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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1220
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 8:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Hi Miaree,

That's probably right about the ozone hole. Regarding the new study, my understanding is that the authors used a method of deducing possible temperatures for locations over a time period when no weather stations or satellites existed. It's an experimental method that should not be confused with an actual temperature record.

Also, the new study does not contradict the cooling trend observed over the majority of east antarctica over the last 30 years. It simply attempts to show by experimental method that the region may have been cooler than today if you extend the timeline back to 50 years before present.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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The Watcher
Senior Member
Username: the_watcher

Post Number: 3244
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 3:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Here is one thing the global warming denialists cannot explain away (winking at Chr)
http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=97373&feedType=VideoRSS&feedName=Envir onment&videoChannel=74

Before, hanging by a thread, now hanging by a filament. A "disturbing" pattern seen all across antartica. Coastal cities like London will have to build a wall 25 or more meters high or be inundated.
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1221
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 8:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Always the ray of sunshine, Watcher. I have often thought you would enjoy the song, Apocalypse Please by Muse.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1222
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2009 - 11:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Whoops, just realised I repeated a link above. This is the new study's claim of the Antarctic 50 year trend.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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The Watcher
Senior Member
Username: the_watcher

Post Number: 3255
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Friday, January 23, 2009 - 7:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

In any event, hope you can swim, paddle a canoe....maybe someone will be charitable and throw you an inner tube or a life raft. You may wanna check out life jackets, as I doubt many will have sympathy for you. Good luck
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1223
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Friday, January 23, 2009 - 8:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Yep, that's just about what i thought you'd say. Peace, Watcher.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1227
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 - 8:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

La Nina weakening, says WMO

Geneva - La Nina, the weather phenomenon that has been blamed for icy conditions that claimed dozens of lives across Europe since November last year, is weakening, the World Meteorological Organisation said on Tuesday.

La Nina is produced by cooler surface water temperatures in the Pacific Ocean and, like its Pacific sibling El Nino, is credited with upsetting climate patterns around the world.

"As these conditions weaken, the outlook for March-May 2009 is for 'neutral' conditions to be the most likely outcome," the UN's weather agency said in a statement.

However, forecasts for the remainder of this year were "very uncertain" at the moment, the statement added.

The average global temperature for 2008 was slightly lower than any other year since 2000, due partly to La Nina, according to the WMO.

In December, "unusually cold" sea-surface temperatures of over 0.5 degrees Celsius below normal temperatures were recorded in the central and eastern equatorial Pacific.

In 2007, the WMO linked the La Nina climate pattern to a long-running drought in Australia.
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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miaree9
Senior Member
Username: miaree9

Post Number: 2501
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 9:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Antarctica's Glaciers Melting Faster Than First Thought.
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sonorK
Senior Member
Username: sonork

Post Number: 906
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 3:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Arctic Sea Ice Underestimated Due to Faulty Sensor

nah-nah-nanna
Universal Health Care: The DMV with wounds.
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sonorK
Senior Member
Username: sonork

Post Number: 907
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 5:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Climate science is 'ancient astrology', claims report
Universal Health Care: The DMV with wounds.
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flux
Senior Member
Username: flux

Post Number: 712
Registered: 3-2002
Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 5:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

In the meantime the meltdown takes place.
The most pressing one has nothing to do with ice!
It does keep another controversy to otherwise occupy the masses though, doesn't it!

When are we gonna declare war on ice? That battle should last quite a while! Hey, it's a matter of national security!!
There are guides who can show you the way. Use them, but they will not satisfy your longing. Keep wanting that connection with all your pulsing energy.
(The Essential Rumi)
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1232
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2009 - 11:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Will be interesting to watch Antarctica. I don't think anyone is really sure what should be happening down there. I've read AGW reports that took credit for Antarctic cooling, now they'll happily take credit for suspected warming. Nice work, if you can get it. lol.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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a brother
Advanced Member
Username: upaava

Post Number: 450
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 2:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Ngungu'taota, Tutskwa I'qatsi,

Climate warming is real, but not for the reasons that have been put forth thus far. Some scientists have noted that greenhouse gases cannot adequately explain what is happening; but no other theory has yet been provided to the public.

Something unknown to most scientists, but known to many indigenous peoples, is occurring deep within the heart of the Earth, which is the true cause of the changes being noted-- including the increasing number and intensity of earthquake and volcanic activity which cannot be explained by the greenhouse effect.

Our Earth Mother is in labor to birth Her Core-Egg as She has done in previous Purification cycles (also occurring in the other worlds of our system). As explained in Earth Mother our Womb of Life:

"...As earlier discussed, our Earth Mother is now in labor to birth Her Core. The cradle of the changes in the world’s climate is the Weddell Sea in West Antarctica. The Weddell Sea is the Earth’s yoni (birth canal), the point where Her Core will come out. So understandably there is a lot of activity going on under the Weddell Sea floor as the Earth’s time to give birth draws nearer.

The heat produced by the Earth’s inner laboring rises to the surface through Her birth canal into the Antarctic where the atmosphere and ocean currents there are altered. This is the true cause of global warming, not greenhouse gases which cannot adequately explain the rising earthquake and volcanic activity in the world.

The global warming and other Earth changes would be occurring even if we were not an industrial, fossil fuel driven culture. Science does not always correctly distinguish between environmental changes which are caused by nature, and those which are caused by man. The warming which is melting the ice shelves in West Antarctica is one case of mistaken identity.

The world climate is very sensitive to the extent of the winter sea ice which normally increases during winter. Sea ice insulates the ocean from the atmosphere, stabilizes the surface water, and maintains a balanced Antarctic atmosphere. A balanced Antarctic atmosphere is important to a balanced world atmosphere. Lately, the Antarctic atmosphere has been increasingly agitated. Higher than normal (and climbing) ocean temperatures (emanating from the Core) and rapidly melting ice is disturbing the atmosphere.

Less sea ice results in reduced reflection and insulation; this has a direct effect on the Antarctic atmosphere, causing local weather changes which impact on the world’s climate. In other words, the sea ice pack stabilizes ocean conditions, and stable ocean conditions maintain a stable world atmosphere. Previously, stable polar conditions exerted a balancing influence over the Earth’s climate. Now, with the heat rising from the Core, increasing temperatures in the Antarctic translate into large fluctuations in world temperatures, as well as typhoons, hurricanes, and tornadoes.

Presently, the amount of heat lost to the Antarctic atmosphere is significant. The greatest consistent rise in temperature in the Southern Hemisphere is taking place in the vicinity of the Weddell Sea where the meteorological records of the British Antarctic Survey, Faraday Research Station, show a rise in mean annual air temperature of 2.5 °C. Though this figure may appear small, in terms of the affect on sea ice and the atmosphere it is great.

