigid belief structure instinctively. Is that pathological? Guess it depends on the new structure and how benign it is. To me, all dogmatic structures (including New Age groups) are intrinsically flawed and should be avoided. But then I look at the comfort that other survivors of abuse get (from Fundie Christianity in several cases) and I realize that I have nothing else to offer to them that would be as supportive...well, I shut up and try to be glad for them that they've found solace. Unless I see the signs that they've gone from the frying pan into the fire.

I too was labeled by my family as "one who didn't care". And the label still persists, even though it was as untrue and unfair half a century ago as it is now. Somehow, my family needed me to be their scapegoat. When people are in denial and not being honest with themselves, there is always stress and that stress has to find an outlet. If we happen to be in some way vulnerable, then we become the focus of others' self-hatred projected unwittingly.

And a vulnerable, PTSDed, DID/MPDed person is exactly what the trauma-based MC programs were seeking out for decades here in the US and in all the western nations closely allied with us.

I believe that you're correct too about why so many of us have ended up here at Whitley's site and not at other abductee sites. In his writing we found a specific resonance that was missing in many other abductees' stories. We responded to it without any understanding of what it was and congregated here. When this many damaged people gather in one place, you can bet the result will be volatile, hence the recent flaming of the MC survivors. It's part of the price of not being alone anymore, to me. I pay it even when it hurts because I remember all the years when I had no one to listen to me....that was worse.

I hope you're able to really enjoy your time with your survivor friend, too--I treasure the time I get to spend with people who believe me and know my awful past and love me anyway. I'm perennially surprised by their affection
"The puppet thinks: It's not so much what they make me do, as their hands inside me..." Charles de Lint
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firestarter
Intermediate Member
Username: firestarter

Post Number: 108
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Monday, April 09, 2007 - 5:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I have only just started reading Whitley.
His first book I got is "the key" and am enjoying it very much, though only half way through it.
I was glad I guess to share my account, briefly, and in general.
It's always good to purge, for the right reasons and in the right situation.
Glad this seems to be a safe place to think about the larger questions.

You take care!

Karen
"Who knows?" "We'll see."
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firestarter
Intermediate Member
Username: firestarter

Post Number: 110
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 8:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Just had a memory .... when I was young, about 6? my Mom was a nurse.
I was sick, I was told, and she gave me shots every day in the butt.
Thinking back, would that have been permitted?
A nurse to give her children shots at home?
I remember my step dad was a mushroom hunter and brought home a bad bunch....we were all SOooooooo sick! Had to go to the hospital.
The nurse there turned me over and said, are you ready? "I said, ya, my Mom does this to me all the time". She then put a soposatory (sp?) in to stop the vomiting.....Opps..I explained, "no she gave me shots, thought you were giving me a shot"
My Mom held my brother over fire once for playing with fire...whatever....anyway, I watched in horror as she was able to hold him while he screamed.
I remember confronting her once as I began AA, needing to talk about the freakin elephant in the living room. She got really upset and called my brother asked him if she did this and was told his responce was "no"...and told me if I ever mentioned it agian, she'd get me for slander!?

Shew!
Back to work today after being off for a week on vacation.
It was nice......redecorated my whole kitchen!
"Who knows?" "We'll see."
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fortwynt
Senior Member
Username: fortwynt

Post Number: 1313
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 11:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I know i was the victim of MC for most of my life, at the hands of my mother though not some government sponsered sort or anything.

I was made to feel she was the victim of everyone else, my "stupid" father (who never did anything wrong as far as i can tell but worked his life away for her while she sat on her rear end)for one....plus at a very young age I was taken away from my family (where we live, our family mainly lives in one area and we moved away from that area when I was just young) because apparently my mom felt that they were a bad influence on me, so basically i grew up never really knowing my family....I was NEVER allowed to know what was really going on in the house, how bad financially we really were, or why it was we had to move roughly every 1 1/2 - 2 years or so.....from the ages of 0-20 years I probably lived in around 15 or so houses, which means I never had any friends (at all)...

so in essence my mother caused me to grow up completely alone (except for her), except for my only "friends" who were a couple of cousins i knew since childhood....i spent years virtually isolated from the outside world and other family members besides her and my father (who worked a lot so i never really got to know him either)....and it is only now that I am an adult that i am starting to fully realize just what kind of damage this all caused me....so that's my mind control story....it took me literally years of pain, depression, and loneliness to really get my head in order and be strong enough to be independent, and im still not very good at it.
...no matter how much fame or success they obtain, there will never be another me, and no matter what they do there will never be another you...

