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brit
Intermediate Member
Username: clicker

Post Number: 167
Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 1:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

If anyone is interested (and imho they shoud be) here's some quotes from the emails:

Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith re AR4?
Keith will do likewise. He's not in at the moment - minor family crisis.
Can you also email Gene and get him to do the same? I don't
have his new email address.
We will be getting Caspar to do likewise.


The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a
travesty that we can't. The CERES data published in the August BAMS 09 supplement on 2008
shows there should be even more warming: but the data are surely wrong. Our observing
system is inadequate.

If they ever hear there is a Freedom of Information Act now in the UK, I think I'll delete the file rather than send it to anyone

renders the station counts totally meaningless... so, we can have a proper result, but only by including a load of garbage


And so on.

Well, if there's one thing that is abundantly clear from all this it's simply the following:

The science is not settled.....!

So let's think twice before putting ourselves into energy straightjackets and feeling bad about ourselves! Using energy is good and we should not think we are terrible people just because we want to fly on holiday.

So many of the people in charge of the world today seem to delight in either scaring us witless with the latest fear of the day, or making us feel utterly miserable for even existing and breathing. And every time these bogeymen turn out to be nothing: WMDs, terrorists, nuclear war, climate change all of them nothing like the dreaded dangers they are hyped up to be. We've got to the point these days where one man with a PowerPoint presentation can hold the whole world to ransom. It's a farce.

OK. Here endeth the rant. I'm sorry people...!
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes. - Ghandi
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sonorK
Senior Member
Username: sonork

Post Number: 1306
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 2:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Brit,
No need to apologize. This is a big "I told you so" to all the Gorites who drank the ManBearPig Kool Aid.

All it should've taken was one look at where some of the temperature sensors are placed in the US to know that any conclusions made using that data were complete bunk.

I hope every last one of these gov't lackeys gets blackballed forever. Walmart is usually hiring.
Universal Health Care: The DMV with wounds.
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brit
Intermediate Member
Username: clicker

Post Number: 168
Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Thursday, December 03, 2009 - 3:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Hi sonork. Nice to speak to you again.

Yes, for once I totally agree with you. The science here is obviously flawed or there wouldn't be such an argument raging about it.

What really irritates me is the notion that the science is settled and there is no further argument. It's a stupid thing to say, especially when it's related to such a complex system as the earth's atmosphere. Are they really saying that they know everything about it and there's no need for further input?

And then there's the emails where they express outrage because other scientists want to look at their data! Wtf? Isn't that what you're supposed to do? Isn't that what 'peer reviewed' means? One of them said he would rather delete the data than hand it over. Another told a scientist who had requested the data 'why should I make the data available to you, when your aim is to try and find something wrong with it?'. Words fail me... For once I agree with the old adage 'if you've got nothing to hide you've got nothing to worry about'!

Personally I am pretty tired of being told how to live my life by fat, rich people who jaunt around the world in private jets and live in houses that use more energy in one month than the average person does in a whole year.

And these hypocrites have the temerity to tell ME not to keep my TV on standby. Bollocks to the lot of them!
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes. - Ghandi
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susi
Intermediate Member
Username: etsi

Post Number: 184
Registered: 11-2009
Posted on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 12:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

maybe i think too simply, but if there is no such thing as global warming, then why are the ice covers melting, leaving bare land and ice floes melting leaving wild life to migrate for food?

although i believe man has a partial causal input, we are in a natural cycle. we just weren't around to experience the last one.
sure you can trust the government....just ask an indian.
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1335
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 4:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Hi Susi,

I think one of the problems with the politicisation of AGW science is the adoption of generic terms such as "Global Warming" and later "Climate Change" to help promote the issue.

We should be able to agree that the globe has warmed without leaping onto the anthropogenic global warming bandwagon. "Climate Change" is worse, in my opinion, because now people who use the term in its traditional sense are labeled "deniers" of an anthropogenic cause.

I don't believe any reasonable person would question the fact that humans have some level of partial input. That's not what we are being led to believe by the AGW movement however.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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sonorK
Senior Member
Username: sonork

Post Number: 1312
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 11:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Hi Susi,
ditto what Chris said. Of course humans have an impact. So do cows and bacteria. I believe it is more of a cycle and humans just aren't smart enough to predict what it will actually do.

New report on Sciencedaily.com recently stated that scientists were surprised at the amount of increase in shell building by crustaceans as CO2 levels rose. Aspen trees are growing faster with higher levels. That means the increase HAS had a feedback reaction on various lifeforms that scientists have not accounted for in their calcs.

OK, going to bed.
Universal Health Care: The DMV with wounds.
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susi
Intermediate Member
Username: etsi

Post Number: 195
Registered: 11-2009
Posted on Saturday, December 05, 2009 - 8:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

thanks guys.
sure you can trust the government....just ask an indian.
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tomkowt
Advanced Member
Username: tomkowt

Post Number: 347
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Saturday, December 05, 2009 - 11:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I'm with susi. We're not solely to blame. It's a natural process. But we've definitely sped up the process. A couple of things: 1) hasn't this warming period been going on for thousands of years? After all, the glaciers, which covered most of the northern hemisphere, have been retreating all this time.The hockey stick graph which shows
Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there. -Rumi
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brit
Intermediate Member
Username: clicker

Post Number: 169
Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Saturday, December 05, 2009 - 1:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

No-one is denying the climate is changing. At least I'm not. We don't have winters here in the UK like we used to. In 1981 I couldn't get home for three days and had to stay with friends the snow was so bad. And in 1963 the sea froze near where I lived.