The mystery of the changing world climate is not really a mystery, and man is not to be blamed. A butterfly is flapping its wings in Antarctica.

Between now and the birth of the Core the weather will become more unpredictable as our Earth’s birth pains intensify. There will be more earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, and severe storms, as our Earth Mother nears the time to birth Her Egg, as well as secondary effects from the geological upheavals, the warming of the oceans and permafrost, and changes in solar energy output during this period..."

The turmoil ahead is best put in perspective by understanding that this cycle is natural, and has occurred in our system before. Each cycle progresses the life upon our worlds, which for us will be our final step from Homo sapiens to what the Q'ero call Homo luminous. My native father liked the term psychiatrist Carl Jung used: Homo maximus, greatest man. This is the destiny awaiting those who hold fast to our Mother Earth, rejecting all overtures to abandon Her, which will soon be put forth.

If we will trust in our Earth Mother one more time, we will receive Her greatest reward.

naawakna nihqe kyaptsita,
upaava - your brother

(Message edited by upaava on February 27, 2009)
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xretsim
Senior Member
Username: xretsim

Post Number: 940
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 6:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

those who believe in global warming are saying it is a natural phenomenon, but that human activity is contributing.

it's not even debatable that human activity produces quite a bit of heat. what the experts argue over is how much that heat is contributing to the very real and deadly process of global warming. to say it's going to happen (eventually) anyway is not an argument for not trying to lighten our load on the environment, and (possibly) slow the process down.
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a brother
Advanced Member
Username: upaava

Post Number: 451
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2009 - 4:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Nakwa xretsim, Land is Life,

It is always right to help our world in every way we can, which also means taking care of its life, beginning with those around us in our communities, and outward to the world.

To help our world in any way means personal sacrifice, setting a personal example, especially with those things that we can do: are we eliminating the use of toxic chemicals? are we recycling? are we not contributing to the destruction of the rain forests, and other virgin areas through the products we buy? are we helping care for the poor, the underprivileged, the elderly and physically and mentally disabled?

We cannot do those things by spending our time debating on the Internet. They require our time and energies in the real world. Visiting the Internet can help awaken us, but ultimately we are needed out in our communities, and where ever else we can be fully present to give aid and comfort where it is required.

We cannot alter our Earth's birth pains, as She labors to birth Her Egg-- this is a natural cycle which helps all life. When we understand this cycle is natural and necessary we cooperate with it rather than fearing it. That means releasing fear and other negative attitudes and emotions, opening ourselves to greater love and compassion toward our world and all the life upon it-- all our relations.

This is a time of change and it will be well for us to recognize the opportunity lying before us, making good use of this period to benefit ourselves and the rest of our hoop of life, which begins with a greater appreciation of our mother world-- Earth-- and our deep connections to Her.

naawakna nihqe kyaptsita - with love and respect,
upaava - your brother
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sonorK
Senior Member
Username: sonork

Post Number: 910
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 3:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

"it's not even debatable that...." I love that line and others like it.

"The debate is over." The debate will never be over as long as humans keep making sensors that lie and die. As long as humans keep finding things they have been wrong about for a long time.

Any biologic activity, whether it's human or not, produces heat of some kind.

We get side-tracked by political goofs lamenting the levels of CO2 in the atmosphere.

Just how much of our atmosphere is CO2? 0.0384%

How much are humans responsible for? Approximately 3.2% of 0.0384% - which is 0.0012288% of what is there.

So, if a butterfly in China hits the windshield of Tata truck hauling coal, does it really make a difference? No.

Reduce, reuse, recycle and use your brain.
Universal Health Care: The DMV with wounds.
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The Watcher
Senior Member
Username: the_watcher

Post Number: 3419
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2009 - 4:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Sonork, the new environmental expert. If brains were rain, you'd be a dessert.

Speaking of desserts, I hope those of you who live in the south west took measures to ensure a supply of drinking water. World wide droughts are occuring as the winter from hell will just not go away here, the results being severe shortages of water and food, which will result in mass starvation and a likely huge spike in the price of food, while those who can pay will live and those who cannot will dehydrate and starve. http://www.marketskeptics.com/2009/02/2009-global-food-catastrophe.html
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anna
Senior Member
Username: anna

Post Number: 1818
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 1:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

You meant "desert", the dry places right?

Not dessert, the high fat chocolate places???

Yum. Stash chocolate.... :-)
Be the wave....
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sonorK
Senior Member
Username: sonork

Post Number: 911
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 4:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I'm a dessert..... good one, hero.

Never said I was an expert. Just an environmental scientist. Of course, it doesn't take a PhD to know that Hansen is a goof and you're a troll.
Universal Health Care: The DMV with wounds.
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The Watcher
Senior Member
Username: the_watcher

Post Number: 3424
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 4:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Gees, I googled desert and got recipes, so I tossed in the extra s. Evian when spelled backwards in naive, and those people who live in the south west had better start to stock pile some supply of drinking water, because the world wide droughts, I have heard, will cause your well water to dry up in a very short time

Meanwhile, millions of people will starve and wars break out all over the world as 2009 as demand far outweighs supply, and the dominant ideology "you can't pay, so you go without" will be the rule

No doubt about it, things are going from bad to worse and a great day of reckoning is about to befall america. Wait until the oceans rise marine life starts to become extinct, as we over fish the oceans and acidify them by converting coal into gas, which adds three times as many carbon emissions into our atmosphere than current sources of energy. The global warming denialists had better home they can swim well, and eat lint of their carpets if they wish to avoid starvation.
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miaree9
Senior Member
Username: miaree9

Post Number: 2517
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 7:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Hmmm. If sonorK were a dessert, I think he'd be something really tangy and delicious like lemon meringue pie.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. My apologies.
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1233
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Sunday, March 01, 2009 - 10:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Vivid imagery as always, Watcher. I'm taste testing my carpet lint as I write this. Mmmmmm, salty.

xretism said

quote:

those who believe in global warming are saying it is a natural phenomenon, but that human activity is contributing.


If that was the extent of what was being claimed I for one would have no argument with it, nor with taking reasonable precautions to lesson our potential impact. What I take exception to is the claim that human influence is now "overwhelming" natural forcings. I believe this is a dangerous statement because I don't see that there is sufficient evidence to support it. I still think it's a good idea to lessen our impact regardless, but at the same time I feel that it is both unethical and short-sighted to overplay the level of certainty that exists.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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sonorK
Senior Member
Username: sonork

Post Number: 912
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 10:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

So Watcher is now the 'new environmental expert'.... at least you know how to use Google.