Eminem
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psyrinity
Member
Username: psyrinity

Post Number: 95
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 12:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I've heard that it is in the dark night of the soul in which we learn to love as god loves...

That's probably not the exact quote, but ya get the idea!
Let us not look back in anger or forward in fear, but around in awareness. James Thurber
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Patricia Davis
Senior Member
Username: patricia

Post Number: 11697
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 1:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

As a nearly constant dweller in those Dark Nights of the Soul for most of my life, I'm here to tell ya that there's GOT to be a better way. To me, the religions and the spiritual belief systems that try to tell us that it's "all for our own good" are disseminating the Controllers' message and striving to keep us accepting, passive and pliant.

fortwynt makes a good point--what has been institutionalized by the government mind control programs has actually been happening within dysfunctional families forever. They took what best served their purposes, analyzed it and then used it much more efficiently on their own test subjects. But it began in the family and in the tribe, uncounted thousands of years ago--the strong preyed upon the weak and the priests upheld the power of the strong.
"The puppet thinks: It's not so much what they make me do, as their hands inside me..." Charles de Lint
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Thomas
Senior Member
Username: thomas_j_veil

Post Number: 7970
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 2:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Suffering is no sure way to anything—except continued suffering. I, therefore, do not recommend it.

Ecstasy too opens the doors to spiritual perception. Amazingly western spirituality embraces suffering, of almost every variety imaginable as a path to enlightenment, while ecstasy is labeled as almost "dirty."

I'm done with the "dark night"—on with the day!
"The science of the sacred uses not 'belief' but 'The Question' as its instrument. The more powerful 'The Question,' the deeper the insight."

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fortwynt
Senior Member
Username: fortwynt

Post Number: 1323
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 8:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

i know that i would never have reached the understanding i have now had i not suffered, at times very much so, so i can't trash suffering too much....its just a hard thing to talk about, because obviously one doesn't want to say that suffering is OK even if it achieves good ends, I would never say that, but the truth is it DOES have it's far reaching character building effects....trauma and severe sufferring definitely is something that either destroys you or makes you infinitely wiser....do i think that the same thing could be achieved WITHOUT suffering, possibly, but it's hard to say really, i just know that someone who goes through a bunch of f-ed up sh*t, tends to be far more wiser about the world than the one who has been pampered and coddled all their lives...know what I mean?...all I know is that I know far too many people who thank god when the good things happen, but when the bad things happen say "why god, why me, god must hate me, there must not be a god", etc...the truth is, one should thank god even for the bad things, because without the bad one would never know the difference between the bad and the good....

does this mean one should be happy to be brutalized, absolutely not, but the brutalization should be seen as a motivator to be stronger and cause one to be more demanding of change...

a real grey area sometimes.
...no matter how much fame or success they obtain, there will never be another me, and no matter what they do there will never be another you...

Eminem
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Patricia Davis
Senior Member
Username: patricia

Post Number: 11700
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 9:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I do sometimes say to myself, "That which does not kill me makes me stronger" and I believe that that's the effect that most of the abuses that occurred during my adulthood have had. But those that happened when I was a kid have definitely very adversely affected me. No 5 year old should think longingly of suicide but be unable to remember why. No one should be saddled with terrible depression or almost non-existent self esteem for over half a century, either.

It just sucks that our society is so badly screwed up that adults can brutalize and exploit children in what is supposed to be such an "advanced" society.
"The puppet thinks: It's not so much what they make me do, as their hands inside me..." Charles de Lint
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fortwynt
Senior Member
Username: fortwynt

Post Number: 1325
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 9:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

that's the problem...we think we are advanced because we have ipods, mtv, quantum physics, the internet, and the space shuttle, but in reality we are still the same old "5 year old trying to drive a car" (i stole that from someone else on the board)....some of us, granted, have learned to change the oil and some have even managed to get our license but we are still a bit away from being able to overhaul the engine.
...no matter how much fame or success they obtain, there will never be another me, and no matter what they do there will never be another you...