But back in Chaucer's time (1300s) we had vineyards in northern England, yet our coasts were not inundated, nor was London underwater. And to be honest I wouldn't mind a bit of that warmth right now.

Anyway, perhaps we are having an effect. I can't see how six and half billion souls breathing, belching, farting and driving wouldn't have some effect. But just as there is natural feedback from these emissions in raising temps, there's also natural feedback in damping their effects down. Which may be why, despite large rises in CO2 emissions, temps have trended downwards in recent years.

But it's all OK to investigate and debate this. What is not OK is for a small (yes 'small', nowhere near the '2500' the IPCC keep quoting) bunch of scientists to monopolise the debate and attempt to freeze out opposition. That's not OK at all.

And I'm sorry tomkowt but this bloody 'hockey stick' graph is pretty much dead in the water. The whole point re: the current furore about the CRU data is that the hockey stick curve can only exist when data is manipulated artificially. Look at recent revelations about the computer code.

FYI, the Met Office over here is currently going back to the drawing board and re-evaluating a 160 years of data to ascertain it's validity. You don't do that if the science is settled.
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes. - Ghandi
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1336
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Saturday, December 05, 2009 - 5:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I'll be very interested to see what the Met Office comes out with. I won't say I'm optimistic. They appear to have leapt onto the "hide the decline" temperature conspiracy meme. I'm guessing they'll release some data to apparently prove the world has warmed and ergo "global warming" must also be true in the way they have always presented it.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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brit
Intermediate Member
Username: clicker

Post Number: 170
Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Sunday, December 06, 2009 - 7:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Yes I agree Chr15t05. It's not paranoid to assume people will do what they can to save embarassment.

There already seems to be a campaign that focuses on the emails, which means the argument about who said what and in what context is kept going, thus also shedding doubt.

And it's unfortunate that not many people will 'get' what's going on in the computer code so the most damning evidence of all can be kept obscure. However, I would urge people to visit the excellent 'Watt's up with that?' website for updates on this.

Some of the Sunday papers here are saying that sceptics are paranoid and ask what possible motive there could be for cooking the figures, or how could something like this be suppressed, as if it's on a par with the plane that hit the Pentagon thing.

But I would like to turn this argument on it's head and ask: 'given that the computer code was obviously and blantantly edited to artificially adjust the results, why would anyone do that?'.
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes. - Ghandi
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brit
Intermediate Member
Username: clicker

Post Number: 171
Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Sunday, December 06, 2009 - 10:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

And more about that pesky computer code here (it's in the second half of the news segmment):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8395514.stm

Maybe the BBC is finally waking up to the facts here instead of the hysteria.
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes. - Ghandi
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sonorK
Senior Member
Username: sonork

Post Number: 1315
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Sunday, December 06, 2009 - 11:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

And Copenhagen will produce the same amount of CO2 as an African country.
Universal Health Care: The DMV with wounds.
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mthood2
New member
Username: mthood2

Post Number: 19
Registered: 12-2009
Posted on Sunday, December 20, 2009 - 10:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Data, Skepticism, Judgment

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1338
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Sunday, December 20, 2009 - 4:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Hi mthood2. Would you like to get into a discussion about the updated "hockey stick" graph? I have plenty in my notes, including wilful data omission, blatant cherry picking and, in all seriousness, the accidental use of one dataset upside down because it fit the desired trend.

I notice also that while the full chart linked to in the blog you posted purports to show a balanced view of both arguments, that its listed sources are certainly not. Had the author thought to include Climate Audit as a counter argument to Real Climate they would have a much more objective result.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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mthood2
New member
Username: mthood2

Post Number: 22
Registered: 12-2009
Posted on Sunday, December 20, 2009 - 7:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Nothing to debate Chris, just posting links I find interesting. I'm not on either side, so I'm not entrenched on any outcome, which is the general problem, sides. There shouldn't be any.

I'm sure your notes are extensive, however I have no interest in pushing a point of view. I hardly believe that the Climate Audit site is interested in a balanced view.
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1339
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Sunday, December 20, 2009 - 9:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Neither is Real Climate, as the leaked emails clearly show; they are a well funded advocacy group. Highlighting the two main "sides" of the issue is actually what the author of the chart in the link you posted was attempting. I merely pointed out that they had their reasoning skewed pretty far in one direction by including the main pro-agw advocacy group without mentioning their logical balance point.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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Jimmy
Senior Member
Username: chippyo

Post Number: 1224
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Monday, December 21, 2009 - 9:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Yes the Copenhagan meeting produces CO2, just like a small country. We all may lose some battles, but ultimately win the war. The bottom line is the natural climate cycle is being exacerbated by CO2. The evidence is there, it is fact. This would happen naturally but mankind has sped up the process & here lies the problem: to much to soon means big trouble. But it is already to late, the is like trying to stop a large barge. And heres another stat:
in ~10 years 50% of Europe's ski natural ski resorts will be gone.