Chris, I agree that it is a dangerous statement. Most of mankind's biggest mistakes stem from them thinking we are truly important in the scheme of things.

And we've got the UN's IPCC leading the charge (and getting folks like Watcher crying "DOOM!").

The IPCC is an embarrassment and should be disbanded. This paragraph from their 'charter' speaks volumes.

ROLE

2. The role of the IPCC is to a22e22 (had to add the 2's due to the filter) on a comprehensive, objective, open and transparent basis the scientific, technical and socio-economic information relevant to understanding the scientific basis of risk of human-induced climate change, its potential impacts and options for adaptation and mitigation. IPCC reports should be neutral with respect to policy, although they may need to deal objectively with scientific,technical and socio-economic factors relevant to the application of particular policies.

They 'settled the debate' before they even started it.

Watcher, I bolded the important part so you could find it easily.

Miaree - I was thinking something more along the lines of a flaming creme brulee.
Universal Health Care: The DMV with wounds.
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Lassen Sage
Senior Member
Username: lassen_sage

Post Number: 706
Registered: 5-2008
Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 6:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Carpet lint for dessert somewhere in the desert? Sounds kind of nitty gritty to me...

Don't mind me,,I'm just looking around for weather reports...Buckets of rain here instead of snow this wk...
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susi t
Senior Member
Username: just_visiting

Post Number: 2457
Registered: 8-2008
Posted on Monday, March 02, 2009 - 9:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

i'm with brother. i believe the large percentage of environmental warming is due to natural earth changes.

by a smaller percentage, man/industry/environmental disaster, facilitates it.
i carry my own church within me.
-lame deer

`
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1245
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 1:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Hey all. This was kind of fun last year. Arctic Ice has begun its seasonal decline. At the moment we are tracking just a little beneath 2008 levels. Anyone want to hazard a guess to where it will bottom out in relation to previous years?

AMSR-E Sea Ice Extent

I'll probably regret this early prediction, but my best guess is that 2009 will bottom out somewhere above (as in more ice than) both 2007 and 2008. I'm basing this prediction on the current states of the PDO and AMO, and also recent changes in Arctic circulation away from the pattern seen in recent years that caused sea ice to drift apart. I'll also add the addendum that even if I'm correct and we see two consecutive years of ice growth, the powers that be will still find a way to use the word "accelerating" to describe the trend in overall ice loss.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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sonorK
Senior Member
Username: sonork

Post Number: 993
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 8:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Is that with or without the 'fading' sensor?
Universal Health Care: The DMV with wounds.
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1246
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 5:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Lol. AMSR is unaffected by the sensor problem I believe, but that is why I switched over from NSIDC.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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Michael Dennie
New member
Username: cosmicguard

Post Number: 1
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Saturday, April 04, 2009 - 2:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I am kind of new here so please bear with me....

Watcher you wrote...."Here is one thing the global warming denialists cannot explain away (winking at Chr)" Well I can explain this one. David Vaughan is a member of the IPCC.This is the same IPCC that doctored its report in October 2008 so they could justify their doctrine of gloom.

Anyway, I believe that this is nothing more than a cycle. We have just come out of a mini ice age, about 150 years ago, and of course things are going to warm up.

Let me leave you a few links that deal with the main topics of global warming, CO2 and the rising oceans.

http://icecap.us/index.php/go/joes-blog/arctic_ice_increasing_rapidly/

http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/2007/2007_20-29/2007-25/pdf/33-37_725.pdf

http://www.rocketscientistsjournal.com/2006/10/co2_acquittal.html

http://www.skepticalscience.com/water-vapor-greenhouse-gas.htm

Mike
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wolfshadow
Senior Member
Username: wolfshadow

Post Number: 917
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Saturday, April 04, 2009 - 2:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Michael welcome to the board


http://www.reuters.com/article/environmentNews/idUSTRE5326HO20090403
We are all in the same boat,going up the same creek without a paddle
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miaree9
Senior Member
Username: miaree9

Post Number: 2731
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 04, 2009 - 4:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Michael Dennie, I see from your profile that you have actually been a member here longer than I. Therefore, I shall say that it is wonderful to see you actively posting here!
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Michael Dennie
New member
Username: cosmicguard

Post Number: 2
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 9:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Thanks wolfshadow and miaree, I think I'll be post more from now on.

This topic is a topic I think most people don't know anything about but will follow blindly what they are told told by people like Al Gore or organizations like the IPCC.

I am an archaeologist by trade but love to dabble in all aspects of science. What gets me the most upset is the haphazard science used to claim the world is heating up and we are all going to die. Many of these scientists that advocate this are the same scientist that stated we are heading for a global ice age, 30 years ago. If I used random figures, questionable figures,questionable fact gathering methods, and over skewed computer models in my field I would of been out of a job years ago.

Global warming is not a scientific issue but a political issue. It's about the haves wanting to control the resources, and doling it out to the very poor, as they see fit. It's all about the rich getting richer and everyone else serving them. And the scientist that do go along with this are nothing more than propagandists who keep spreadilie It was Joseph Goebbels who said...“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
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Michael Dennie
New member
Username: cosmicguard

Post Number: 3
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 10:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I forgot to leave this link in my last post.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008220
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animalspirits
Senior Member
Username: animalspiritstalstarcom

Post Number: 4602
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 10:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Study: Arctic Sea Ice Melting Faster Than Expected

Antarctic ice shelf half the size of Scotland on verge of collapse
Understand that all things are sacred--yet nothing is sacred.

~Yotee Coyote
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1247
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 12:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Wow, dueling links. Love it.

There are well funded disinformation campaigns on both sides of this, so I generally prefer to look at the actual data where available.

Regarding Antarctic Sea Ice, levels are currently well above average.

The ice-shelf in question (Wordie) is part of the very most northern reaching tip of Antarctica. This is the one region of the continent that has seen moderate warming, most of which has been linked to warmer water surrounding the Antarctic Peninsula. It's also the location from which most of the Antarctic/melt/doom articles get their source material.

However, let's be clear about Wordie's relative size in comparison to the entire continent. Now compare to, say, the size of Scotland.

And regarding Arctic Sea Ice, it will be very interesting to see what happens this season. AS looks like she may be betting against my prediction for another year of growth, or at least the article posted strongly suggests it. I'm still happy to bet my (admittedly) limited understanding of ocean cycles over computer model projections. I suppose time will tell.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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a brother
Advanced Member
Username: upaava

Post Number: 484
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 10:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Ngungu'taota, Tutskwa I'qatsi,

The conflict between scientists concerning global warming is occurring because both camps are correct: changing climate, weather and storms are occurring, but not from human causes; our Earth Mother is laboring to birth Her egg which is affecting Antarctic sea temperatures, ocean currents, and the Antarctic atmosphere.