Eminem
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Thomas
Senior Member
Username: thomas_j_veil

Post Number: 7980
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 10:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I don't think there has been enough widespread thought given to how destructive "the Redeemer Complex" has been to this civilization. Because we have been taught that suffering has value—in and of itself—many have not considered other options.

There are other options, and I think they should be explored before considering, as many religionists do for example, that suffering is sufficient—or even required.

I don't think it is.
"The science of the sacred uses not 'belief' but 'The Question' as its instrument. The more powerful 'The Question,' the deeper the insight."

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fortwynt
Senior Member
Username: fortwynt

Post Number: 1334
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 11:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

but surely you can't deny that suffering heightens awareness of certain aspects of the world around you?...i mean im all for eliminating suffering in as many ways as possible, but again had i lead a cushy lifestyle free of all suffering I would have never been able to understand certain realities about existence that suffering has given me...i suspect many intellgent and wise people here ARE intelligent and wise DUE to the their suffering, not in spite of it.
...no matter how much fame or success they obtain, there will never be another me, and no matter what they do there will never be another you...

Eminem
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fortwynt
Senior Member
Username: fortwynt

Post Number: 1335
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 11:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

not saying that "suffering" per se did that i guess, but "toughness" of life maybe....i mean I would think that the poor man tilling the earth to feed his family understands reality far better than the rich ceo who has a PHD in this or that...not NECESSARILY but that's how I see it.
...no matter how much fame or success they obtain, there will never be another me, and no matter what they do there will never be another you...

Eminem
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Thomas
Senior Member
Username: thomas_j_veil

Post Number: 7983
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 12:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I see your point, Forwynt, but I'm not sure you're seeing mine.

Almost everyone in our civilization sees value in suffering; that's relatively easy—this is what we've been trained and indoctrinated to see, after all. And we've been trained to see it that way because suffering is a very inefficient way for humans to learn and develop spiritually.

For those who stand to lose by our development, a focus on suffering as THE means of choice holds many advantages.

A hammer can open a bottle of wine, but wouldn't a corkscrew be preferred?
"The science of the sacred uses not 'belief' but 'The Question' as its instrument. The more powerful 'The Question,' the deeper the insight."

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fortwynt
Senior Member
Username: fortwynt

Post Number: 1337
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 12:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

well i agree that a different approach to growth, understanding and development would be preferred, but isn't there a certain pride one feels in having gone through suffering, survived, and grown stronger? I mean I like the wine bottle analogy, but IS there any other way?

Let's say we could eliminate ALL suffering right now with a wave of the hand, then yes continuing in that vein would be preferred, but I think currently one who goes through suffering better understands and empatizes with others who go through hardships and suffering, whereas one who doesnt, doesnt and cant. I would have it that that NO ONE HAD to go through any suffering for someone else to have to suffer to empathize with (hmm maybe thats confusing lmao).

In other words, what is our corkscrew, if not the hammer?

I know where I come from, we have much pride in who we are as a people who are directly defined by our history of suffering, poverty, hardship, and sacrifice...this makes people VERY proud of this place even though others would come in and see it as "hillbilly" and "backwards", people are just very proud of what "little" we do have here, where someone who comes from a place that wasn't really like that historically has no appreciation of that facet of existence.

I want all peoples suffering to be eliminated, but how? And what to replace it with to teach them the fundamental lessons in life?
...no matter how much fame or success they obtain, there will never be another me, and no matter what they do there will never be another you...

Eminem
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Thomas
Senior Member
Username: thomas_j_veil

Post Number: 7987
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 12:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Pride is no virtue; it is a vice. One of the seven deadliest "sins," as I remember.
"The science of the sacred uses not 'belief' but 'The Question' as its instrument. The more powerful 'The Question,' the deeper the insight."

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fortwynt
Senior Member
Username: fortwynt

Post Number: 1340
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 12:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

eh, i don't pay much attention to the "sins" "list" necessarily.

So being proud of oneself or ones struggle is a deadly sin?

I see pride CAN be a sin if it surpasses logic and makes one feel better than someone else...but otherwise I think it is a good thing.
...no matter how much fame or success they obtain, there will never be another me, and no matter what they do there will never be another you...

Eminem
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fortwynt
Senior Member
Username: fortwynt

Post Number: 1341
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 12:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

getting "puffed up" with it is the danger i think.
...no matter how much fame or success they obtain, there will never be another me, and no matter what they do there will never be another you...