Whiel I am on it, what really shows ignorance is when my neighbor tells me after 1.5 feet of snow that "So much for Global Warning!" Haha, yeah man, daily hi's & lows are just like the stock market, but do you see the overall trend? Get the big picture. Depending on the season, when we hit the trigger point it may be a hot hell or an icey hell.
"Don't take life to seriously;no one gets out alive."

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brit
Intermediate Member
Username: clicker

Post Number: 180
Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Monday, December 21, 2009 - 10:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

"the natural climate cycle is being exacerbated by CO2"

How do you know that?
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes. - Ghandi
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inman
Junior Member
Username: inman

Post Number: 68
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Monday, December 21, 2009 - 2:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I'm in my mid 50's and I can tell you that the weather used to be a lot more consistent during every season. It is pretty wacky now. Shame on you if you haven't noticed.

Do you "don't believe in climate change" folks work for Exxon or do you just have your heads up your _______________fill in the blank.
Socialism is no more akin to Communism than Capitalism is to Democracy
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Jill
Junior Member
Username: jill

Post Number: 56
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Monday, December 21, 2009 - 4:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Did any of you see the Jesse Ventura Conspiracy Theory show about Global Warming last week? The show is a bit cheesy but they do uncover interesting information. The outcome of the show was that the people heading the "Green" revolution, including the "global warming" scare, are the same people who are getting very rich from green technology and also from the selling of carbon credits (not only US companies, but also Chinese). One of the scientists said he believes our current climate change is due to the sun.
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1342
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Monday, December 21, 2009 - 5:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Hi Jill. I didn't see that program but I believe what you said is true to an extent, certainly.

inman, you would appear to have been born in the 1950s, and witnessed the warming between then until now. Congratulations, you have discovered that the climate changes. Were you in your 70s you would have also lived through the warm period of the 1930s and 40s.

One of the interesting things about the leaked CRU emails is that we now know that the Climate Change orthodoxy was/is also quite friendly with Shell and Exxon. It's a bit of a sticky wicket there now I'm afraid, but feel free to keep your head in the sand (or wherever else you may want to put it) if that's too difficult to hear.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1343
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Monday, December 21, 2009 - 5:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Jimmy said:

quote:

And heres another stat:
in ~10 years 50% of Europe's ski natural ski resorts will be gone


Jimmy, I agree with you generally but I believe that statistic is based on projections where human CO2 output is presumed to be the primary climate driver, not simply exacerbating a natural cycle. However, I would be interested in seeing the source of the claim.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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brit
Intermediate Member
Username: clicker

Post Number: 181
Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Tuesday, December 22, 2009 - 8:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

inman:

I too am fifty years old and of course the climate is changing. It's obvious.

But with all the confusion over the bad science that's been unearthed recently the truth is we just don't know if humans are driving climate change or not.

The scientists involved should be ashamed. They have succeeded in muddying the waters so much we just cannot tell what is going on now.
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes. - Ghandi
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inman
Junior Member
Username: inman

Post Number: 70
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Tuesday, December 22, 2009 - 11:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

One thing is for sure, the oceans have not warmed up like this in any of our current lifetimes. Two things are for sure, the glaciers have not seen this melt in thousands of years. Carbon emissions are responsible for some of the warming. I think if you don't understand that you are a dupe for corporate interests or you are actively involved in dark sorcery (meaning you are probably working for corporate interests). Exxon has spent many millions of dollars to debunk global warming.
And I do apologize for using near foul language, but this is a serious and probably at this time irreversible problem.
Socialism is no more akin to Communism than Capitalism is to Democracy
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inman
Junior Member
Username: inman

Post Number: 71
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Tuesday, December 22, 2009 - 11:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Should the Romantic poets be ashamed? They foresaw this 200 years ago.
Socialism is no more akin to Communism than Capitalism is to Democracy
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mthood2
New member
Username: mthood2

Post Number: 28
Registered: 12-2009
Posted on Tuesday, December 22, 2009 - 12:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Chris, what is the big difference between human activity and CO2 emissions exacerbating natural climate cycles and the thought that human activity is the main culprit. Shouldn't the response be the same? I understand people think that there is some global conspiracy to take over the world by Al Gore and his climate science zombie army, but any talk of "bad science" is pertinent to almost any field of scientific inquiry at some point.

In the end, as an environmentalist, (whatever that means anymore, basically nothing I suppose) it doesn't matter either way and won't change what I do and what I've always done.

There are many good reasons to change, climate change is but one.

I still see the most vociferous reactions to climate change/AGW coming from those that are afraid it will negatively impact their consumer lifestyles, but that's just my opinion.

It's interesting to see how on almost every mainstream report on global warming, the comments and blog sections are almost exclusively taken over by the "global warming is the biggest hoax ever" crowd.
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brit
Intermediate Member
Username: clicker

Post Number: 182
Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Tuesday, December 22, 2009 - 12:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Hah! That's the first time I've ever been accused of being a corporate troll! Excellent. I feel as if I have 'come of age' on the internet.