Deep within the Earth the Core is readying to be birthed, as are the cores of the other worlds of our system (as noted by scientists such as Richard Hoagland and others who have described changes going on within our entire solar system).

In fact, greenhouse gases cannot explain why earthquake and volcanic activity are on the rise. All the above effects are from the Earth's laboring to birth Her egg, which will increase in number and severity as the time for Her Core-Egg to be ejected draws nearer.

Sometime soon, the truth will be announced in deceptive ways, so as to cause fear of remaining upon our Earth Mother. Another announcement will also be proclaimed around the world, to whit, that a new discovery has been made related to time (as direction), providing a new place for us to go (deserting our world and its natural, calendar time) where our lives will be prolonged and there is amazing technology. How lucky we are that this discovery will be made, since (they will tell us) that the Earth's core is about to emerge and destroy all of us.

When you see these announcements come about do not be deceived. Our World is not about to be destroyed, but to be raised to new heights, and all of us (who remain) along with Her-- the Hopi Fifth World, the Q'ero-Incan's Homo luminous, man of light.

If we will reject all the lures to remove us from the Earth to the new time-frame (snares), and the fears meant to drive us there, all will be well when this purification cycle is finished.

The bottom line is to remain stronghearted, faithfully trusting in our Mother Earth through all of the trials and temptations to come.

You can read through the "Introduction" page of the following website to review the native perspective on these matters:
http://thebeloveddisciple.org/index.html

naawakna nihqe kyaptsita,
upaava

(Message edited by upaava on April 06, 2009)
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erBinn
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Username: erbium

Post Number: 239
Registered: 6-2008
Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 10:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Thank you a brother, Ive been paying close attention to volcanic and earthquake activity lately....Im sitting in class right now, not knowing what I am doing here...I feel I should be preparing and warning people!
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a brother
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Username: upaava

Post Number: 485
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 11:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Nakwa erBinn, Tutskwa I'qatsi,

My brother or sister, it is good to do your best with all of the responsibilities you have; good to learn to focus upon one thing at a time with your emotions as calm and under control as possible. This will help prepare you to act wisely no matter what conditions prevail.

If visiting this website is disturbing your peace of mind, it may be best to spend less time here and other such places, taking some "time off" so you can stay grounded in your other affairs of life.

So, get back to class and do the best you can there and the other work you have before you. Knowledge is good to have, but control of yourself and staying in-balance are better still. :-)

with love and respect,
your brother
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erBinn
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Username: erbium

Post Number: 241
Registered: 6-2008
Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 3:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

a brother, thanks my whole class today was out of sorts so we decided in unison to close the books, and we all grouped together and shared stories of spiritual experiences...it turned out well!
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a brother
Advanced Member
Username: upaava

Post Number: 486
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 5:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Nakwa erBinn, Land is Life,

It sounds like you had a kind of reverse koyaanisqatsi, where the balance-of-life (including the normally devalued spiritual part) was restored.

It is good to reach for spiritual heights, but remember to keep your feet firmly grounded upon Mother Earth :-)

love and respect,
upaava
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miaree9
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Username: miaree9

Post Number: 2934
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Saturday, May 09, 2009 - 7:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I didn't want to start a new thread, but I did want to see if anyone knew anything more about this: The first evacuation of an entire community due to manmade global warming is happening on the Carteret Islands.
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Chr15t05
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Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1249
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Saturday, May 09, 2009 - 8:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Hey Miaree.

The article you posted omits or breezes over several important factors. The first, which it does at least reference, is the destruction of mangrove forests, which used to protect the islands from tidal surges. The second, which it likewise references only in passing, is that recent tectonic movement has made the volcanic mount the islands sit upon unstable. The third factor, not mentioned in the article, is that recent dynamite fishing has significantly degraded the islands' coral reefs, which along with mangrove forests used to provide them far better protection against tides.

Of course, it is possible to be aware of the above and decide that these three factors must still be secondary to overall sea-level rise. However, where is gets more complicated is the fact that Bougainville, which as the article mentions is the Islands' closest neighbour, has not recorded a similar rise. Because of this it is difficult for me to reconcile that sea level rises are primarily responsible for the islands' possible evacuation. I do, however, believe that this is what we will be sold if it does occur.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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miaree9
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Username: miaree9

Post Number: 2935
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Saturday, May 09, 2009 - 9:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Much obliged for the prompt response, Chris.

I was unfamiliar with these islands and the details of why the evacuation of the inhabitants became necessary. However, the whole 'man-made global warming' slant of the article seemed worrisome to me. The brief information you have given me tells a tale of greater complexity. I've got some catch-up reading to do when I find the time.
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Skin Shed Mon
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Username: shedmyskin

Post Number: 1748
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Tuesday, June 09, 2009 - 9:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