Eminem
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Thomas
Senior Member
Username: thomas_j_veil

Post Number: 7990
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 12:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I'll agree to disagree with you, Fortwynt. I have nothing to gain by attempting to "convince" you or anyone else, and only precious time to lose.
"The science of the sacred uses not 'belief' but 'The Question' as its instrument. The more powerful 'The Question,' the deeper the insight."

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fortwynt
Senior Member
Username: fortwynt

Post Number: 1342
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 1:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

well no, i dont disagree necessarily thomas in your main point. but i just want you to explain how having pride in oneself or people or where one came from could possibly be bad for someone? unless one is "puffed up" with so much of it that it is detrimental to others....as i understand it, all "sin" is simply excess....whether its lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy, or pride ... in fact, as it seems to me, all things called "sin" stem from the obsession with "self" as opposed to being focused more on providing for the needs of others....to me pride is sin only when (like any "sin") it becomes "puffed up" or we become full of it so to speak...in that way I think ANYTHING can be sin but isn't necessarily in and of itself.

anyway

I don't really disagree with you, I just want you explain what you mean further.
...no matter how much fame or success they obtain, there will never be another me, and no matter what they do there will never be another you...

Eminem
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fortwynt
Senior Member
Username: fortwynt

Post Number: 1352
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 3:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

*sigh*

thomas and I just don't seem to agree as much these days.

really I only wanted you to clarify what you were trying to say, like, if (like i) you thought there was maybe another way of of developing spiritually, what way is that?...what is the corkscrew to my hammer?
...no matter how much fame or success they obtain, there will never be another me, and no matter what they do there will never be another you...

Eminem
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firestarter
Intermediate Member
Username: firestarter

Post Number: 115
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 8:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I want to continue to grow Spiritually, but I no longer accept I must grow only by pain.
I know the value in suffering, but, umm, I AM letting it go now.
I can get to ecstacy by way of dance, going into forbidden woods that call me, reading books that crack "my egg" a little more, ceremony,
Sunrises, Sunsets, FIRES, the "nasty".

John Perkins wrote a WONDERFUL book, talking to a Shuar (shaman)?, anyway, the Shuar was stunned to hear that sex was not a part of psychiatric treatment here in the West.
LOL!!!
I get what he was getting at, without getting into the "should" thing.

For some reason I have always been placed in friendships with wealthy women, with few real hard ships through their lives.
Though, it seems, they use what little bit of suffering (big brother would always take their books and burn them) and be able to empathise......find a place of meeting.
I feel, if the desire to fly is within a person with or without great suffering it can be obtained.
A person without great suffering may have to use their imagination a little more or use a story and "go"?
Maybe suffering just puts us there faster?
Ecstacy is WONDERFUL and I highly suggest we all get a dose somehow every week!
LOL!
They build great temples/structures to make us feel lifted....however, I have found my own inside.

Pride.....
I feel pride when someone bites into the food I've made and watch their face light up.
I feel pride when someone sees my garden and cant help but go into it and eat something without even washing it off.
I feel pride when someone tells me how healthy my horses look.
I feel pride whenever someone sais, "now, I usually don't think babies are pretty, but your Grandson is BEAUTIFUL!"
lol!
"Who knows?" "We'll see."
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fortwynt
Senior Member
Username: fortwynt

Post Number: 1356
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 10:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

excellent points all of them!!!!!!!!!!!! :-)


about suffering or whatever, not to beat a dead horse, but i would rather suffer, if even just a little, so that when my ecstasy was all done i wouldn't be devastated, but know that there is a worse feeling out there than "less than ecstatic"...or in other words, i know plenty of children who when they don't get to do what they want, or have the kind of fun they want, it's the "end of the world" but obviously they havent really experienced a real feeling of the end of the world so they are over-reacting slightly...once they are older and understand that there are far worse things than losing your toy or getting grounded, their temperment evens out a bit (or should)....that's really all im saying....one can hardly be expected to understand reality if one NEVER experiences the lows AND highs and is able to formulate the concept of the proper difference between the healthy and unhealthy versions of both.

(Message edited by fortwynt on April 12, 2007)
No man can put a chain about the ankle of his fellow man without at last finding the other end fastened about his own neck.