No my friend, as I've been ranting (and apologising) about on other threads I just do not think the AGW scare stories are anything like as bad as things really are. And I don't like fear-mongering either.

You say glaicers have not seen melt like this for thousands of years, yet I was reading an article about Vikings in Greenland just the other day. And then I read the Indian government says that glaciers are growing at the western end of the Himalayas - though shrinking in the East. The Arctic ice is back up again. The Antarctic is growing. But, yes the climate is changing, I agree with that.

Anyway, I won't rant too much again, I'm sure people here are sick of my bleatings by now. My point is this: for every piece of evidence one way there is a piece pointing the other. For every scientist saying we're going to be living in an oven in fifty years there is one saying we won't.

The reason for this confusion is explained very well here:

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2009/12/18/terence-co rcoran-a-2-000-page-epic-of-science-and-skepticism-part-1.aspx

and here:

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2009/12/21/terence-co rcoran-a-2-000-page-epic-of-science-and-skepticism-part-2.aspx

All of which therefore means we do not know for certain one way or the other what the climate is going to do except that it will carry on doing what it's always done, change.
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes. - Ghandi
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inman
Junior Member
Username: inman

Post Number: 75
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Tuesday, December 22, 2009 - 9:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

"What we have here, is a failure to communicate" warden, Cool Hand Luke

We obviously have differences of opinion Brit. You are probably a nice guy and I'd be a lot more friendly if we were face to face.

Manmade or Natural, whatever, I am afraid we are all, no matter what our beliefs, going to be in for a rough ride weather wise in the not too distant future. Here's hoping that life on this planet survives.

God bless you and yours and have a very Merry Christmas.

"Blow up your tv, throw away your paper, move to the country, build you a home. Plant a little garden, grow a lot of peaches, try and find Jesus, on your own." John Prine
Socialism is no more akin to Communism than Capitalism is to Democracy
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1344
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 1:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Mthood2 said:

quote:

Chris, what is the big difference between human activity and CO2 emissions exacerbating natural climate cycles and the thought that human activity is the main culprit. Shouldn't the response be the same?



If you read back over some of my older posts here I think you will find my opinion has been pretty consistent. I believe that certain scientific, commercial and political groups have grossly over stated the case for Anthropogenic Global Warming and the level of certainty in future climate projections.

I believe the public en mass has bought into the issue based on this pseudo certainty. The current environmental movement now hinges on the idea that we have the direct ability to control the climate. The same level of public support would not exist of people came to believe that this is not really true.

So to answer your question, yes, in a perfect world our response should be similar. But it won't be. The variable is the changing perception of the issue in the public sphere. This is what we are beginning to see now, in my opinion.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1345
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Saturday, January 02, 2010 - 4:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Britain facing one of the coldest winters in 100 years, experts predict
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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xretsim
Senior Member
Username: xretsim

Post Number: 1263
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Saturday, January 02, 2010 - 6:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

it's cold now, but the overall trend is warming. there were many british temperature records broken last summer.

november was unusually mild in all of norway with mean temperatures about 3 degrees above normal, and a new record high for svalbard.
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1346
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Saturday, January 02, 2010 - 7:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Hi xretism. It would appear to be the Arctic Oscillation Index recently going strongly negative that is generating the current cold snap. This is conjunction with the Atlantic and Pacific ocean oscillations also currently negative should theoretically mean some cold winters ahead for the northern hemisphere, assuming current patterns continue.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1347
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 06, 2010 - 3:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Well quick flashback to an earlier discussion. The Times newspaper in the UK has now been forced by the industry watchdog to retract their claims that shipping routs through the North East Passage were becoming viable for the first time. The Times had been running an advertising campaign for their environmental coverage based on this claim.

quote:

An advertising campaign touting the depth and quality of the Times newspaper's environment coverage has been slapped by an industry watchdog for inaccuracy. The paper has agreed to modify the advertisements, which are based on a false climate change claim.

The Times ads claimed that global warming had caused the North East shipping passage, the icy Arctic route which in summer links Russia's European ports to the Bering Strait, to be opened for the first time. In fact, the North East Passage opened in 1934, and was opened to overseas traffic after the fall of the Soviet Union. Modern technology, specifically radar, has permitted a safer passage in recent years.


(Full article)

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1348
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Monday, January 11, 2010 - 11:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Antarctic sea water shows 'no sign' of warming
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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Jimmy
Senior Member
Username: chippyo

Post Number: 1239
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 12:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Global Dimming & Pan Evaporation rate...a quick peep at the white papaer & stats and one can see how this may be negateing global warming.

Most people have the global warming crisis wrong.
"Don't take life to seriously;no one gets out alive."

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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1349
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Friday, January 15, 2010 - 1:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

You got a link for that, Jimmy?
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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Jimmy
Senior Member
Username: chippyo

Post Number: 1240
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Friday, January 15, 2010 - 1:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

The pub med via the university has me locked out unless you are a subscriber. All I can offer is this BBC (A little easier to believe than any US source, but they do a flair for the dramatic to make their point.) documentary.