31,000 scientists say you are wrong Al Gore

Statement of Congressman Ron Paul

United States House of Representatives


Statement on Global Warming Petition Signed by 31,478 Scientists

June 4, 2009

Mr. PAUL. Madam Speaker, before voting on the ``cap-and-trade'' legislation, my colleagues should consider the views expressed in the following petition that has been signed by 31,478 American scientists:
``We urge the United States government to reject the global warming agreement that was written in Kyoto, Japan in December, 1997, and any other similar proposals. The proposed limits on greenhouse gases would harm the environment, hinder the advance of science and technology, and damage the health and welfare of mankind.
There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gases is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere and disruption of the Earth's climate. Moreover, there is substantial scientific evidence that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many beneficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments of the Earth.''
Circulated through the mail by a distinguished group of American physical scientists and supported by a definitive review of the peer-reviewed scientific literature, this may be the strongest and most widely supported statement on this subject that has been made by the scientific community. A state-by-state listing of the signers, which include 9,029 men and women with PhD degrees, a listing of their academic specialties, and a peer-reviewed summary of the science on this subject are available at www.petitionproiect.org.
The peer-reviewed summary, ``Environmental Effects of Increased Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide'' by A. B. Robinson, N. E. Robinson, and W. Soon includes 132 references to the scientific literature and was circulated with the petition.
Signers of this petition include 3,803 with specific training in atmospheric, earth, and environmental sciences. All 31,478 of the signers have the necessary training in physics, chemistry, and mathematics to understand and evaluate the scientific data relevant to the human-caused global warming hypothesis and to the effects of human activities upon environmental quality.
In a letter circulated with this petition, Frederick Seitz--past President of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, President Emeritus of Rockefeller University, and recipient of honorary doctorate degrees from 32 universities throughout the world--wrote:
``The United States is very close to adopting an international agreement that would ration the use of energy and of technologies that depend upon coal, oil, and natural gas and some other organic compounds.
This treaty is, in our opinion, based upon flawed ideas. Research data on climate change do not show that human use of hydrocarbons is harmful. To the contrary, there is good evidence that increased atmospheric carbon dioxide is environmentally helpful.
The proposed agreement we have very negative effects upon the technology of nations throughout the world; especially those that are currently attempting to lift from poverty and provide opportunities to the over 4 billion people in technologically underdeveloped countries.
It is especially important for America to hear from its citizens who have the training necessary to evaluate the relevant data and offer sound advice.''
We urge you to sign and return the enclosed petition card. If you would like more cards for use by your colleagues, these will be sent.''
Madam Speaker, at a time when our nation is faced with a severe shortage of domestically produced energy and a serious economic contraction; we should be reducing the taxation and regulation that plagues our energy-producing industries.
Yet, we will soon be considering so-called ``cap and trade'' legislation that would increase the taxation and regulation of our energy industries. ``Cap and-trade'' will do at least as much, if not more, damage to the economy as the treaty referred by Professor Seitz! This legislation is being supported by the claims of ``global warming'' and ``climate change'' advocates--claims that, as demonstrated by the 31,477 signatures to Professor Seitz' petition, many American scientists believe is disproved by extensive experimental and observational work.
It is time that we look beyond those few who seek increased taxation and increased
[Page: E1325] GPO's PDFregulation and control of the American people. Our energy policies must be based upon scientific truth--not fictional movies or self-interested international agendas. They should be based upon the accomplishments of technological free enterprise that have provided our modern civilization, including our energy industries. That free enterprise must not be hindered by bogus claims about imaginary disasters.
Above all, we must never forget our contract with the American people--the Constitution that provides the sole source of legitimacy of our government. That Constitution requires that we preserve the basic human rights of our people--including the right to freely manufacture, use, and sell energy produced by any means they devise--including nuclear, hydrocarbon, solar, wind, or even bicycle generators.
While it is evident that the human right to produce and use energy does not extend to activities that actually endanger the climate of the Earth upon which we all depend, bogus claims about climate dangers should not be used as a justification to further limit the American people's freedom.
In conclusion, I once again urge my colleagues to carefully consider the arguments made by the 31,478 American scientists who have signed this petition before voting on any legislation imposing new regulations or taxes on the American people in the name of halting climate change.
Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -George Washington
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a brother
Senior Member
Username: upaava

Post Number: 561
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Tuesday, June 09, 2009 - 9:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Ngungu'taota (greetings we are relatives), Tutskwa I'qatsi (Land and Life are One),

According to the knowledge of my people, long before the warming we are seeing was noticeable, we knew that our Earth Mother's time to birth Her egg would return at the end of what we call this Fourth World. The scientists that say our warming is real but not due to greenhouse gases are agreeing with us.

The question left unsaid by the scientists in the letter is: if greenhoiuse gases are not responsible for the obvious warming that has been melting glaciers, ice shelves, and the continuing warming trend, then what is the cause?

The answer to the above question lies at the heart of the many discussions on this website. It involves our Earth Mother and how nature is moving life forward within creation, together with those forces that serve the Great Spirit, and those who live in opposition, only interested in serving themselves.

Soon, the truth that our Earth is in process of birthing Her egg will be announced to the world, but it will not be done honestly. It will be presented fearfully to drive us away from our Earth Mother, who is about to complete our development with Her, as She flies to the place of the Fifth World.

Itupkom nihqe i'siwata, to find the truth go out into nature, to one of the Earth's many pristine places-- the forests, mountains, lakes and rivers, deserts, or oceans where She can speak to your hearts about our deep relationship to Her. Look for Her signs around you and in your dreams, so that no inducements can tear us apart.

umumi pam taaviningwu - may the sun always shine upon you,
upaava - your brother
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Skin Shed Mon
Senior Member
Username: shedmyskin

Post Number: 1750
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Tuesday, June 09, 2009 - 1:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

great post brother. My post was definatly not to say changes are not happening. They are indeed.

peace
Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -George Washington
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esoterica
Senior Member
Username: esoterica

Post Number: 663
Registered: 9-2007
Posted on Tuesday, June 09, 2009 - 2:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

raising my head from the grindstone just long enough to say:

1) there is something wrong with the sunshine - too much uv or whatever, or maybe i'm becoming nocturnal after my near-nde? - this new addition/change to the sunlight is hurting my eyes like it never has before, and i don't like wearing sunglasses everytime i have to step outside the studio

2) if this weird sunlight and colder winters/hotter summers persist, i fear i shall have to move somewhere other than north alabama

is there someplace where the temperature is held in check yearround? - i miss the permanent cloud cover of the firmament before it rained out - any places with permanent cloud cover 365/24/7 with nice temperature spread, say 60-70 besides upslope rain forest?

edit: i spend 99% of my life inside as i am allergic to everything but air, yet there are times you just have to leave the nice artificial environment and brave the big raw world - if there was such a nice place outside, i could go out more


(Message edited by esoterica on June 09, 2009)
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Skin Shed Mon
Senior Member
Username: shedmyskin

Post Number: 1753
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Tuesday, June 09, 2009 - 2:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

esoterica, I burn something wicked the last few years. I used to barely burn when I was younger. I am only 31 years old now, so I don't think im gettting real old and thats why. Not sure if age even comes into play anyway. The sun feels more intense I agree.

Even just 10 years ago I would never ever wear sun block and would get a very slight burn and 2 days later if still exposed. I am one of those french people who would just get real dark and not red...now I get red, real red real fast too.
Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -George Washington
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xretsim
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Username: xretsim

Post Number: 1036
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 4:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

> 31,000 scientists say you are wrong Al Gore.

well, then they are 31,000 morons.

183 countries have signed and ratified the kyoto protocol (there are 192 members of the united nations).

are we all wrong and you right? somehow i don't think so.
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Skin Shed Mon
Senior Member
Username: shedmyskin

Post Number: 1756
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 6:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

A majority doesn't make a right. What politicians sign onto has no bearing on scientific facts.
Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -George Washington
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Skin Shed Mon
Senior Member
Username: shedmyskin

Post Number: 1757
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 6:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

* Hendrik Tennekes, retired Director of Research, Royal Netherlands Meteorological Institute: "The blind adherence to the harebrained idea that climate models can generate 'realistic' simulations of climate is the principal reason why I remain a climate skeptic. From my background in turbulence I look forward with grim anticipation to the day that climate models will run with a horizontal resolution of less than a kilometer. The horrible predictability problems of turbulent flows then will descend on climate science with a vengeance."