Fredrick Douglas
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Thomas
Senior Member
Username: thomas_j_veil

Post Number: 7994
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 12:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Fortwynt wrote:

quote:

*sigh*

thomas and I just don't seem to agree as much these days.

really I only wanted you to clarify what you were trying to say, like, if (like i) you thought there was maybe another way of of developing spiritually, what way is that?...what is the corkscrew to my hammer



Hi, Fortwynt. I excused myself from our discussion last night when I did for two reasons (1) there is much in my "real" life that requires my attention and (2) well… I'll make that point below.

"Sharing," as Martha Stewart would say, "is a good thing." But most often when the "dance" of sharing starts feeling like a "tug of war," I"m really not interested in energizing that any further—in myself or in anyone else.

If someone, you perhaps, has a determined belief that I do not share, then often I have little interest in trying to "convince." (Unless the matter is squarely about human rights, I don't care to risk becoming any kind of "mind controller" by attempting, again and again, to drill my point of view—however great I might think it is—into someone else's head.)

Beating you over the head with my "truth"—however good or accurate it might be—is no path I wanted to walk either last night or today. It doesn't lead to "wisdom," only to "contention." Our otherwise fine message board is filled with enough contention these days, and I just don't want to add to it.

Generally speaking, having someone else disagree with my point of view neither "picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg."
"The science of the sacred uses not 'belief' but 'The Question' as its instrument. The more powerful 'The Question,' the deeper the insight."

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nadm
Advanced Member
Username: nadm

Post Number: 273
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 12:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

i think there might be an important point here that generalizes to pretty much everything. (yep, here's that unified theory Einstein was looking for )

the way we learn a thing, the manner, the process itself, leaves an energy imprint. it literally programs neuro circuits in our brain, muscles, etc. therefore, where possible, i think it is preferable to learn (and to teach) with kindness, gentleness, compassion.

this is not always possible, but even when a point must, for ethical reasons, be made forcefully, even this can be dosed with compassion.

in the end, the energy atmosphere we propagate around ourselves and those we touch matters. adding to the light, rather than stoking anxieties, anger and general dis-ease, makes a healthier community. i don't mean to imply that the gentler path is always obvious or simple to attain. it takes effort, consideration, respect, humility. and it does not equate to backing down from ethical positions, nor disregarding accountability for bad acts. it does not mean never taking an approach that pains others.

there is a Buudhist prayer which simply calls for a lifting of the suffering of all sentient beings. for me it is the heart of what we work for, as spiritual beings. and Thomas is right, so much of our present society programs us in the opposite direction. this is part of what we need to wake up to.

that's my 2 cents.
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fortwynt
Senior Member
Username: fortwynt

Post Number: 1365
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 8:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

well ya know what, i try and make sure no matter what point i am trying to make (especially if its a point that i just KNOW is going to raise the dander of some people), to always say something kind also...like if im talking about something, let's say how horrible christians have been towards non-christians throughout history, i would also mention that I know plenty of christians who are fine people and it is not their fault that the bad ones do bad things.

i find though that any kind (or fair) thing I say is pretty much not remembered due to the fact that some people only want to remember the thing they think i said that was "bad".

either way I have compassion for all people, I have been treated badly and good-ly by all different types of people and i would never dream of hating ANY type of person just based on their physical appearence, religion, sexual preference, or what flavor of ice cream they like to eat...

just pointing that out.
No man can put a chain about the ankle of his fellow man without at last finding the other end fastened about his own neck.

Fredrick Douglas
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fortwynt
Senior Member
Username: fortwynt

Post Number: 1366
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 9:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

And thomas i appreciate your gentle approach, it means a lot, you are a wise person and I have always appreciated your insight on probably every issue we discuss whether we agree on the finer points or not I generally always agree to some degree with you.

Obviously there are some points, as we can see in other areas of this board, that I simply refuse to back down from...probably thats to my folly, and im sure eventually it will lead to my downfall if certain characters have their say about it...and that's fine if so. Maybe you are right and drilling something over and over is probably pointless....

I was raised to believe that sometimes its good to get angry, because that shows that you really care....I don't think that every issue can be simply boiled down to say "well this is MY right and MY wrong, different that YOUR right and wrong"....i truly believe some things are just wrong and some are just right, for all people...and failing to point them out and bring attention to them stinks of sin of omission to me.