Just another element to add to the mix of the massively complex global climatology modeling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkJUJ5-PL-0

The fact that the research data came from irrigation & agricultural sciences & had nothing to do with political leveraging holds validity for me. I'll see if I can scartch up that paper outside of the university's system.
"Don't take life to seriously;no one gets out alive."

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mthood
Intermediate Member
Username: mthood2

Post Number: 101
Registered: 12-2009
Posted on Friday, January 15, 2010 - 1:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

http://www.guardian.co.uk

"Leading climate scientist challenges Mail on Sunday's use of his research"


quote:

A leading scientist has hit out at misleading newspaper reports that linked his research to claims that the current cold weather undermines the scientific case for manmade global warming.

Mojib Latif, a climate expert at the Leibniz Institute at Kiel University in Germany, said he "cannot understand" reports that used his research to question the scientific consensus on climate change.

He told the Guardian: "It comes as a surprise to me that people would try to use my statements to try to dispute the nature of global warming. I believe in manmade global warming. I have said that if my name was not Mojib Latif it would be global warming."

He added: "There is no doubt within the scientific community that we are affecting the climate, that the climate is changing and responding to our emissions of greenhouse gases."

A report in the Mail on Sunday said that Latif's results "challenge some of the global warming orthodoxy's most deeply cherished beliefs" and "undermine the standard climate computer models". Monday's Daily Mail and Daily Telegraph repeated the claims.

The reports attempted to link the Arctic weather that has enveloped the UK with research published by Latif's team in the journal Nature in 2008. The research said that natural fluctuations in ocean temperature could have a bigger impact on global temperature than expected. In particular, the study concluded that cooling in the oceans could offset global warming, with the average temperature over the decades 2000-2010 and 2005-2015 predicted to be no higher than the average for 1994-2004. Despite clarifications from the scientists at the time, who stressed that the research did not challenge the predicted long-term warming trend, the study was widely misreported as signalling a switch from global warming to global cooling.


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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1350
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Friday, January 15, 2010 - 3:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Cheers Jimmy. Yeah I thought that was probably what you were saying. I actually think sulfate aerosols are a problem, particularly the way they can weaken the hydrologic cycle. The link to climate change is provocative, but it relies on the conventional theory of CO2 forcing amplified by H2O feedback. Because one affects the hydrologic cycle and the other depends on it, it is not an unreasonable association. However, because particulate pollution is not consistent globally, and the expected atmospheric "greenhouse" signal has yet to be found empirically, that's as far as I would take it with my understanding of present data. I do agree that removing particulates from the atmosphere would make the sun appear brighter, but the nights would also be cooler.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1351
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Friday, January 15, 2010 - 5:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

mthood, I also have little doubt that greenhouse gases are to some extent affecting the climate. Does that mean I agree with the conventional views of the "consensus"? Absolutely not.

I do believe that natural ocean cycles have a far greater impact on global temperatures than human emissions of greenhouse gases. The reason I have kept posting on this thread was because I had noticed the shift to "cool" begin in the pacific ocean and thought this would be a good place to discuss the effects.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1352
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Friday, January 15, 2010 - 5:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Additionally, I would also point out that it is not in any scientist's interest to argue against the "consensus". I'm sure Mojib Latif would prefer to keep his funding and avoid a witch hunt. But lest you think that his findings are agree with the mainstream view of AGW, please remember that as recently as 2009 a CRU scientist was privately lamenting:

quote:

"The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't."


The fact is that while all major ocean cycles were in their warm phase the climate change orthodoxy was quite happy to overlook these changes in favour of the anthropogenic cause. Now, in my opinion, they are starting to sweat. Time will tell.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1353
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Sunday, January 17, 2010 - 10:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

From the UK Times:

World misled over Himalayan glacier meltdown

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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sonorK
Senior Member
Username: sonork

Post Number: 1323
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Monday, January 18, 2010 - 12:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

The crickets are gathering and chirping rather loudly....
Universal Health Care: The DMV with wounds.
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miaree9
Senior Member
Username: miaree9

Post Number: 3818
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Monday, January 18, 2010 - 12:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

SonorK, it's so good to hear from you!
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1354
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 6:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Arctic Oscillation moving back into positive. Should be interesting to see what happens next in the northern hemisphere's winter.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1355
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 11:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

From China Daily:

Cold weather freezes sea, slows traffic

Heavy snow and unusually cold weather have swept across most parts of China this week, causing travel chaos on roads and on the sea, with forecasters predicting worse to come.

The worst sea ice in 30 years is threatening shipping and the livelihoods of fishermen on China's eastern coast and the situation is expected to worsen this week, with about 40 percent of the Bohai Sea's surface already frozen, the State Oceanic Administration (SOA) said on its website.

The Shandong provincial oceanic and fishery department issued warnings of sea ice and began 24-hour monitoring of conditions last Tuesday.

Juhua Island, the largest island in Liaodong Bay, was surrounded by sea ice, which caused more than 3,200 residents on the island to face a coal and medicine shortage, Xinhua reported yesterday.

Huludao is facing the worst sea ice in three decades and the sea froze a month earlier than usual. Data from the SOA showed that on Jan 13 the sea ice, as thick as 35 cm, covered a length of 110 km.