* Antonino Zichichi, emeritus professor of nuclear physics at the University of Bologna and president of the World Federation of Scientists : "models used by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) are incoherent and invalid from a scientific point of view".


Robert M. Carter, geologist, researcher at the Marine Geophysical Laboratory at James Cook University in Australia: "the accepted global average temperature statistics used by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change show that no ground-based warming has occurred since 1998 ... there is every doubt whether any global warming at all is occurring at the moment, let alone human-caused warming."

Khabibullo Abdusamatov, mathematician and astronomer at Pulkovskaya Observatory of the Russian Academy of Sciences: "Global warming results not from the emission of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, but from an unusually high level of solar radiation and a lengthy - almost throughout the last century - growth in its intensity...Ascribing 'greenhouse' effect properties to the Earth's atmosphere is not scientifically substantiated...Heated greenhouse gases, which become lighter as a result of expansion, ascend to the atmosphere only to give the absorbed heat away.

Ian Clark, hydrogeologist, professor, Department of Earth Sciences, University of Ottawa: "That portion of the scientific community that attributes climate warming to CO2 relies on the hypothesis that increasing CO2, which is in fact a minor greenhouse gas, triggers a much larger water vapour response to warm the atmosphere. This mechanism has never been tested scientifically beyond the mathematical models that predict extensive warming, and are confounded by the complexity of cloud formation - which has a cooling effect. ... We know that [the sun] was responsible for climate change in the past, and so is clearly going to play the lead role in present and future climate change. And interestingly... solar activity has recently begun a downward cycle."

damn those americans!!
Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -George Washington
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xretsim
Senior Member
Username: xretsim

Post Number: 1040
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 6:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

>A majority doesn't make a right. What politicians
>sign onto has no bearing on scientific facts.

you don't just sign something like that. they wouldn't know what they were looking at without help from their own experts.

(Message edited by xretsim on June 10, 2009)
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xretsim
Senior Member
Username: xretsim

Post Number: 1041
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 6:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

That “petition” is a complete sham:

On the link to the fake, oil funded (read below) petition you provided, there were only 40 climatologists (unverified):

[www.petitionproject.org]

The other 31,032 signers are NOT climatologists. To top that off, zero names identify the field of the signer for a follow up of credentials or published works. The application process is also laughable. ****, I could top it off at 41 climatologists if I wanted to.

Now let’s look further:

The site is run by:

The Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine
Arthur B. Robinson, BS Caltech, PhD UCSD
Professor of Chemistry is the only full-time employee.

[www.realclimate.org]

In its IRS Form 990 form 1999, OISM reported revenues totaling $355,224, most of in the form of contributions from unspecified sources. As president, Arthur Robinson received $16,691 in salary and benefits. OISM listed $945,427 in total assets, $735,888 of which was in the form of land, buildings and equipment. By 2005, OISM reported $1.0M in revenue and $2.8M in assets.

The Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine (OISM) describes itself as “a small research institute” that studies “biochemistry, diagnostic medicine, nutrition, preventive medicine and the molecular biology of aging.” It is headed by Arthur B. Robinson, an eccentric scientist who has a long history of controversial entanglements with figures on the fringe of accepted research. OISM also markets a home-schooling kit for “parents concerned about socialism in the public schools” and publishes books on how to survive nuclear war.

Some hilarious points asserted by Robinson include:

“As coal, oil, and natural gas are used to feed and lift from poverty vast numbers of people across the globe, more CO2 will be released into the atmosphere. This will help to maintain and improve the health, longevity, prosperity, and productivity of all people.
Human activities are believed to be responsible for the rise in CO2 level of the atmosphere. Mankind is moving the carbon in coal, oil, and natural gas from below ground to the atmosphere and surface, where it is available for conversion into living things. We are living in an increasingly lush environment of plants and animals as a result of the CO2 increase. Our children will enjoy an Earth with far more plant and animal life as [sic] that with which we now are blessed. This is a wonderful and unexpected gift from the Industrial Revolution.”

Did I also mention he is a avowed Christian nut-case?

Enough about him…the real man behind the curtain in this “Oregon Petition” project is Frederick Seitz:

“In 1998, Seitz wrote and circulated a letter, asking scientists to sign a petition asking the Government to reject the Kyoto Protocol. Seitz signed the letter and identified himself as a former president of the National Academy of Sciences. He also directed attention to a report by Dr. Arthur Robinson, which concluded that carbon dioxide posed no threat to climate. The report was not peer-reviewed, but was formatted to look like an NAS journal article. The NAS later issued a statement disassociating itself from the petition and the article.”

Another nice tidbit:

He founded the George C. Marshall Institute. The institute has, in order to resist and delay regulation, lobbied politically to create a false public perception of scientific uncertainty over the negative health effects of second-hand smoke, the carcinogenic nature of tobacco smoking, and on the evidence between CFCs and ozone depletion.

Between 1985 and 2001, the institute received $5.5m in funding from five foundations, including the Earhart Foundation, Sarah Scaife Foundation and Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation.

Guess who those guys are? BIG OIL!

In 1999, George C. Marshall Institute received grants from the Exxon Education Foundation. The institute’s CEO William O’Keefe, formerly an executive at the American Petroleum Institute and chairman of the Global Climate Coalition, is a registered lobbyist for ExxonMobil. The GMI was described in a 2007 report by the Union of Concerned Scientists as an ExxonMobil-funded “clearinghouse for global warming contrarians”. ExxonMobil still currently provides funds to the Institute.


(last comment on following page):
http://features.csmonitor.com/environment/2008/05/01/a-10-year-timeout-for-globa l-warming-study-says/
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xretsim
Senior Member
Username: xretsim

Post Number: 1042
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 7:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

no idea if he's right about all that, but it sounds pretty interesting.
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Skin Shed Mon
Senior Member
Username: shedmyskin

Post Number: 1767
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Thursday, June 11, 2009 - 9:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

yes it is interesting. thank you for sharing. I don't disbelieve the climate is changing. I just don't trust the humans are all to blame people. There is a political agenda there and its obvious to me anyway.

The whole thing is way political on both fronts sadly. People need money to do research and its held over their heads like a carrot from both sides.

From what I've read and seen I still think a majority of change would be going on whether we were driving cars, burning coil and oil or all living in caves with fire and stone wheels.
Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -George Washington
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esoterica
Senior Member
Username: esoterica

Post Number: 671
Registered: 9-2007
Posted on Thursday, June 11, 2009 - 9:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

i keep having trouble with the sunshine - contacted an old friend that works in the 'solar observation' field (intentionally obfuscated) - he said the 'overall spectrum has changed' whatever that means and nobody knows why and that these things happen and it probably has something to do with the spots or the lack of them and that all spectrums change all the time as light changes color and that the spectrum changes during the day but not in space but this is an overall baseline difference - i knew i was right that the sun is different, and probably due the increased energy input to the whole system

(Message edited by esoterica on June 11, 2009)
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animalspirits
Senior Member
Username: animalspiritstalstarcom

Post Number: 4929
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 11, 2009 - 10:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

es,

Can you ask him how the spectrum has changed? I find that interesting.