But we are free, in the end, to think what we both want to think and I respect you for everything you think, as I would hope that I am respected for what I think, even if it is admittedly unpopular.
No man can put a chain about the ankle of his fellow man without at last finding the other end fastened about his own neck.

Fredrick Douglas
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Da'an
Senior Member
Username: daan

Post Number: 2152
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 6:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

given the ongoing tin foil hat discussion in
the science and technology forum, several
of the posts in this thread are pertinent...
"UP"
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Second Wind
Advanced Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 236
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 8:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Thank you, Da'an, for doing what I had intended to do last night, but forgot.

Lots of good posts, info and links in this thread!

And thanks again to Thomas for starting it!
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Thomas
Senior Member
Username: thomas_j_veil

Post Number: 8356
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 1:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Thanks, Second Wind; I am happy to have started this discussion.

As for any "tin foil hats," I neither own one, nor see any advantage in having one.
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Po
Senior Member
Username: po_man_sings

Post Number: 704
Registered: 8-2005
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 5:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

You are most fortunate.
The unexamined thought is not worth having.
Neither is it much worth discussing.
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xretsim
Advanced Member
Username: xretsim

Post Number: 404
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 5:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

article on the effectiveness of aluminum foil deflector beanies. (conclusion may surprise)
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Second Wind
Advanced Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 351
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Friday, June 29, 2007 - 1:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Dr. Nick Begich will be on C2C again on Monday night, July 2nd.

From his website, articles on:

Mind Control
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Second Wind
Senior Member
Username: second_wind

Post Number: 505
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 6:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

bump
"In the end, only kindness matters."
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Edward Rose
New member
Username: edward_rose

Post Number: 34
Registered: 8-2007
Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 6:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Actually the CIA DIDN'T destroy all the evidence. They missed one box of accounting papers and reciepts. This is the basis of the book "The Search For The Manchurian Candidate."

From looking at that information and asking questions of people who were still alive at the time he wrote the book, his conclusion (actually mine) is that the CIA was...

"...developing a keen interest in schizophrenia, including ways of causing it and controlling it..."

This is the problem with most mind control victims. They fall into the trap of double-think, which results in endless thoughts and ideas of "what could be going on and what COULD have gone on in my life."

Quite sad, actually. I was lucky enough to have out-smarted schizophrenia, and also have a "Logical detective" way of thinking. (Logical Detective is one of the categories I fall under when taking an IQ test)

So in most cases, not too much can be gleaned from the stories of Mind Control subjects. And not just because of the double-think, but also because NO ONE will EVER tell them what happened to them because of how secretive the research and techniques are.

The real problem is the pharmaceutical drugs used in mind control. When Clinton bombed a particular Arab pharma factory during his Presidency, it wasn't because they were manufacturing bombs, as the public was told. It was because they were manufacturing drugs that are used to "Train" suicide bombers.

(Message edited by Edward_rose on August 17, 2007)
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Thomas
Senior Member
Username: thomas_j_veil

Post Number: 8871
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 7:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

You seem to be making a number of generalizations, Edward Rose--in some cases one flowing from the next.


quote:

This is the problem with most mind control victims.




Have you met or in some way experienced "most mind control victims"? Or are you referring to those few you have encountered in some limited way (as I have) including media appearances of one kind or another?

More the latter option, I'd wager.

While many here, I'm sure, would agree with your assessment, some others would not. In fact, it is entirely possible that "most" mind control victims have remained so completely silent on the issue that you or I wouldn't really be aware of what their "problems" might be, since they may not have revealed themselves--or their problems--in any identifiable way as such. Others, those who may have revealed themselves in some way, may have done so in a manner that is only a limited expression of the whole.

Since there were more than 150 such MK-ULTRA projects and sub-projects--at least--we simply do not know the extent to which our population was affected by these atrocities or precisely what the overall effects may have been, or still may be.


quote:

From looking at that information and asking questions of people who were still alive at the time he wrote the book, his conclusion (actually mine) is that the CIA was...



The "people who were still alive at the time he wrote the book"? John Marks published the book in 1979; since MK-ULTRA (and similar programs) seem to have begun in the 1950's and were well-underway by the 1960's, there were almost certainly quite a number of people who were "still alive" in 1979--and still are today.
“One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious.”