(Article Continues)
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1356
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 4:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Arctic Oscillation back well into negative. Probably spoke a little too soon there!

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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Graciesmom
New member
Username: jmm

Post Number: 5
Registered: 1-2010
Posted on Monday, January 25, 2010 - 8:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

It's SIXTY degrees and pouring rain here in central PA this morning, and was at 6 a.m.!
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kathy decker
Senior Member
Username: kat

Post Number: 1368
Registered: 1-2004
Posted on Monday, January 25, 2010 - 1:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

With all the flooding here , I should be able to see ducks swimming in the Susquehannah River from my window by tomorrow morning!
Humans believe they are devils pretending to be angels when, in fact, the reverse is true.
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1357
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Tuesday, January 26, 2010 - 8:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Britain's chief scientist John Beddington calls for engagement with climate sceptics

"THE impact of global warming has been exaggerated by some scientists and there is an urgent need for more honest disclosure of the uncertainty of predictions about the rate of climate change, according to the British Government's chief scientific adviser.

John Beddington was speaking after an admission by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) that it grossly over-stated the rate at which Himalayan glaciers were receding.

Professor Beddington said that climate scientists should be less hostile to sceptics who questioned man-made global warming. He condemned scientists who refused to publish the data underpinning their reports.

He said that public confidence in climate science would be improved if there were more openness about its uncertainties, even if that meant admitting that sceptics had been right on some hotly disputed issues.

"I don't think it's healthy to dismiss proper scepticism. Science grows and improves in the light of criticism. There is a fundamental uncertainty about climate change prediction that can't be changed," he said.

(Article continues)
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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sonorK
Senior Member
Username: sonork

Post Number: 1329
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Wednesday, January 27, 2010 - 1:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I wonder if they engaged the sceptics back in the 70's when the 'coming Ice Age' petered out???
Universal Health Care: The DMV with wounds.
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Skin Shed Mon
Senior Member
Username: shedmyskin

Post Number: 2665
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Monday, February 01, 2010 - 3:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

People would be less skiptical if they stopped LYING!

exagerating? twisting data? sounds like a b.s. way of saying LIED!

This will all peter out like the ice age thing, and they'll begin working on the next eco fraud scare. You watch...Oxygen shortages.

This whole thing is about making a ton of money and global control for a small group of people, thats my take. If I'm wrong....well is that my fault they lied over and over again and discredited themselves.....
In spite of everything I still believe that people are really good at heart. I simply can't build up my hopes on a foundation consisting of confusion, misery and death. -Anne Frank
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Anthony O.
Senior Member
Username: anfernio

Post Number: 521
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 04, 2010 - 6:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

In my town we haven't had a big snow storm since 1996 when we got about 3 feet of snow. Over the next week we are expecting to break records for snow accumulation.
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1358
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Friday, February 05, 2010 - 1:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

In an odd turn of events, UAH satellite has just released data showing this last January to be the warmest on record. Looks like a spike relating to the current El Nino. Still odd to see after so many extreme cold reports from this NH winter. Will be interesting to see what happens as El Nino begins to fade in the next few months.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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Buddie
Senior Member
Username: buddie

Post Number: 2562
Registered: 3-2008
Posted on Saturday, February 06, 2010 - 12:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Hope everyone in Washington DC
rides out the Blizzard they are
having today.. stay safe

(Message edited by buddie on February 06, 2010)
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1359
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 5:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Arctic oscillation is off the charts negative once again. At least we live in interesting times!

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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mthood
Intermediate Member
Username: mthood2

Post Number: 171
Registered: 12-2009
Posted on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 10:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

And in other news, Vancouver BC is having one of the warmest winters on record... To bad for the Winter Olympics
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1360
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 4:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Yes, it has been an interesting combination of strong el nino, and very negative Arctic oscillation. Here's a map of the typical winter patterns for the US and Canada during an El Nino winter. Might look familiar to some. Note also Vancouver.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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mthood
Advanced Member
Username: mthood2

Post Number: 226
Registered: 12-2009
Posted on Friday, February 26, 2010 - 12:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I'm clearly in the "warmer winter section", and that certainly didn't happen, let me tell you.



Push to Oversimplify at Climate Panel


quote:

The problem stems from the IPCC's thorny mission: Take sophisticated and sometimes inconclusive science, and boil it down to usable advice for lawmakers. To meet that goal, scientists working with the IPCC say they sometimes faced institutional bias toward oversimplification, a Wall Street Journal examination shows.

Richard Alley, a geoscientist who helped write the IPCC's latest report, issued in 2007, described a trip that summer to Greenland's ice sheet with senators who urged him to be as specific as possible about the potential for sea-level rise. The point many of them made, he said: Give more explicit advice—because, if the sea rises, "the levee has to be built some height."




http://online.wsj.com/article/
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miaree9
Senior Member
Username: miaree9

Post Number: 3967
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Friday, February 26, 2010 - 5:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

This article is sort of a derail, but I wanted to post it somewhere: 48-Mile-Long Iceberg Calves Off Antarctica.

From the article:

The new iceberg is 48 miles long and about 24 miles wide and holds roughly the equivalent of a fifth of the world's annual total water usage, Young told The Associated Press.