I feel the changes as well with regard to light.

Thanks.
Understand that all things are sacred--yet nothing is sacred.

~Yotee Coyote
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Skin Shed Mon
Senior Member
Username: shedmyskin

Post Number: 1770
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Thursday, June 11, 2009 - 12:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

that is VERY interesting, thank you for sharing. I agree, I've been feeling the difference for some years now really. Like I said, I've never gotten burnt as bad as I have the last 2 years or so before in my life.
Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -George Washington
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1253
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Thursday, June 11, 2009 - 7:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Skin Shed Mon said:

quote:

The whole thing is way political on both fronts sadly. People need money to do research and its held over their heads like a carrot from both sides.


Well said. Whatever the scientific outcome, I believe this era of climatology will be a fascinating period of study for future generations in a variety of fields. Never before has so much money been thrown at an issue just to either prove or disprove the notion that it is an issue.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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Lassen Sage
Senior Member
Username: lassen_sage

Post Number: 874
Registered: 5-2008
Posted on Thursday, June 11, 2009 - 10:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Cold here today with rain and thunderstorms...Another 40 F June night..I gave up and made a fire.
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Whitley Strieber
Moderator
Username: strieber

Post Number: 434
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2009 - 1:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

The sun is not in a normal state. There is just NO solar activity. A typical solar minimum has about 475 spotless days. This one so far is at around 700, I believe. Solar minima result in cooler weather on earth, which right now is a huge blessing but also a danger because the 'no global warming' crowd will be out there saying do nothing, and when the sun gets rolling again, we will be in a hell of a fix.

No matter what, increasing carbon dioxide remains a problem.
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fortwynt
Senior Member
Username: fortwynt

Post Number: 9157
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2009 - 2:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Well...I for one wouldn't say there is "no" global warming...i think it clearly part of the necessary cycle of change on earth, and any planet for that matter....

of course, one would be quite fickle to not recognize that all the carbon dioxide should have some sort of lasting effect on the atmosphere..but i think it goes without saying it is a combination of things...

regardless of what is causing what, conservation, restoration, and preservation coupled with massive cleanup measures should be taken more seriously.
Amare et sapere vix deo conceditur
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a brother
Senior Member
Username: upaava

Post Number: 569
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2009 - 3:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Ngungu'taota, Tutskwa I'qatsi,

Here is some food for thought from the Earth Mother book about what occurs within our solar system during purification cycles:

"...The cradle of the changes in the world’s climate is the Weddell Sea in West Antarctica. The Weddell Sea is the Earth’s yoni, the point where her Core will come out. So understandably there is a lot of activity going on under the Weddell Sea floor as the Earth’s time to give birth draws nearer. The heat produced by the Earth’s inner laboring rises to the surface through Her birthcanal into the Antarctic where the atmosphere and ocean currents there are altered. This is the true cause of global warming, not greenhouse gases which cannot adequately explain the rising earthquake and volcanic activity in the world. The global warming and other Earth changes would be occurring even if we were not an industrial, fossil fuel driven culture. Science does not always correctly distinguish between environmental changes which are caused by nature, and those which are caused by man. The warming which is melting the ice shelves in West Antarctica is one case of mistaken identity.


The world climate is very sensitive to the extent of the winter sea ice which normally increases during winter. Sea ice insulates the ocean ocean from the atmosphere, stabilizes the surface water, and maintains a balanced Antarctic atmosphere. A balanced Antarctic atmosphere is important to a balanced world atmosphere. Lately, the Antarctic atmosphere has been increasingly agitated. Higher than normal (and climbing) ocean temperatures (emanating from the Core) and rapidly melting ice is disturbing the atmosphere. Less sea ice results in reduced reflection and insulation; this has a direct effect on the Antarctic atmosphere, causing local weather changes which impact on the world’s climate. In other words, the sea ice pack stabilizes ocean conditions, and stable ocean conditions maintain a stable world atmosphere. Previously, stable polar conditions exerted a balancing influence over the Earth’s climate. Now, with the heat rising from the Core, increasing temperatures in the Antarctic translate into large fluctuations in world temperatures, as well as typhoons, hurricanes, and tornadoes.

Presently, the amount of heat lost to the Antarctic atmosphere is significant. The greatest consistent rise in temperature in the Southern Hemisphere is taking place in the vicinity of the Weddell Sea where the meteorological records of the British Antarctic Survey, Faraday Research Station, show a rise in mean annual air temperature of 2.5 °C. Though this figure may appear small, in terms of the affect on sea ice and the atmosphere it is great. The mystery of the changing world climate is not really a mystery, and man is not to be blamed. A butterfly is flapping its wings in Antarctica.

Between now and the birth of the Core the weather will become more unpredictable as our Earth’s birth pains intensify. There will be more earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, and severe storms, as our Earth Mother nears the time to birth Her Egg; as well as secondary effects from the geological upheavals, the warming of the oceans and permafrost, and changes in solar energy output during this period.

For those who remain on the Earth, embracing Her birthing, yes, we will die; but we will then receive our highest life. Dying is as natural as breathing; through life and death we progress toward the Fifth World within God’s plan. Those who hold fast to our Earth through this final Purification will receive their crowning life when She moves up to become the new Morning Star. As stated in the New Testament:

But that which ye have [already] hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations…. And I will give him the morning star. (Rev 2:25-26, 28)..." (p. 72-73)

Many things are happening now within our system as this ancient cycle returns again. Our present scientific knowledge is inadequate to explain what it does not understand, being only able to extrapolate upon its present paradigms of thought.

This is a good time to regain our faith in a greater power than ourselves. When we appreciate that everything we have has been given to us, we humbly bow in gratitude and devotion to that creative power that lies closest to us in our Mother Earth.

naawakna nihqe kyaptsita - with love and respect,
your brother
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fortwynt
Senior Member
Username: fortwynt

Post Number: 9160
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2009 - 3:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

is it possible, brother, that thet introduction of massive quantities of CO2 into the atmosphere is in fact aiding in the speed of the birthing process? Perhaps it has all worked out as it is supposed to in any case, perhaps the earth purposefully has caused man to produce these things.....

I am reminded of the drug "Pitocin/Oxytocin" which doctors commonly give to women about to give birth to "jump start" the contractions.