— Carl Gustav Jung, Swiss psychiatrist and philosopher, 1875–1961
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Edward Rose
New member
Username: edward_rose

Post Number: 40
Registered: 8-2007
Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 12:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I understand what you're saying. I have a habit of generalizing. However, the mind control I'm speaking of falls into two categories, and has very little to do with the "Experimenting" pre-1973. The old research is causing a lot of confusion right now in MC circles. They found out what worked by 1974, and threw out all of the old ideas. So a lot of what people are reading was being “Experimented with,” isn’t being done anymore.

Category One; Keeping someone from doing something or talking about something. This is usually done with "general, memory-erasing pharmaceuticals." This isn't magic memory erasure. It just makes a person generally forget what happened in the last 12 to 24 hours, or generally forget what they plan on doing in the near future, unless they're reminded of it. If their life is being controlled and if they aren’t keeping a “List of things to do,” no one will remind them.

Category Two; Inducing a schizophrenic-like, psychotic mood disorder. This is usually done to cause suicide, torture someone (you p***ed off the wrong person), or making someone assassinate a person.

Number Two is directly related to John Marks releasing an updated version of his book in 1984. (Curious... "1984" :-) ) He did this because, by that time (and NOT by 1979), two very famous Schiz assassins made their mark in history. One successful and one not. Mark David Chapman and John Hinckley Jr. He re-released the book and alluded more to the evidence that the doctors were curious about schizophrenia because, he knew by that time, that it was more relevant than the things he focused on previously. (re: Chapman and Hinckley)

Regardless, my whole point is that most mind control leads to psychotic mood disorders. And as a result of that, a lot of the "Perceived" mind control techniques are delusions. I'll be the FIRST to admit that, having been a victim myself and had psychological problems from 1997 to 2000.

However, I was never institutionalized and never prescribed any drugs. I never even saw a shrink. But I had Intel help. And because of that, I found out two things. One; I WAS being messed with. Two; Most of what I thought was "Going on" and what I thought was "Being done to me" wasn't, and were just symptoms of Schizo Affective Disorder.

Now that I've said all of that, I'll say this. Because of the fact that so many Mind Control victim's stories are filled with delusions of persecution and delusions about electronic devices, the world of Mind Control info is RIDDLED (in my opinion) with inaccuracies. I'm not saying I know EVERYTHING. But I CAN tell you a way to cause the same psychological problems to ANYONE, without using a single electronic device. It's what I found out was happening to ME. The reason I know this is because people were helping me, and some very important people wanted the story to be told.

As far as Mind Control message boards go... this ain't my first BBQ. I spent a lot of years bickering back and forth on internet message boards about mind control, because it's one of the most "concerned subjects" to Intel. Far above ufo's. They're GLAD these confused mind control victims are spreading stories and people will scream at the top of their lungs to stick up for them. And that's good. But it doesn't mean you have all the answers and it doesn't mean that they know exactly what happened to them.

NO ONE knows that it's all basically being done with one drug, and/or using CO2 injection into a person’s dwelling. Between this one drug and the elevated CO2 levels, the mind does the rest... the mind CREATES the rest. And the result, unfortunately, is people with tin foil on their toes. (I knew a woman like that... I have great sympathy) And the other result is a million people trying to help mind control victims, and the solutions are simpler than you could ever imagine.

Ever wonder why Jerry Fletcher kept his food locked up?
Step Inside ----> http://thisisthriller.com
People were killed for this ^ ^ ^

Or the short version (The Trailer)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4238075986115815046


In my opinion, who ever thinks their neighbor is messing with them using electronic devices, needs to re-evaluate all sources of their food and liquids because I bet there's a breach somewhere. And it's probably someone or a store that they never would have guessed would sell them out. They also need to open a few windows if they don’t have the power/ability to find the CO2 source.

Now I'll politely bow out of this thread because I know where it will go. And I don't have time for that. Again, I DO have sympathy for these people. I’m not a reverse-Spook trying to debunk it. I’m simply here to say that such a large number of Americans are being screwed with for the reasons of paragraph 2 and 3 of this post, that you can’t IMAGINE the effort being made to keep you ALL confused about it... and to keep ALL of the victims from checking their food & liquids and opening their windows. Hotter climates tend to really work well for these Mind Controlling scumbags. That’s one of the reasons I left Fort Lauderdale.

HAARP is a distraction,

Edward Rose

(Message edited by Edward_rose on August 19, 2007)