Experts are concerned about the effect of the massive displacement of ice on the ice-free water next to the glacier, which is important for ocean currents.

This area of water had been kept clear because of the glacier, said Steve Rintoul, a leading climate expert. With part of the glacier gone, the area could fill with sea ice, which would disrupt the ability for the dense and cold water to sink.

This sinking water is what spills into ocean basins and feeds the global ocean currents with oxygen, Rintoul explained.

As there are only a few areas in the world where this occurs, a slowing of the process would mean less oxygen supplied into the deep currents that feed the oceans.

"There may be regions of the world's oceans that lose oxygen, and then of course most of the life there will die," said Mario Hoppema, chemical oceanographer at the Alfred Wegener Institute for Polar and Marine Research in Germany.

The icebergs, weighing 860 billion tons and 700 billion tons respectively, are located in water over the Antarctic Continental Shelf, Young said.
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animalspirits
Senior Member
Username: animalspiritstalstarcom

Post Number: 7008
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Friday, February 26, 2010 - 7:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

That could be bad news for a lot of the species, including Penguins and Whales, that feed on krill in that area.
Understand that all things are sacred--yet nothing is sacred.

~Yotee Coyote
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Buddie
Senior Member
Username: buddie

Post Number: 2665
Registered: 3-2008
Posted on Friday, February 26, 2010 - 8:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Massive Iceberg spotted off Australia

The country's Bureau of Meteorology issued the alert Friday after the iceberg was seen off the country's southwestern coast.

Glaciologist Neal Young of the Australian Antarctic Division found the iceberg using satellite images. Young described it as 19 kilometres long and eight kilometres wide.

The iceberg is one of several that broke off from ice shelves in Antarctica in 2000.

It is expected to break apart as it moves into warmer waters farther north, but the resulting flotilla of smaller icebergs could pose a hazard to ships.

The Australian Antarctic Division has called the presence of such a large iceberg this far north a once-in-a-lifetime event, but cautioned against attributing it directly to global climate change.
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mthood
Advanced Member
Username: mthood2

Post Number: 255
Registered: 12-2009
Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2010 - 8:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article7050312.ece

Here comes the methane...

Huge quantities of methane below the Arctic seabed are showing signs of destabilising, according to research conducted in the East Siberian Sea.

Scientists aboard Russian icebreakers have discovered that methane is leaking from the sub-sea permafrost far faster than had been previously estimated, raising concerns that climatic tipping points may have been reached.

As a greenhouse gas, methane is 25 times more powerful than carbon dioxide but emissions from subsea permafrost are not included in climate change prediction models.

“The sub-sea permafrost should act as a cap or seal, preventing leakage,” Natalia Shakhova, of the University of Alaska, told The Times. “Beneath it there is methane that has accumulated at high pressure. But the permafrost is losing its ability to be an
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miaree9
Senior Member
Username: miaree9

Post Number: 4000
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Friday, March 05, 2010 - 9:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I just ran across this article with regards to the whole 'climategate' scandal: Climate emails inquiry: Energy consultant linked to physics body's submission.

Here's a snippet:

Evidence from a respected scientific body to a parliamentary inquiry examining the behaviour of climate-change scientists, was drawn from an energy industry consultant who argues that global warming is a religion, the Guardian can reveal.

The submission, from the Institute of Physics (IOP), suggested that scientists at the University of East Anglia had cherry-picked data to support conclusions and that key reconstructions of past temperature could not be relied upon.

The evidence was given to the select committee on science and technology, which is investigating emails from climate experts at the University of East Anglia that were released online last year.

The committee interviewed witnesses on Monday, including Phil Jones, the scientist from the university's climatic research unit (CRU), who is at the heart of the controversy.

The Guardian has established that the institute prepared its evidence, which was highly critical of the CRU scientists, after inviting views from Peter Gill, an IOP official who is head of a company in Surrey called Crestport Services.

According to Gill, Crestport offers "consultancy and management support services … particularly within the energy and energy intensive industries worldwide", and says that it has worked with "oil and gas production companies including Shell, British Gas, and Petroleum Development Oman".

In an article in the newsletter of the IOP south central branch in April 2008, which attempted to downplay the role carbon dioxide plays in global warming, Gill wrote: "If you don't 'believe' in anthropogenic climate change, you risk at best ridicule, but more likely vitriolic comments or even character assassination. Unfortunately, for many people the subject has become a religion, so facts and analysis have become largely irrelevant."

In November Gill commented, on the Times Higher Education website: "Poor old CRU have been seriously hacked. The emails and other files are all over the internet and include how to hide atmospheric cooling."


I don't know that this information changes anything, but it does put a whole new spin on things.
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miaree9
Senior Member
Username: miaree9

Post Number: 4001
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Friday, March 05, 2010 - 9:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

And there's this: Methane frozen beneath Arctic seabed destabilising, scientists warn.
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1361
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2010 - 3:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Hi all. I've been travelling and haven't had time to post recently. Will just make some coffee and then catch up on responses I've been meaning to write.

A quick one for now.

Mthood said:

quote:

I'm clearly in the "warmer winter section", and that certainly didn't happen, let me tell you.