Could CO2 be the earth's version of Pitocin?
Amare et sapere vix deo conceditur
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a brother
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Username: upaava

Post Number: 571
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2009 - 1:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Nakwa fortwynt, Land is Life,

I'tupko, some of your questions go beyond what I was shown, so I am led to speculate. I do not want the credibility of the knowledge I am sharing to be hurt by my speculations, which may be incorrect.

Having made it clear that the following is my own speculation, I will offer some thought on what you ask. I believe that at various points in our progress we receive help advancing our understanding of natural forces, helping us to "move forward." It may also be, like how children living in an enriched environment extract from it what they are ready to use, we discover what we are then ready to use. In either case, or both, how wisely we use the new knowledge depends upon us. Thus, with the discovery of steam power, electricity, and the internal combustion engine we moved into the Industrial Age, which, by our use, led to toxic wastes and the generation of more and more CO2 and other greenhouse gases.

I cannot say whether the CO2 and other gases in some way helps our Mother's birthing. But keep in mind that this "birthing" is going on upon all of the worlds of our system, not just our Earth Mother; and that following the ejection-birth of their core-eggs each world ascends to the next higher position of our system, and its higher density. For our Earth Mother it will be the highest density-Morning Star position. There, according to the knowledge we have preserved, we recieve our highest life, joining all the perfected children of the Morning Stars throughout Creation-- the loma katsinam who serve the Great Spirit in the administration of Creation.

The greatest truths are simple, i'tupko, they tell us to live in a humble, loving, and unselfish way with faith in a greater power than ourselves, most imminently being our Mother Earth. Although I understand why people are searching for greater understanding of their existences and the mysterious events occurring in the world, it is good not to fill our minds with too much analysis-- as always, balance is important.

naawakna nihqe kyaptsita - with love and respect,
a brother

(Message edited by upaava on June 14, 2009)
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1254
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2009 - 11:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Whitley said:

quote:

The sun is not in a normal state. There is just NO solar activity. A typical solar minimum has about 475 spotless days. This one so far is at around 700, I believe. Solar minima result in cooler weather on earth, which right now is a huge blessing but also a danger because the 'no global warming' crowd will be out there saying do nothing, and when the sun gets rolling again, we will be in a hell of a fix.

No matter what, increasing carbon dioxide remains a problem.


We're not quite at 700 spotless days just yet, the current count is 640, and can be viewed here. Still unusual though.

It has been fascinating to observe the AGW advocates quietly move to the defensive over the last few years. It was only a very short time ago that you would get heckled in forums for even *suggesting* that natural forcings were capable of overwhelming what was perceived as "clearly" an anthropogenic signal. One of the reasons I still post here is because this site usually manages to handle the topic from a more reasonable middle ground.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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Chr15t05
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Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1256
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Thursday, June 18, 2009 - 7:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

We've discussed bias in the surface station temperature data before in this thread. I recently spotted another fine example in a blog I read.

The short version is that the main temperature gauge at Honolulu airport this week recorded about a dozen record high temperatures, which were published in the media. Fortunately this was considered odd enough to send someone out to actually check the sensor. When they checked the readings with their calibration thermometer, it was discovered that the sensor was displaying temperatures 2-3 degrees higher. On the day the sensor was replaced the temperature immediately dropped from 89 to 86 degrees F.

Now here's the bizarre part. After the sensor change, it was decided to KEEP the erroneous readings within the data. The NOAA's reasoning was that a bias of a couple of degrees was "not significant enough" to warrant questioning the wider data. (Let's just keep in mind that the entire recorded warming of the 20th Century is ~0.6 degrees.) Thus, the high temperature records stand, even though in reality they clearly do not. That's some good science, guys - nice job.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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fortwynt
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Username: fortwynt

Post Number: 9205
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Friday, June 19, 2009 - 10:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

imagine my shock
Amare et sapere vix deo conceditur
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1257
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Tuesday, June 23, 2009 - 7:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Interestingly the variance between satellite based temperature readings and averaged land station data appears to be increasing. These data should be reasonably matched, however the land station averages are now curiously recording global temperatures as consistently higher than satellite readings. To put this variance in perspective, here is a comparison for the global temperature in May:

UAH Satellite - 16th warmest May in a record of 31 years.

RSS Satellite - 16th Warmest May in a record of 31 years

GISTEMP (Station Data) - 5th Warmest May in 130 years

HadCRUT3 (Station Data) - 5th Warmest May in 160 years.

So here we see the dilemma. In a field where apparently the science is settled, last month was either among the warmest ever recorded, or just a little below average, depending on which records you favour. Very odd indeed.

Chris

(Message edited by Chr15t05 on June 23, 2009)
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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Mark
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Username: mark

Post Number: 1989
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Tuesday, June 23, 2009 - 9:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

This winter may be warmer due to El Niño being active in the Pacific again, if I heard correctly.

Maybe there's a 70-year cycle to consider; it seems whenever the weatherperson does his homework and announces the record high temps for this date in history, the 1930's comes up often.
Early 50's too.


esoterica,
is there someplace where the temperature is held in check yearround?

...yeah, Fiji.
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1260
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 6:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

According to NOAA, El Nino is here. After two La Nina years it will be interesting to watch how global weather patterns shift. This El Nino is occurring within a cool phase of the Pacific Oscillation, something we have not seen in several decades, so it will also be interesting to compare to more recent El Ninos.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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animalspirits
Senior Member
Username: animalspiritstalstarcom

Post Number: 5188
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 8:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

That usually means fewer horrible-canes for us in Fla. Of course, Andrew was an El Nino hurricane...so..


Understand that all things are sacred--yet nothing is sacred.

~Yotee Coyote
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miaree9
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Username: miaree9

Post Number: 3239
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 2:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

I found this short article interesting: Global warming: Our best guess is likely wrong.
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1262
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 6:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

Yeah, I don't know about that one, Miaree. I've seen the article posted all over, but I'm not sure exactly what point it is trying to make. In order to compare the present period of warming to the Palaeocene-Eocene thermal maximum you have to make some rather massive assumptions about that period.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."
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Chr15t05
Senior Member
Username: chr15t05

Post Number: 1263
Registered: 8-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 6:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post

If anyone's interested in the continuing divergence between land station and satellite temperature measurements, we have the following so far for June.

Our two satellites, RSS and UAH, both trended down from May, recording June as being just smidgen off the average temperature for their 1979-99 base period (0.075 and 0.01 respectively).

GISS land station averages, however, disagree significantly with both satellites trending up for June to post a whopping warm anomaly of 0.6. This makes it the largest June temperature anomaly since the 1998 el nino. I await the headlines.

Just more interesting times in climatology I guess.

Chris
"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."