The most interesting thing about this NH winter was not the el nino but the combination of strong el nino with extremely negative arctic oscillation. We have not seen this combination in the last two generations at least I believe. The variance from traditional el nino patterns will be interesting to note for future. Seems like the cold area was larger than normal.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1363
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2010 - 4:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Regarding the twice posted article about methane release. Urgh, how I hate the words "tipping point"; in my opinion they're used too frequently to hypothesise a scare scenario for which there is otherwise little evidence.

Here are global atmospheric methane levels. One of the interesting things about atmospheric methane is that, unlike CO2, the increase has slowed significantly in recent years. I will continue to watch and see if the upward trend seen in the 80s and 90s renews, or if the more stable pattern of the last decade continues.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1364
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2010 - 4:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

As there has been a renewed interested in Antarctic sea ice, here again is the current SH sea ice area. And to clarify once more, there has been no downward trend in Antarctic sea ice. Ice levels are healthy, currently above the long term average, and have been on a gradual increase for the last several decades.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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miaree9
Senior Member
Username: miaree9

Post Number: 4003
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2010 - 4:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Lol, yesterday evening I failed to notice that mthood had linked to the same 'methane' article that I did. My apologies for the redundancy.
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1365
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2010 - 5:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Ha. Yeah I didn't spot it at first either, Miaree. I assumed they were two different articles on the same topic.

Miaree said:

quote:

I just ran across this article with regards to the whole 'climategate' scandal: Climate emails inquiry: Energy consultant linked to physics body's submission.


Let's be clear here, there are "energy consultants" mixed up with both sides of this issue. Among the most surprising things about the leaked CRU emails is that they revealed cordial communication with the energy sector, namely Shell, BP and Esso/Exxon. In my opinion it is not fair to infer that testimony is invalid because a link to the energy sector can be shown, when the CRU emails reveal the energy sector was actively being pursued for funding and to be a "strategic partner" with the climate change orthodoxy.

Clearly there are groups with vested interests in making more out of the leaked CRU data than actually exists. However, it should be understood that what has actually been revealed does indeed show a culture of data withholding and manipulation, character attacks on critics, multiple breaches of FOI laws, and an inability to meet scientific standards of independent replication of conclusions. It is only to what extent the above has been committed, and how much this has affected the underlying science, that remains to be seen.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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animalspirits
Senior Member
Username: animalspiritstalstarcom

Post Number: 7058
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2010 - 6:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Chris,

What is your profession?
Understand that all things are sacred--yet nothing is sacred.

~Yotee Coyote
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1366
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2010 - 6:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Hi AS. I currently work as national operations manager for an Australian company in the education sector. However, my background is in media and communications, which is why my perspective is often slanted towards critiques of media misrepresentation, sensationalism and propaganda.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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animalspirits
Senior Member
Username: animalspiritstalstarcom

Post Number: 7059
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2010 - 8:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Chris,

I wondered because you don't seem to even entertain the other side of global warming.

Media misrepresentation, sensationalism, and propaganda is in the eye of the beholder.

As for those energy giants emails, you don't actually believe you have privy to everything they email, do you? You aren't that naive, are you?

They are lobbying in Washington to kill as much legislation that hurts their bottom line, curtails their ability to drill for more oil in our last vast wonderlands, and that keeps us from actively pursuing green alternatives. Do you have any idea of the environmental damage that a deep water oil rupture in the Gulf of Mexico (where Category 5 Hurricanes routinely cross) would cause?

If error is to be made, I would rather it be made on the side that protects the Earth rather than raping it.

If you care to know my profession and background, you can read my profile.
Understand that all things are sacred--yet nothing is sacred.

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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1367
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2010 - 9:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

AS said:

quote:

I wondered because you don't seem to even entertain the other side of global warming.


I absolutely entertain both sides of the issue, I just draw a line in the sand between hard data and opinion/conjecture. I am responding here to specific claims, and I feel I have replied with facts and where necessary supplied primary sources. If you have an "other side" to any of these sources I would be happy to discuss. If you want to know my opinion about other elements to the AGW issue I would be happy to clarify, you only need to ask.

quote:

Media misrepresentation, sensationalism, and propaganda is in the eye of the beholder.


No, I'm pretty sure it could be identified by anyone who put in the time to research a story back to its primary source, examine the actual data and understand any opposing perspectives. That's not to say that it doesn't happen on both sides of the AGW issue - it does. I am happy to examine these also if anyone wishes to post an example.

quote:

As for those energy giants emails, you don't actually believe you have privy to everything they email, do you? You aren't that naive, are you?


The only emails I am privy to are the ones between staff of the Climate Research Unit discussing their relationship and business agreements with Shell, BP and Esso. I'm not sure which emails you are referring to.

quote:

If error is to be made, I would rather it be made on the side that protects the Earth rather than raping it.


First let me say again that I absolutely agree about increased funding to new energy technologies and green alternatives. In my opinion this is the only way forward for the human race. But we won't get there by exaggerating and over-hyping and the AGW issue. This, in my opinion, is what has led to the current controversies and drops in public support that is allowing other interests to take advantage of the situation.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."